2024 Advanced Training and Racing Thread (still competitive jerks) (Read 215 times)

Running Problem


Problem Child

     

    I got my rejection this morning.  There's one solution to this - run faster get older without losing speed.

     

    Very nice 5km.

     

    I see your point.

     

    injury I think I'm dealing with a left foot injury, but it's POSSIBLE due to shoes. I have the Pegasus 39 and 40. The 40 I have at work and it's what I do MOST of my running in. I get pain in my left foot pretty quickly after I start running, and it doesn't go away. I run through it. I DON'T get this with the 39s and didn't notice it with my Vaporfly super shoes during the 5k. I've narrowed it down to the shoes because I took an entire weekend off, didn't feel the pain, and felt it instantly with the shoes at lunch.

    If this was in every pair of shoes I'd take time off to let it heal. I'm not training for an upcoming PR in the marathon (yet?) so there isn't an absolute need to be running miles. I can take time off and come back better.

    I have run while sick. FEVER is the most miserable and provides no benefit. Just let the body cook it off. Stuffy nose, aches, tired....running can be accomplished. It isn't as fun as an easy run when you don't feel sick, but it's possible. I learned this here. You get the miles in, and the aerobic base. It can prove to be mentally strengthening as well. Doing a workout where you kinda feel like trashed garbage but can still run fast is somehow awesome. If you can't hold the paces you chalk it up to a good attempt.

     

     

    Depression....well thats a bitch NO ONE wants to deal with. At least not me.

    Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

    VDOT 53.37 

    5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

    mt79


      dk - Looks like your mileage is coming back up nicely.  Hopefully you can find the joy in running again.  17-20 mile long runs are pretty hard on the body.  Hope your body is ready for the impact.  I'm thinking about bundling my injuries, kind of like bundling insurance.  So instead of taking time off now for this one injury, I'll wait for the injuries to accumulate and then rest them all at once to save time!  The PF  will have 0 impact on my 5k other than the pain when I first go off the line.  I'm more concerned long term that it will lead to something surgical.  I weigh that against the health and running impacts of losing weight and building muscle, and I keep pressing forward.

       

      mmerkle - You will come back rested.  You have been doing a lot of miles and aerobic fitness is super sticky.  You will be running another PR before you know it.

       

      DavePNW - Great week.  Don't get too excited and overcook things now.  Fast long runs are a real killer.  It is nice to run with people.  I haven't really run with anyone in 25 years, other than meeting up with a running club in Arlington, VA in 2014 or 2015 for a few runs.  As a teenager I ran a lot with people about my own ability, which wasn't that easy to find, but they were really focused on longer races, so I eventually just trained solo most of the time on vanilla type runs.  I definitely think it would be cool to pace a race, something easy like a 1/2 marathon.  I've never run a 1/2 before, but it's not too long of an event, so I could enjoy the rest of my day.

       

      darkwave - Wow, that's a big week.  Pretty hard Tuesday/Friday.  I hear you on choosing workouts.  I cut my only workout off this week after 2 miles, because there were just too many aches and pains all over.  Figured why inflame things with 11 days to go for my race.

       

      Running Problem - Not bad!  You should be able to get back to your PR shape pretty soon.  I don't trust VDOT for the marathon.  Think it works pretty well 1/2 M and down.  I'm not sure it is the right metric for such a long event, at least not for 3 hour folks.  I hope you get some good new on NY.  One thought about your interval workouts 800-1200, you don't really want to do overly hard workouts.  Once you get your HR up on intervals, you should think about what pace is enough to keep it there.  Going faster is unnecessary.  On speed days, you shouldn't be working your VO2 system too much.  Short reps, long rest.  Don't mix and match the purpose. 

       

      flavio80 - Those speedy days are long over.  I'm curious if I could run a sub-60 400 meter this year.  I'm afraid I will break apart like a shuttle re-entering the atmosphere.  A trail run would be a nice change of pace, and you might win it.  What you want is lots of hills and lots of turns. I did most of my training on hilly trails as a young guy.  It uses more leg strength, so you should be golden! 

       

      wcrunner2 - The body is fickle.  All my running injuries come off the best/fastest training.  I've learned to not get excited and not do crazy hard workouts anymore.  It's just fool's gold.  Keep plugging along and your aerobic fitness will win out.

       

      SteveChCh - Sorry about your bad news.  As long as you enjoy the running, there is always another race.

       

      Marky - Good luck on your ramp up.  Finish the series a high note!

       

      My week:

       

      Took my mileage to a new high this cycle, same on the long run.  Quit my only hard day on Wednesday, as I was feeling too brittle.  I'm going to bank on aerobic fitness and weight loss for my 5k Saturday to improve my 20:41 from January 27.  Still going to go after sub-20, but the more I run these bridges, the less confident I feel.  Regardless of Saturday's result, I'll turn the page to preparing for sub-19 in June.  I'm so far ahead of where I was in 2015 when I ran my 3:09, it's pretty satisfying.   I ran 18:47 that year, but not until Sep 11. 

       

      My weight loss is really going smoothly.  Down from 187.6 in July  to 171 on Sunday (~7.5kg).  My goal it too lose that much weight again in the coming months.  I'm also getting more muscular, so I've lost more fat than the raw numbers.  I'm intentionally going slowly in order to preserve muscle.  I had planned on going super fast to get light and avoid wear and tear, but when I got hurt, calf and then PF, I figured I might as well go slow at that point and not be miserable.

       

      I'm going to take this Friday off, first day off since December 30.  I will feel awesome on Saturday.  I think I need to get a smaller iPhone, mine is pretty heavy to carry on these race efforts.  I hope my time-tested strategy of no fuel and no water carries me home!  I know it's controversial 'round these parts .                           

       

      Weekly for period: From: 03/11/2024 To 03/17/2024

      <caption>Weekly Grid</caption>
      Date mi Duration Avg/mi
      03/11 8.60 01:18:46 09:10
      03/12 7.80 01:08:00 08:43
      03/13 0.84 00:06:56 08:15
      03/13 2.04 00:13:59 06:51
      03/13 3.40 00:30:51 09:04
      03/14 8.54 01:20:22 09:25
      03/15 11.12 01:43:32 09:19
      03/16 7.78 01:12:12 09:17
      03/17 8.67 01:18:15 09:02

      Totals: Time: 08:52:53 - 🦅Imperial: 58.78 mi - Metric: 94.57 km

      DavePNW


         

        Anyways that's part of the reason I've retired from marathons lol.

         

        You don’t need a reason for that!

        Dave

        DavePNW


           

          I got my rejection this morning.  There's one solution to this - run faster.

           

           

          Sorry. 

          They posted that they took the fastest 19% of applicants for each AG. Which I guess seems as fair as anything. Maybe more complaints because the whole thing was confusing to some people, with half times and full times and 10k equivalents. No matter what you do, people will be disappointed. This way of doing it did result in some weirdness. A 65yo woman could beat her marathon qualifying standard by 40 minutes and not get in. There’s just not much meaning to the qualifying standard at that point.

          Dave

          Running Problem


          Problem Child

            40 minutes and you don’t get in? WOW.

            Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

            VDOT 53.37 

            5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

            flavio80


            Intl. correspondent

              WCRunner - I should qualify that with "I was not able to find track meets for master runners".
              The calendars I checked do have track meets but they're either for PROs or for youth runners.
              I wonder if perhaps a lot of these tiny track meets are advertising on Facebook, in which case I'd never know, cause I'm not willing to sift through the shit stream that are Facebook groups feed to find a race.
              I might send an email message to the local athletics club though to see if they know of anything.

               

              WCRunner / MT - What would you classify as the bread and butter of 800m training ?
              Like for instance for a 5k race I consider bread and butter a sequence of workouts like the one below done at current 5K pace with jogging rests:
              12x400w400, 8x600w400, 6x800w400, 5x1000w400, 4x1200w400, 3x1600w600 - I'm usually in top shape after the 1000s already.
              Is there something similar for 800m training?

               

              RP - unlike with marathons you can go again in 4 weeks and can probably run 15 seconds faster just on better pacing alone.
              Your ego will quickly forget this one once you're running close to 18 minutes again.

               

              Mark - Oh, I didn't mean that. I meant that marathoning felt like a job. You bet I'll be competing to the best of my ability on all these races.

               

              MT - thanks, yeah, Porto is a wonderful city to train for trails, it's like I cannot get less than 100m in elevation in a run, so very hilly, with a huge variety of sidewalks and narrow streets.
              By the way, there's zero chance I'll win any of these trail races.
              There's some serious running talent and depth around these parts, and due to sponsors they go to EVERY race to collect instafuck clicks. (Instafuck is a trademark of forumite cinamongirl 😁)
              This is also a relatively larger trail race with more than 1000 finishers.
              I'd be very happy with a top 20 placement though.

              PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021

              Up next: some 800m race (or time trials) / Also place in the top 20% in a trail race

              Tool to generate Strava weekly

              Running Problem


              Problem Child

                flavio I just kind of don’t want to run. Reminds me of a time my doctor asked me ‘have you lost interest in things you like doing?’

                Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                VDOT 53.37 

                5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

                mt79


                  Flavio - You can keep your long runs, vanilla runs, mileage for aerobic capacity.  Tempos can be shorter and faster.  Good to do 25-40 mins.  Keep your V02 workouts.  Then you need speed.  I’ll touch on that below.  

                  For 800 mindset, be comfortable with positive splits, 2-4 seconds is pretty normal.  For the race, a good strategy is go out hard for 200, relax for 300-400 and then fight the last 200-300.  The first 200 is extra fast, because it’s a standing start, even your first 400 should be a positive split effort wise and maybe time wise.  You have to accept that you are going to be struggling at the end of every race, because you are fighting for seconds and tenths of seconds.  

                  For your sub-2:20, you will want to run something like 67-68 and then a 71.  So you need to tune your training for that 67.  So figure your first lap at 33.5/33.5 or 33/34.  So your speed work should be focused on 33-33.5 200s from standing start.  

                  So, practice 100s, 150s, 200s, 300s and focus on hitting 33 second 200 pace.  Your goal is to feel relaxed running these, your form should be great.  So start hard, get to pace, then relax and finish the rep.  10-12 x100, 8-10 x150, 8 x 200, 5-6 x 300.  Plenty of rest between.  These are the running equivalents of weight lifting.  You should be breathing normally before next rep.  

                  For keeping things fun, do 10-15 second all out hill sprints.  Do some 400s on the track, do some hard  300-400s uphill.

                   

                  When you get closer to race shape, practice some 500s at race pace, just 1 rep and then some fast 100s after.  Can also do one of my favorites, which is race pace 300, rest 15 seconds, all out final 100.  Maybe 3 of those.  

                  Note, I’m assuming you are close to 2:20 goal shape with these times.  If you are in 2:30 shape, target 2:25 and adjust all the 200s up to like 71 400, so 35.5 200.  Get to 2:22-2:23 then readjust to my suggestions above.  If you slower than 2:30, keep scaling it up 

                   

                  Word of caution.  Speed workouts are easy compared to intervals from a suffering standpoint, but you beat up your muscles.  Don’t overcook things and hurt your quads.  Your second easiest day of the week after easy runs should be the speed day.  Lots of rest between reps!

                   

                  You really do need to scale your pace to your current fitness and target 2-5 second improvements.  Also, you don’t have to do all the reps I listed right out of the gate.  Fine to start with 1/2 the volume and get used to running fast.


                  A lot of runners have never really targeted their anaerobic system and their speed.  It’s probably jarring for most people, and it’s probably super jarring at middle age and beyond.   Add 1 speed day per week and see how it goes!  You can probably do a long run, speed day, interval day and tempo day every week and be fine.  If not alternate tempo/ interval. 

                  I’m no expert or coach, so take from this what you will.

                  wcrunner2


                  Are we there, yet?

                     

                    WCRunner / MT - What would you classify as the bread and butter of 800m training ?
                    Like for instance for a 5k race I consider bread and butter a sequence of workouts like the one below done at current 5K pace with jogging rests:
                    12x400w400, 8x600w400, 6x800w400, 5x1000w400, 4x1200w400, 3x1600w600 - I'm usually in top shape after the 1000s already.
                    Is there something similar for 800m training?

                     

                    Training will differ depending on whether you're more a 400m/800m runner or an 800m/1500m runner. If the former I'd lean more heavily toward 200m and 300m intervals, for the latter more 400m intervals. Basically play to your strength. Learning to run fast but relaxed is a key, because it's easy to tie up and lose form in the last 200m of the race.  I like to work in some pyramid workouts structured this way: 200m, 300m, 400m, 400m at goal pace, 300m at goal pace - 2 seconds, 200m at goal pace - 4 seconds; equal distance jog recovery after each. So with 2:20 as the goal, that would be 35, 52.5, 70, 70, 51, 33.

                     2024 Races:

                          03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

                          05/11 - D3 50K, 9:11:09
                          05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour

                          06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.

                     

                     

                         

                    CommanderKeen


                    Cobra Commander Keen

                      Alright, I'm a little behind the times, but...

                       

                      Flavio - You ran sub 3 with a single gel AND in Torins? Dude, next time fuel a bit and take the bricks off your feet and you'll go sub 2:55 with ease! I'm beyond thrilled for you.


                      Andy - Congrats on the huge PR!


                      Steve - How's the recovery coming along? Bummer on missing out on NYC.


                      DWave - That's a heck of a week, nicely done.


                      RP - Nice job avoiding the Gaga treatment and snagging another mug. Also, aiming for 17:58? Pssh, I thought it would be more like you to aim for 17:57.
                      When's the next local 5k?
                      Race comparison overlays in Garmin? I need to know how to do this.


                      Good week, including a bit of travel for a somewhat spur-of-the-moment trip to the Dallas/Ft. Worth area with the kiddos for spring break. Aquarium, amusement park (DD3 really enjoyed a couple big roller coasters), botanical gardens. Fun stuff. Half marathon pacing duties in place of a LR this coming weekend. A 6-8 weeks ago I don't think I would have really been able to pull off a 90 minute half without some struggle but my fitness seems to have taken a couple jumps and it doesn't seem scary at all right now. Except for the *checks weather forecast* prediction for 25mph headwinds for the first half.

                       


                      Marathon nutrition - I think I've already been more towards the "high fuel" side of things as I've done 6 or so during the race (along with one right before), but have given thought to trying to hit that 100 gr carb/hr mark, which would be a high carb gel around every 25 minutes or so. Seems like a lot.

                       

                       

                      Weekly for period: From: 03/11/2024 To 03/17/2024

                      <caption>Weekly Grid</caption>
                      Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                      in ft
                      03/11 5x 2k 12.55 20.20 01:33:50 07:29 04:39 344
                      03/11 1 young archer 4.10 6.60 00:36:06 08:48 05:28 203
                      03/12 Forgot the headlamp 8.00 12.87 01:12:53 09:07 05:40 358
                      03/12 1 hawk 4.11 6.61 00:36:44 08:56 05:33 220
                      03/13 Four Corners (4 X 4 X 400) 10.46 16.83 01:21:15 07:46 04:50 203
                      03/13 Gettin' spicy 4.11 6.61 00:37:02 09:01 05:36 272
                      03/14 1 rabbit 8.00 12.88 01:16:08 09:31 05:55 344
                      03/15 The Ides of March are come, but are not yet gone. 10.11 16.26 01:24:24 08:21 05:11 495
                      03/15 Runch 4.11 6.61 00:35:06 08:32 05:19 190
                      03/16 Golf courses are rarely in the bad part of town. 15.36 24.71 02:11:18 08:33 05:19 971
                      03/17 1 beaver & partially spectating my first cricket match 5.00 8.05 00:46:36 09:19 05:47 230

                      Totals: Time: 12:11:22 - 🦅Imperial: 85.90 mi - Metric: 138.22 km

                      5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22

                       

                      Upcoming Races:

                       

                      OKC Memorial 5k - April 27

                      Bun Run 5k - May 4

                       

                      AndyTN


                      Overweight per CDC BMI

                        I appreciate the comments about my stride from those who looked at the race video. I know the higher cadence of ~190 is a good starting point and my feet don’t need to come back high like the pro’s, but I do feel like I am not using my calves and lower hamstrings enough to propel myself forward. Since my calves were the first muscle to get worn out late in the race, I need to work on strength in that area anyway. I have put in a lot of strength work for my upper hamstrings, butt, and hips but have not as much with my calves and lower hamstrings. Getting stronger in the lower legs will only help overall and I can work on my stride a bit to push off more with the lower muscles.

                         

                        Dave – I appreciate your comments about my pacing being all over the place even when that came during a very good PR. I will admit that I do get amped up and motivated when I get into a good rhythm during a race which causes surges in my pace. Besides one minor hill, the course was mostly false flats so no reason hills would cause big variations in my pace other than wind diminishing my motivation. I could probably pay attention a bit more to the splits just to make it more consistent but I don’t want hold myself back too much. I have always done better (mentally) when going out a bit aggressive and holding on at the end. Maybe aggressive even splits is what I need.

                         

                        Also, for those who commented about me taking a selfie at the finish line, I pulled out my phone about 30 seconds before the finish and took the selfie after I had crossed the finish mats and stopped my watch. After seeing how my face looked in that picture, I doubt I will do that again.

                        Memphis / 38 male

                        5k - 20:39 / 10k - 43:48 / Half - 1:34:47 / Full - 3:38:10

                        mt79


                          Well, my 5k on Saturday is going to be an adventure.  Forecast is 11-19 mph wind and 33 mph gusts.  It’s always the worst on the causeway, and absolutely awful at the top of the bridges.  This could be a humbling experience.  Will still aim for sub-20 until it’s not possible.

                          darkwave


                          Mother of Cats

                             

                            Sorry. 

                            They posted that they took the fastest 19% of applicants for each AG. Which I guess seems as fair as anything. Maybe more complaints because the whole thing was confusing to some people, with half times and full times and 10k equivalents. No matter what you do, people will be disappointed. This way of doing it did result in some weirdness. A 65yo woman could beat her marathon qualifying standard by 40 minutes and not get in. There’s just not much meaning to the qualifying standard at that point.

                             

                            I am *really* curious what the cut-offs were now.   Of course, you could argue that doing it by percentage is more fair than by minutes/seconds, because for the faster marathon times, a cutoff of "x minutes and y seconds" is a bigger percentage of your marathon time.  Put another way, it's a lot easier for a 4:00 marathoner to take 5 minutes off of their time than it is for a 3:00 marathoner to do so.

                             

                            For those of you who want to run NYC and don't get in...remember that there is always the option of running with me and fetching me cups of water at my command.

                             

                            MT79 - I'm really curious - which running club in Arlington VA?  (I happen to run with one of the Arlington VA running clubs, and have friends in each of the other clubs)

                            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                             

                            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                            Marky_Mark_17


                              Well, my 5k on Saturday is going to be an adventure.  Forecast is 11-19 mph wind and 33 mph gusts.  It’s always the worst on the causeway, and absolutely awful at the top of the bridges.  This could be a humbling experience.  Will still aim for sub-20 until it’s not possible.

                               

                              Wind is the worst. Last time I had really punishingly windy conditions on a race was on a multi-lap 10km course for National Road Champs a couple years ago.  Unfortunately, it was a headwind down the longest straight on the course.  Misery.

                              3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                              10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                              * Net downhill course

                              Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!

                              Up next: Still working on that...

                              "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                              mt79


                                 MT79 - I'm really curious - which running club in Arlington VA?  (I happen to run with one of the Arlington VA running clubs, and have friends in each of the other clubs)


                                Pentagon City Pacers.  Club is not really accurate, more like fun run group.