Forums >Racing>2024 Advanced Training and Racing Thread (still competitive jerks)
Man, oh man, our weather is turning... gonna hit low 70s today, so I am going to try to get in double digits... 10+ sounds like a good goal for a very spring-like Sunday.
Hope the weather is fine where you are!
be curious; not judgmental
RP Good point regarding the wind at MP lol. Keep your chin up on the job search. Sorry it's been rough.
darkwave It seems like some days my right leg has better balance, and some days my left. What do we make of this? I have been actively working on balance and abductor strength regardless. It feels like I am gaining stability. Maybe just need to be patient like RP seems to be suggesting. Also that's an interesting discovery regarding the legs following the arms. Probably something everyone can learn form.
dktrotter Sorry to hear the injuries persist. Really hoping you bounce back soon. Sounds like there's still hope for that marathon, especially if you keep healing over the next 2-3 weeks.
Steve Very nice long run race workout. You're looking strong.
My Week
Let this be a down week volume wise both so I could taper for the race and to let my IT band chill out. Might give a race roport for the 10 mile but it will be short. Most of it felt kind of steady and there's not a ton to say. This year a bunch of people passed me throughout the race, the opposite of last year. I saw 59:0X on the watch with the finish around the corner, tried to kick hard but then gassed out pretty badly. Like wheezing. Missed my goal by seconds but still took 94 seconds off of last years time on this course. Onward...
Steve - great job on the LR / race combo. A few years ago you would've been stoked with that time in a full-on race effort, now you're running it as a workout.
mmerkle - gotta take the improvement!
3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)
10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)
* Net downhill course
Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!
Up next: Still working on that...
"CONSISTENCY IS KING"
Fishyone - I'm about a week late, but that was a pretty big week and a great long run! Strength training is the way to go. You should see some running economy improvement. About that hunger, I only used to get that if I ran at the end of day without eating. Also only when I'm thinner. I can chug along now all day on my fat reserves.
RP - Hang in there. You will be in a new job sooner or later.
Krash - Crazy long run. I can get bored on longer runs and I also think about what else I could be doing with that time/energy. Always sucks the joy out of it for me. Up to about 12 miles, it's ok, then I start to contemplate the costs.
SteveChCh - Congrats on the 1/2 effort. That's a huge confidence booster!
AndyTN - I'm sore the first 2-3 times I lift and never really after that. Still get sore from combining lifting with really hard training runs. I used to do some burnout type lifts, then I was really really sore. Like curling to failure. Dropping down 10 lb. and immediately starting again. Keep doing that until I fail on like 5 lb. dumbbells. That will really wreck you for a few days or longer as you get older.
Mr MattM - Yeah we are hitting the high 70s now in FL. I'm not ready for summer.
Mr MattM coaching RP on his work manifesto:
dktrotter - My PF is the worst when I wake up for a few minutes. Dull ache otherwise particularly if I sit or lay down for awhile. It's only had sharp pains once on a run and that was a 800 interval where I was cornering in some uneven grass to go around some walkers. It does hurt at the end of longer runs or even a longish run if i push the pace. I have noticed that any twist in my foot while doing things really feels bad. I'm just resigned to taking off time at the end of March after my 5k, or sooner if it blows up. I would probably use a few weeks to rest, then start a hardcore lifting and stretching routine while focusing on diet and weight loss. Hopefully I would come back stronger and lighter after a few weeks and maybe even be injury free.
Sorry to hear your injury is dragging. It's very frustrating when you are mentally strong but your body can't hold up. I've known a lot of serious marathoners that dealt with that. 3 ~2:20 or better guys I'm friends with couldn't stay healthy in their early to mid 20s. 1 guy couldn't even train and complete 10ks without getting injured. But college is the 10k distance, so he was stuck training for it.
I had the same experience. I went in for PT when my hip was in bad shape 4-5 years ago and they had me do all the exercises, and then they wanted me to keep coming back to do them, but after 2 visits, it seemed easy enough to do them at home. My issues with PT and sports medicine doctors, is that 75% of them have no business being involved in sports, because they just want you to rest and recover. The other 25% get it, and they are like here is what I can pump into your body to keep you going until your event. But that's only useful if you are injured in the homestretch and you can last.
mmerkle - Sweet 10 mile race, so close to sub 60!
My update:
Another weekly mileage high, averaged 8:50 pace, which is my fastest average. I've been doing a crappy job of strength training and plyo the last couple weeks. I am going to make a plan this week and start working it into the routine. I only did a 3x800 day this week. Was planning to go harder today, but kids activities didn't work out. Probably for the best with my foot hurting a lot, will go hard tomorrow.
The 3x800 was dispiriting. 6:10/6:03/6:06 paces. So, so, so slow. It really highlights how for off I've dropped over the years and how far off a decent time I am at any race distance. This is the 3rd time I've done 3-4 x 800 and it was the fastest, but it's still slower than I could run a mile as 9 year old and it's half as far...Anyhow, once I get lighter on my feet, I will make it out to a track one day and try to figure out how to run fast again.
I'm totally healthy other than the PF, which is pretty bad, but holding. It's much worse after hard runs and longer runs. Hoping it can hold up another 27 days for my sub 20 5K attempt. If the foot gets much worse, I'll try to run a sub 20 on another solo time trial before I pack it in and recuperate.
One thing I've noticed is that I'm wearing the heel off my running shoes. I can't help but wonder if that is related to my foot and other issues. Even at 9 min pace, I'm kind of shuffling, running like I'm avoiding impact. Somewhere around like 8:30 pace, I think my form gets more regular, and sub 8, I'm actually taking real strides rather than speed shuffling. Maybe this is just what getting old is like, but I also think all roads come back to my excess weight. If I get down closer to 160, I am hoping that 8:00 pace is my easy pace and maybe that cures a lot of problems. I got down to 173 this week, from 187 last summer, matching my lowest weight in several years, so that's going well. I'm concerned that summer heat/humidity is going to force me to run every run medium or hard heart rate to run at a running pace. I may have to think about joining a gym so I can run indoors this summer? Anyway, on to the next week.
Mother of Cats
How big is the discrepancy between left and right? I honestly wouldn't worry about something like 51/49 - especially if it goes back and forth between 51/49 and 49/51. Some of this just could be where you are running - if you are running somewhere with camber, I would expect your r/l balance to be affected by that.
If you're seeing something like 53/47 consistently, then that could point to something. Or perhaps it could just be that your body is not symmetric.
BTW, nice job on the 10 miler. We need to find you a faster 10 miler. Cherry Blossom would be the obvious option, but it's the same weekend as Salisbury.
DKTrotter - regarding how fast to run when coming back, this is a helpful article. Metabolic Concepts In Return To Running – iRunFar
RP - sorry about the job search difficulties. I hate job searching.
Mr Matt M - funny that you call low 70s good running weather
Steve - it is really great to see how far your fitness has come!
Marky_Mark - another solid week. And the Strava titles keep creating more questions than they answer...
CK- early June sounds perfect for another forum encounter! As for the Stryd and different shoes - I've played with it, and you can see differences in how high the foot goes during the return part of the cycle.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
Steve- Really solid LR/Race. I've never tried to do the race/training run combo...
Merk- Sorry you missed your goal by just a few seconds Very frustrating to be that close. Super effort and you gave it everything so I think your pacing was probably about right.
Matt- I think I'm a little behind wherever you are weather-wise. 19F for the LR today! Luckily no wind to speak of so it wasn't that bad.
DKT- These are the days that Florida weather sounds pretty nice.
My week:
Uscheduled rest day Thursday but it was probably a good time for a day anyway. The treadmill pyramid was awesome. My paces for the 5K and 10K segments were significantly faster than I would do on the track/roads so it was a nice mental boost
5K 18:36 (2023), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:24:37 (2023), full 2:58:36 (2015)
Hot Weather Complainer
Thanks all.
Fishy - You're stacking so many good weeks together. Is it 7 weeks to go now?
mt - Just keep racking up weeks like that and you'll be back where you want to be before you know it.
RP - Hmm. Not sure you need generic corporates who don't know your situation explaining what you're doing wrong.
MrMatt - I'm sure it comes from a good place though!
dorothea - I think it's impossible for me to have too much sodium. I was drenched in salt again yesterday.
Motorway Half Marathon Race Report
As everyone knows, my main goal is conquering the cramp monster in the marathon in 8 weeks. I've been hitting mileage records for the last few months and training harder, but smarter, than I ever have before. Those who have been here for a while will remember my many failed attempts to go sub 1:30 from 2017-21 including near misses and some bad crashes.
This race is part of the build up to the Christchurch marathon on April 21, 8 weeks away. The plan was to incorporate some easy running beforehand and run progressively faster. I was looking at 1:28-29 until I got sick 2 weeks ago, very mild and the symptoms suggested Covid, and I didn't decide to run it until Wednesday. I've had sinus pain and fatigue throughout the 2 weeks leading in but it was nothing I'd normally worry about.
Given that, I thought sub 1:30 would be a better, and quite easily achievable goal (what a change a few years makes). The forecast was good, light wind and coolish temperatures (16C at the start - 60F - increasing to 20C by the end - 68F). For an A race, I'd want much cooler.
I arrived at the athletics stadium about an hour before the race (9am start - way too late in mid summer), and did my 7km easy paced warm up. It felt extremely comfortable, and some high cloud made it feel quite cool, almost autumn like. My heart rate, however, told a different story, hovering around 140 which is way higher than normal for that pace. I wasn't anxious, maybe just a bit excited to run a race instead of my usual training.
By start time, the cloud was gone but it didn't feel too warm. There's a 5km and a 10km which start at the same time. The gun goes and we start with 1.5 laps of the track before heading across some grass towards the motorway pathways. It crossed my mind on the grass that it would suck if I'm hurting on the way back. I should note that my coach set up the workout which I had on my watch, and paused it after the 7km warm up. I didn't note the time, so in terms of the race, I was basing everything off the splits. I count about 45 people in front of me on the track but within the first few km I pass a fair few, and assume they're doing the 5km and 10km. I assume wrong, because at each turnaround, 3 from the 10km come back past, and 1 from the 5km. Most of them are people miscalculating the half.
I get stuck behind people a bit in the first few km, which is probably a good thing, with splits of 4:18, 4:14, 4:13, 4:15, 4:15. I don't feel like I'm working too hard but I can tell it's warming up, with no cloud left. There's a slight breeze to run into which is nice for some cooling, but I still try and grab a drink to pour over my head at 4km. A guy in front of me grabs the water I was aiming for (just like in Melbourne when I ran my PB) so I miss out. All feels good though and I keep it steady over some minor bumps and false flats (up and down) for 4:15, 4:11, 4:15, 4:15, 4:15. At 8km I have my first down period where I don't feel great. But I quickly work through it, and remind myself that I'll have a slight tailwind on the way back. I had one Maurten gel at the start, and my partner hands me a 500ml Precision 1500 drink at about 10km. I drink it over the next 2km or so, and I feel pretty bad as I don't often drink much at half marathon pace, but I tell myself over and over that I'm better off forcing it down.
There's a small dogleg after the first turnaround, then we're on our way back. I've been picking people off for the whole first half, but now with 9km to go I'm running solo. I can see a girl with 2 guys who seem to be pacing her off in the distance and I focus on slowly reeling them in. At 14km when the plan was to kick the pace down, I realise this is a tough day. There's a slight breeze behind me, but the cooling effect is gone and the sun is facing me. I notice how much I'm sweating and think that I probably should have planned for 2 of my high sodium drinks.
There's a small loop at about 15km that includes a small climb and a gravel path. My splits have been 4:15, 4:15, 4:09, 4:12, 4:12 so I feel like I'm on track for sub 1:30 even if I lose a bit of time, but I know I'll have to work hard for it. I also want to protect my place because at the 2 turnarounds, I calculate I must be close to top 3 for my age group. The 16th km ticks over in 4:14 and it's now straight back to the stadium, along the path I've run 100 times. There's a small hill early in that km but I feel like I attack it nicely and it definitely seems like the 3 in front are coming back to me. I tell myself it's 5km of work left, but I realise this is nothing like Melbourne where I got stronger as I went. It's now quite hot for a hard workout (23C/74F but feels much hotter) - but I've done a few in hotter conditions than this recently. It's definitely not killer heat but it also isn't PB heat.
I'm ticking off each km now, with the next 3 going in 4:16, 4:13, 4:10. I guess I'm lifting a little, but it feels really hard and I'm tempted to ease off a bit to ensure no blow up. The target in front of me helps, and as I pull up next to them I realise it's a guy from my coaching group pacing his wife, along with Chris Dryden, who represented New Zealand at the world half marathon champs last year.
We leave the motorway path and head across some asphalt to the grass again, with the 20th km flashing up in 4:11. I feel like 1:30 is safe, and across the 300 metres or so on the grass the pace is really dropping, it feels like soft sand, and I'm cooked. Thank goodness for the track in the stadium, where there is 1.5 laps to go. I don't know my overall time but based on the splits thought I was pretty safe. As I go past the start/finish I see the clock says 1:28:25 and I realise I have little room for error. I know that 4:15 pace translates to about 100 seconds for 400 metres because I've done a few 15 x 400 sessions at that pace. So even though my legs are gone I know I have to lift, because I want that sub 1:30. As I turn into the final straight I can see I have about 30 seconds so I push all the way to the finish and sneak though in 1:29:55. My mates' wife runs a big PB, but wanted sub 1:30 and misses my 6 seconds. I see on other people's Strava variations from 21.25 - 21.4km so it was slightly long. I'm really glad I didn't ease off when I really wanted to late. Even though it's some way off my best, I'm really happy with that effort on tired legs in conditions I definitely wouldn't choose for an A race.
8 weeks left, and after a slight down week I'm looking forward to 3-4 big weeks before the taper starts.
5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:29:54 6/24
2024 Races:
Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55
Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024 1:27:34
Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024 DNF
Wellington Marathon June 23, 2024 3:29:54
Foster Park Run July 20, 2024 19:02
Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024
Timaru Ten October 26, 2024
...
Thanks all. Fishy - You're stacking so many good weeks together. Is it 7 weeks to go now?
51 days but who's counting..... Thanks, the training feels so good right now I'm in camp Keen and part of me doesn't want to break it up with silly things like races. What with the taper and recovery it seriously hinders great training
I'm going to dig into your race report at work later today. Thanks for posting!!
Really solid week MT! I run almost all of my runs fasted with just coffee (only the lunchtime runs are 5 hours + after breakfast) Maybe that's why I'm always thinking about food on my runs.
I only look at average weekly pace to compare year over year training cycles in hindsight. In that way it's a good visual to see where each cycle started and ended.
I love training in the heat. Not so much racing, but training? Hell, yeah! Of course, I don't typically have 90%+ humidity... though I am a Gulf Coast boy so I know what that's like...
Sunshine on my shoulders makes me happy. Sunshine in my eyes can make me cry. Sunshine on the water looks so lovely. Sunshine almost always makes me high...
70s isn't good for racing, but I love it for training!
19F? Nah... I'm so over that!
Absolutely. Funny thing is, even when I've worked with someone that was 'not a good fit' for whatever position, I've still wished them the best and hoped for them to find the right landing spot. Same with people I've worked with that were rock stars that moved on... if they get a better opportunity for growth, and their own personal success, I wish them well and celebrate with them, even when it means I have a difficult position to fill. I want everyone to succeed.
Are we there, yet?
I'm way behind in responding to posts.
Marky_Mark: Nice HM at Coatesville (Coatesville is also a town about 10 miles west of me). I miss the friendly rivalries from my track days. They pushed all of us to run better.
darkwave: How can I not be intrigued by a race called By George 5K. Splits look like a nice progression run. A black SUV? Makes me think you might work for some secret government agency.
merkle: So was the highlight meeting up with darkwave or the OA win? Nice that you got a break in the weather. Seems like weekend storms has become a norm in some places.
AndyTN: Takes a great photo of your son. Why do none of my race photos look that good?
RP: Performance review are a waste of time, and half the time all they show is that management has no idea what you are doing. That other half is still a waste of time because management is on top of everything and all it is is a rehash of what you both know.
dktrotter: Do you have a link to that article on the 5 women runners?
Steve: Those are amazingly consistent splits.Also emphasizes how much a few seconds can mean subjectively, though there's very little difference between 1:29:55 and 1:30:00.
Summation of my last couple weeks training:
I've been pretty consistent in getting about 30 mpw. I'm over 100 miles for the month already.I've have several good workouts including a strong progression run and a short interval workout.
Increased my longest run-walk to 9-miles which took me slightly over 2 hours.
Biggest issue has been misjudging how hard some of the runs were and needing extra recovery.
First race since last June is March 9th, a 6-hour race that will give me a better idea of where I and what I need to do to be ready for my 12-hour at Six Days in the Dome and a fall goal race yet to be determined.
03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles
05/11 - D3 50K, 9:11:09 06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour, 35.82 miles 10/12 - Hainesport 12-Hour
Wcrunner, how are you feeling about your ultra in a few weeks? It’s great to see that on the calendar! And thanks for sharing that 48-hour resource… good to know in case I ever get the urge to (ha!-nope. Let’s see if I survive another ultra, first). I’ve seen the 10-day training cycle and have been considering it for myself too, once I get back to training.
Getting both nervous and excited to get back to racing. It's a big unknown since I haven't worked back up to my preferred mileage. I'm setting a very modest goal of only 20 miles for the 6 hours as I expect to be doing a lot of walking the second 3 hours, though I think 24 miles is a long shot possibility. Not quite time to begin stalking the weather. I'm hoping we don't get a late cold spell, but it's been a crap shoot this year.
Mr MattM - I like the heat too. It’s the summer humidity that makes it hard. I live on a 1.25-1.5 mile wide stretch of an island between the intercoastal waterway and the ocean. So our humidity on a summer morning is typically 80-90%. Pre sunrise temp is like 82-85. Night time is usually hotter but lower humidity. Either way it makes hard workouts low quality. I historically have run a lot around noon, but with all my skin cancer issues, I’ve had to nix that. No matter how much sunscreen I apply, it isn’t good enough. I usually run any daytime runs in a long sleeve shirt hat and glasses year round, so I’m always very warm 😜
flavio80/fishy - I don’t care too much about average pace on any week, but it is nice to see it drop over time. If nothing else, it frees up more of my time.
SteveChCh - your race report was a good read. You joined Keen in the wife beaters club! Hmm…might need a rebrand on that club name, it’s a working title. Super consistent km splits especially on tired legs. Things look awesome for your marathon!
Speaking of 140 heart rate, temperatures, and average weekly paces, my target HR for pure aerobic easy days is 140. Back in the Fall, I was averaging 10-11 minutes per mile for weekly pace in the heat when wearing my HR monitor and sticking to under 140. I made the mistake of making up a missed 6 mile day with a 12 mile day. I don’t count that in my long runs, because I walked more than half of it. It was probably the hottest most humid night I’ve ever run/walked. 2:46:06 to cover 12.05 miles at a blistering 13:47 pace. At the end I gave up on HR and just walked fast, and my HR was like 145 on completely flat ground. Didn’t take any water, because it didn’t occur to me it would be a near 3 hour event. What a shit show.
Overweight per CDC BMI
Steve - nice result with the warm temps. Did you get any chances to dump water on your back/shirt? Whenever I run a race which the temp is at least 60F, I am always proactively soaking my shirt to help keep me cool. No idea if you had the opportunity but I will also go plant frozen water bottles on the course to make sure I am getting cold water on myself since the water at the stations is always warm.
Andy - Are you eating enough fiber to digest all that meat though? And I don't mean necessarily the greens that you hate, it could be oats, or black beans.Soreness usually comes from total workout volume rather than the weight itself in my experience.So you could experiment with reducing the number of reps in each set.
I never heard about fiber helping with protein absorption but just to help your digestion to be more consistent. I really don't pay attention to fiber other than taking my daily fiber pills. Either way, I will experiment with the weights in a couple weeks but at least I know my lower body is stronger than a year ago. I am probably progressing with the weight lifting more than I remember since the workouts themselves are getting easier.
10k trail race yesterday for my son to conclude the winter series, which he got 1st place for 9 and under. The weather was hot for "winter" at 74F and sunny so many people were taking walking breaks without any opportunity for heat acclimation. Nolan was doing fairly well for the first 4 miles given the heat and looked like he would end up around 55 minutes. Going through the woods, he tripped over a root while going downhill and did a belly flop onto the trail. He got scraped up pretty good in several spots and I had to help him walk for about 3 minutes while he was crying, which obviously slowed his time a lot. He was able to get recomposed and ended up running the last mile in about 7:40 while passing 10 people. I was just really proud of how he was able to persevere after a rough crash like that. He ended up at 57:04, which was almost 7 minutes faster than his time from last year. On to Track season now.
Memphis / 38 male
5k - 20:39 / 10k - 43:48 / Half - 1:34:47 / Full - 3:38:10