2024 Advanced Training and Racing Thread (still competitive jerks) (Read 246 times)

DavePNW


    dw - looking forward to taking some time to read your RR! Glad you included info on the para part of the process; we've all read plenty of Boston reports (although I never get tired of it!), but this aspect is new to most of us.

     

    Dorothea: UGH on your weather. For those who haven't checked: today is 31/51F, gradual warmup till Sunday is 67/83F.  You are certainly better equipped than most to handle heat, but NO ONE can race a good marathon under those conditions. This is a terrible time of year when there's always a risk of early season warmup. Spring races are that much tougher because all your training has been in cooler weather (well unless you live in Florida). They shouldn't schedule any marathons later than Boston, and no starting times should be later than 7:00. It looks like this one actually starts at 6:30, if I'm reading it right, so at least you have that going for you?

     

    My forecast is 47/61F, and a 7:00 start. It had been looking a few degrees cooler, which would be better, but I certainly won't complain if I get that. And I won't believe anything till a day or two out anyway. Regardless - I'm feeling tapered, and I've even slept pretty well the past few days which is unusual for me. Race day cannot get hear soon enough.

    Dave

    wcrunner2


    Are we there, yet?

      Playing catch up again.

       

      mmerkle: - Cold shower, brrr, no thank you!  Weird having to urinate multiple times late in the race. Could running into the wind have had any effect on your calves by altering your form?  Sub-3 is still good even if it wasn't what you hoped for.

       

      DavePNW: - You are so right about marathoning being almost a cult. I was amused one year after I'd run a 5K and a fellow runner mentioned something about how I'd be able to run a marathon one day if I kept working at it.  I didn't have the heart to tell him my PB was 2:54.

       

      AndyTN: - Sometimes I think breaking through a barrier like 20:00 is more mental than physical. It can also tempt you to train harder than you should. I was flirting with 19:00 one year and kept falling just short every race. I talked with my club coach and she suggested I slow down my 400m intervals by 2-3 seconds, that I was wearing myself out.  A few weeks after that I ran mid-18s.

       

      Dorothea: - That weather report sucks. And I'm expecting my May 11th race to be worse. There's a history there of hot and sunny or monsoon. On the flip side I ran a HM in Clearwater in January one year and the locals were dressed for Arctic conditions and it was only about 45F at the start. After the race there were two 6 foot table piled high with discarded clothing.

       

      SteveChCh: - Very nice pacing. Can't imagine why you would feel negative if you aren't puffing and struggling. You must have been passing a lot of runners by that point which would certainly put me in a positive mindset. And the time indicates you should beat your marathon PB by a large margin.

       

      darkwave: - Loved the detailed report. Had no idea of your early struggles because by the time I was able to start tracking you, you already had a 4:30+ lead. And Boston has changed so much since I ran it in 1970-72.  Start position, except for the elite runners, was first-come, first-serve. That's why I was at the back of the pack my first year, but my second I was close enough to the front that I could have tapped Frank Shorter on the shoulder.

       2024 Races:

            03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

            05/11 - D3 50K, 9:11:09
            06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.

       

       

           

      need2tri


        Thanks for the RR dw. it was a very interesting and informative blog.

        DavePNW


          Darkwave - your report is just about the best thing I’ve ever read here. I know you appreciate that BAA/BoA treated you like a competitor and not an inspirational story. But I hope it’s OK that I consider you an inspiration. And a competitor.

          Some comments/questions:

          •  The part where you were solo and realized the entire Boston crowd was cheering for you—just wow. 
          •  The part where you saw your name on the finish sign—also wow.
          •  All incredible stuff, but you’ve run as an elite/sub-elite before—was this one the best experience, or is there another you’d pick?
          •  With the water station issues, I couldn’t help but think they could have the para athletes wear some kind of special bib on their backs too.
          •  Do you plan to avoid hilly races in general? Of course Boston and NYC are special, but other than that?
          •  On your Vaporfly 3 issues—is it different than the 2? I’m still using the 2, but you can’t get them anymore so my next pair will have to be a 3. I don’t normally use them to run at easy pace anyway, but when I have, they felt fine. 
          •  The wreath does not belong in a Chipotle bag—it belongs on your head. You win one of those things, you wear it everywhere. 

          Dave

          Marky_Mark_17


            Darkwave - how good?!?!  That bit where you described the cheering would've been amazing, if not a little weird at first!  What a kickass feeling to see your name in those final 50m.  I know the feeling you describe in terms of being scared of getting run down in that last stretch - at that point it feels like you have a lot to lose which is not always an enjoyably way to finish the race!  But you got it done.

             

            Dave - I've raced in the VF2 and 3, and find them very similar. If anything, I was a little more conscious of the toe-off in the 3 - it didn't seem to affect pace / running at all, I just noticed it a little more.

             

            Good luck to Dave and Dorothea for this weekend. Sorry that weather forecast looks rubbish Dorothea.

            3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

            10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

            * Net downhill course

            Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!

            Up next: Still working on that...

            "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

            SteveChCh


            Hot Weather Complainer

              Good luck Dave and Dorothea.  Excited to see how your great block pays off Dave.  And Dorothea, it's lucky you run at noon in Florida!  It must make hot weather far more bearable.

               

              wcrunner - Yep, that marathon PR is the monkey on my back.  Even an average day should see it beaten by 10+ minutes.

               

              Flavio - Fair point, he did get his hands down in time.  His legs did seem to buckle but I'm sure he would have stayed upright if the finish area wasn't on grass.

               

              Dorothea - The weather was so perfect that it did help push me late in the race when I was comparing it to my last race in summer.

               

              Mark - You're right.  I do feel really good about running again, and that race is a big part of it.  I didn't do any real half-marathon specific training so to get my second best time is a good sign.  The multi-lap course was good for supporting and allowed me to run with my mate 4-5 times on his last lap.  But I've seen a video of the half leaders coming through Hagley Park and it looks pretty bad.  That would have been the busiest time probably and these guys are negotiating some packed narrow paths at 3 minute per km pace.  One year it will rain which will also make it pretty treacherous - there are lots of Autumn leaves which would be very slippery, the finish area could turn into a bog and to get around people in places you'd need to step on to the grass.  Fingers crossed we keep getting perfect weather.

               

              Belated week drop.  Good week after the calf scare on Monday, but I do think being cautious possibly saved my race.

               

              No race recovery for me this week with over 100km scheduled including 50 minutes in the marathon zone on sore and tired legs yesterday.  I had serious doubts about whether I could hold on but I did.  I think the last 11km or so of the race may feel similar to that.

               

              Weekly for period: From: 15/04/2024 To 21/04/2024

              <caption>Weekly Grid</caption>
              Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
              in m
              15/04 Stationary Bike 0.00 0.00 01:00:11 00:00 00:00 0
              16/04 Warm up 0.33 0.54 00:03:07 09:27 05:46 1
              16/04 Shakeout 3.89 6.25 00:32:31 08:22 05:12 5
              17/04 Warm up 0.34 0.55 00:03:07 09:10 05:40 0
              17/04 15 mins tempo 8.17 13.14 01:03:49 07:49 04:51 28
              18/04 Recovery 6.72 10.80 01:01:14 09:07 05:40 20
              20/04 Warm up 0.34 0.55 00:03:08 09:13 05:42 0
              20/04 5 x 100 metres strides 4.49 7.23 00:36:57 08:14 05:07 13
              21/04 Warm up 2.36 3.80 00:20:08 08:32 05:18 6
              21/04 Christchurch Half Marathon 13.23 21.29 01:27:35 06:37 04:07 25
              21/04 Cool down with some spurts while supporting Richard’s sub 3 attempt 2.28 3.67 00:20:03 08:48 05:28 5

              Totals: Time: 06:31:50 - 🦅Imperial: 42.16 mi - Metric: 67.83 km

              5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:34:49 6/23

               

              2024 Races:

              Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55

              Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024 1:27:34

              Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024 DNF

              Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024

              darkwave


              Mother of Cats

                I should correct my earlier post to wish Dave and DKTrotter and Marby good luck this weekend.

                 

                Thanks for the comments on my post.  A few responses:

                 

                "Does being classified count for any US race now?"  Yes - I have a National Classification - mine is NR (National Review) which means that this classification expires in 2026, and so I'll have to be classified again if I want to compete in para stuff after then. When you have a progressive condition, my understanding is that they often don't give a permanent classification - they're allowing for things to change.

                 

                To compete internationally in para stuff, I probably need an International Classification.  It's all very confusing and I'm still learning about it - under some circumstances a national classification can temporarily suffice for an international classification.

                 

                "you’ve run as an elite/sub-elite before—was this one the best experience, or is there another you’d pick?"  That's actually a hard question, as each race is working with their own resources and constraints, so it is a bit apples to oranges to pears.  That being said, this was a very very good experience, and I'd put it up there with any of them.  The yoga mats that were available in the tent at the start (in case you wanted to stretch) was a very nice touch.

                 

                I think my single favorite elite perk ever was at Grandma's marathon.  There, when I finished the marathon, someone ran over to me and handed me my gear bag - about 5 seconds after I crossed the line.  A training buddy had finished about 2 minutes ahead of me, and saw me cross the mat and immediately receive my bag.  He was even more impressed than I was, I think.

                 

                "With the water station issues, I couldn’t help but think they could have the para athletes wear some kind of special bib on their backs too."  I suggested that for next year.  I do think that's a simple and cheap adjustment that could make a difference.

                 

                " Do you plan to avoid hilly races in general?"  I'm still doing hilly races under the belief/knowledge that I need to keep challenging myself.  However, when I'm really going for a time, I'm looking to flat or mostly flat races.

                 

                 "On your Vaporfly 3 issues—is it different than the 2? I’m still using the 2"  I think the 3 is slightly different than the 2, though the biggest difference is that the 3 has better traction.  I do think that different people have different gaits and preferences - I don't find the shoe comfortable at slower paces, but others might (and likely) differ.

                 

                 "The wreath does not belong in a Chipotle bag—it belongs on your head. You win one of those things, you wear it everywhere." I don't like to wear my race medal past the finishing area.  It was actually a bit awkward when I grabbed the trophy - I didn't realize there would be a photo and didn't have my medal with me, so they lent me an extra for the photo Smile

                 

                [and then I almost walked away with the loaner medal and that was awkward also.]

                Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                 

                And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                DavePNW


                   

                   

                   "The wreath does not belong in a Chipotle bag—it belongs on your head. You win one of those things, you wear it everywhere." I don't like to wear my race medal past the finishing area.  It was actually a bit awkward when I grabbed the trophy - I didn't realize there would be a photo and didn't have my medal with me, so they lent me an extra for the photo Smile

                   

                   

                  I've never worn a medal other than from the finish line to the car or hotel. At Boston I didn't realize it was a thing lots of people do - wear their medals around town that evening and the next day. If I knew, I might have done so as well, because why not. Maybe I will for NYC, if it's also a thing they do there too. Regardless - I've never won a freaking WREATH, that's a whole different ballgame!

                  Dave

                  wcrunner2


                  Are we there, yet?

                     

                    "With the water station issues, I couldn’t help but think they could have the para athletes wear some kind of special bib on their backs too."  I suggested that for next year.  I do think that's a simple and cheap adjustment that could make a difference.

                     

                     

                    I'm a little surprised they don't.  At the USATF National Championships I've been to, they issue two bibs for front and back displaying your age group, so you can easily see your competition during the race.

                     2024 Races:

                          03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

                          05/11 - D3 50K, 9:11:09
                          06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.

                     

                     

                         

                    Marky_Mark_17


                       

                      Good luck to Dave and Dorothea for this weekend. Sorry that weather forecast looks rubbish Dorothea.

                       

                      Also Marby. Damn, I keep missing someone lately!

                      3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                      10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                      * Net downhill course

                      Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!

                      Up next: Still working on that...

                      "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                      shouldbedeleted


                        Darkwave - Is it maybe time for you to throw the super shoes in the trash can ? I cannot see how they could be useful to you right now given your balance/stability issues. Surely they're not giving you the so called 4% advantage. Those things are fluffy high heels, it's like you're running on top of bosu balls.

                        I have a feeling you would be considerably faster on regular/non carbon plated shoes that have a low stack sole and are wide. A wider sole makes you more stable as well. And yes, even for the marathon. Something like the Altra Escalante racers, or whatever similar shoes that have a heel drop if that's your preference. Lower stack also meant closer to the ground with more sensor data, even though some of the "packages are getting lost along the way to your brain".

                         

                        Go Dave/Dorothea/Marby, may you have fun out there!

                        Half Crazy K 2.0


                          Some race sponsors give free stuff or discounts to participants. Often it's show your bib, but I guess medal would work too. Atlantic City has a whole list of restaurant discounts you can get for showing your bib during race weekend.

                          darkwave


                          Mother of Cats

                            Darkwave - Is it maybe time for you to throw the super shoes in the trash can ? I cannot see how they could be useful to you right now given your balance/stability issues. Surely they're not giving you the so called 4% advantage. Those things are fluffy high heels, it's like you're running on top of bosu balls.

                            I have a feeling you would be considerably faster on regular/non carbon plated shoes that have a low stack sole and are wide. A wider sole makes you more stable as well. And yes, even for the marathon. Something like the Altra Escalante racers, or whatever similar shoes that have a heel drop if that's your preference. Lower stack also meant closer to the ground with more sensor data, even though some of the "packages are getting lost along the way to your brain".

                             

                            Go Dave/Dorothea/Marby, may you have fun out there!

                             

                            The shoes have been an ongoing discussion.  One problem is that it is very hard to find lower stack racers these days; another is that I really need to have the shoe fit my foot perfectly or I get foot clenching that makes it harder for me to run.

                             

                            One of my PTs is a) a running teammate who has known me for about a decade, b) a 2:19 marathoner (in his youth) and c) a PT specializing in Parkinsons and gait issues.  So I pretty much trust his advice on the best shoes that I should wear when racing.  For the marathon, he thinks that the supershoes are still worth it, even if I get minimal benefit out of them - they're still better for me than anything else on the market.

                             

                            (for shorter races, I seem to run my best in the (non-pro) Adios)

                            The Hoka Rocket X is pretty wide and stable, and that has mostly been the shoe I'm most comfortable with at marathon effort.  The only reason I didn't wear it for Boston is that it has awful traction on wet pavement (like at water stops). 

                            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                             

                            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                            wcrunner2


                            Are we there, yet?

                               

                              Dorothea - The library had Goucher's and Désir's books on the shelf, so I checked them out. I've finished The Longest Race and agree it was very disturbing, and included some aspects that I hadn't known before. Had to take a break and read something light before I get into Running While Black.

                               

                               

                              Finally finished Running While Black.  A minor point, but I was surprised that she didn't now about Ted Corbitt and the New York Pioneer Club or his role with NYRR.  I met Ted back in 1970 and was familiar with his Boston Marathon history and the 1952 Helsinki Olympics. Looking back at my coaching experience, I now wonder how my top xc runner felt as the only Black running for a small private boys school in Connecticut. His father was a teacher and coach there or he would have been at a public high school.

                               2024 Races:

                                    03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

                                    05/11 - D3 50K, 9:11:09
                                    06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.

                               

                               

                                   

                              Marby


                              Ash

                                Go Dave! Go Dorothea!

                                The quality of the race reports around here are next level.

                                Thanks for the well wishes.

                                 

                                Shortly after arriving at the accommodation, I discover my room is directly above a hotel which is a live music venue when I hear them doing a sound check. Should have researched this a bit better... but what's done is done. I look up the venue online to see what I'm dealing with. I've copy/pasted the results of that for your enjoyment.

                                 

                                Ballarat, you asked for it! Well now you’re gonna get it!: B'rat Fest! A Ballarat based heavy metal festival! Get ready to unleash your inner Rat at the Eastern for this brand new annual metal festival. Brace yourself for a relentless onslaught of raw energy on April 27th, with blistering riffs and ear-shattering vocals from an epic lineup of local metal.

                                Leading the charge are the mighty Fall and Resist, ready to unleash their unique brand of melodic death metal. Joining them are the relentless force of Distorta, the cosmic fury of Cosmonaut, and the unyielding aggression of Order Of Torment. But that's not all – Bush Wizard, Yeah, Sick! And Dhert are all building to an amazing line up.

                                Next: Ballarat, April 28, Pacing 3:50

                                Best: 5k 19:46 (Parkrun, 2016), 10k 40:37 (Track, 2022), Half 1:26:41 (2016), Full 3:00:23 (2021)