2024 Advanced Training and Racing Thread (still competitive jerks) (Read 177 times)


Speed Surplus

    Also missed the favorite race distance question.

     

    I think my two favorites are the 1500/mile and half marathon.

     

    Recent effort notwithstanding (went 90/96/97/90), I think I'm pretty good at pacing the mile and while it's definitely painful if done right, there's something about it that flows for me.

     

    I enjoy 5ks but they take way more out of me.

     

    Every time I run a full marathon I consider quitting the sport permanently 🀣

     

    Half marathon is just the right distance where I feel like I can nail the pacing, and it never gets to the "I think I might die" stage of suffering until very late. Check out the splits from my PR - I'm still proud of them, 9 years later!

     

    5:27 / 18:49 / 40:32 / 88:12 / 3:12

      ^ those are some nice looking splits!

       

      Speaking of marathons - my plan is set! (More or less.) I don't start for another month (12 weeks out), but figured I'd take a look at it. For the last few, I've just been recycling the McMillan custom plan I bought a couple years ago, and I just change the dates on the spreadsheet. The plan builds in a tuneup half, which I try to include every cycle, but it doesn't necessarily fall at the same week in the schedule. So I usually need to shuffle things around a bit. I decided to take a look at the plan since I do have an intended tuneup race, and wanted to see where it fit. Turns out it's in the same spot as the original plan, so no shuffling! Now all I have to do is stay healthy.

      Dave

      mmerkle


        (Training Question) Flavio Since you are the biggest strength training advocate, what is your take on lifting and running in the same day? (I'm aware this has been discussed before but I think I this context is new)

         

        I've heard ideally, whatever order you pick, the gap between the two should be at least 4 hours. If I remember correctly, darkwave said something to this effect last year. But does this depend at all on the type of strength training? I am periodizing my strength training this cycle (shoutout to Half Crazy K). So right now I'm just doing mostly unilateral work with either light weight or body weight. My guess is one can get away with doing that immediately after running, but when I move on to the heavier lifting phase I should make sure there is sufficient time in between. Thoughts? (Anyone else is free to answer too.)

        AndyTN


        Overweight per CDC BMI

          Michael, I less than a year of experience in that area but I have found it beneficial to do a quality run and then strength work after that on the same day. The main reason is that it gives you more easy days following to help recover. I have many times done a tempo run and then immediately come home and lifted weights. I have also done a run in the morning and then lifted weights that evening after work. I have certainly tried to do a quality run the day after lifting weights and it is very difficult, especially if I'm a little too aggressive lifting the weights causing me to be pretty sore the next day.

          Memphis / 38 male

          5k - 20:39 / 10k - 43:48 / Half - 1:34:47 / Full - 3:38:10

          wcrunner2


          Are we there, yet?

            (Training Question) Flavio Since you are the biggest strength training advocate, what is your take on lifting and running in the same day? (I'm aware this has been discussed before but I think I this context is new)

             

            I've heard ideally, whatever order you pick, the gap between the two should be at least 4 hours. If I remember correctly, darkwave said something to this effect last year. But does this depend at all on the type of strength training? I am periodizing my strength training this cycle (shoutout to Half Crazy K). So right now I'm just doing mostly unilateral work with either light weight or body weight. My guess is one can get away with doing that immediately after running, but when I move on to the heavier lifting phase I should make sure there is sufficient time in between. Thoughts? (Anyone else is free to answer too.)

             

            Never really thought about this. When I was young (early to mid-20s) and ignorant, I lifted immediately after finishing my run because the equipment was there and I didn't have to have a separate workout.  I usually lifted a couple times a week with moderately heavy weights, e.g. bench press my body weight, leg press 1.5 x body weight.  I doubt I could do half of that now.

             2024 Races:

                  03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

                  05/11 - D3 50K
                  05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour

                  06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.

             

             

                 

            Mr MattM


              Others can answer better than me... as I've never included any 'focused' strength training during my running escapades.  However, as a general rule, if running and strength training on the same day I'd run first at nothing more than moderate effort, and then do the strength training.  I'd be more rigid on this when running and doing leg lifts/lower body as opposed to upper body.  I don't think that running and upper body lifting interfere too much with one another (others may not agree).

               

              Also, I don't think that the strength training needs to follow the kind of exercises you'd do for body building.  If the goal is to improve running, the strength training should combine more multi-joint exercises that strain you ability to manager weight through a range of 'planes'.  Your main goal is to strengthen any weaker areas across all dimensions (up, down, left, right, forward, back).  I don't think that something like bicep curls are particularly beneficial to running (but certainly looks better at the beach!)... my advice is to make sure you are clear on what your goals are, and to tailor the strength training to include focused exercises that will improve running.

               

              Now, should you actually also want some body builder type muscle definition and you plan to do serious lifting then you'd need to a it more conservative on the doubling up of running/lifting.  I'd recommend at least half a day (like 8hrs+) between heavy lifting and running.

               

              Just my mostly uneducated $0.02...

              be curious; not judgmental

              Half Crazy K 2.0


                I tend to do lower body or full body on the same day of a workout. I run in the morning before work and do strength training after work. The whole hard days hard, easy days easy thing.

                mt79


                  Mmerkle - Lift 2 days a week.  For legs, the only real value is lifting heavy.  You should do it on same day as hardest runs after the runs.  This keeps your easy/recovery days just that.  

                  Don’t lift heavy until you build up to it.  Start with body weight and go through the motions for a couple weeks.  Then add weight gradually over several weeks until you get to your 5-8 rep zone.  Warm up with light reps.  Most people seem to do 3 sets.  I often would do something like 7, 6, 4 reps when lifting a weight that I thought I could do 8 times.  I would stop at 6-7 on first set, because you are going to fail on set 2 & 3 anyway.  Occasionally test yourself to failure on set 1.  Once you can do 10+ reps, add a little more.  

                  No reason to rush weights increases, you will stop making steady progress pretty quickly and settle in at a good power to weight ratio.  You are also likely going to be very sore for a while, if it’s pretty bad, skip lifting.  

                  Don’t neglect sprinting.  Short (25-50 meter) all out hill sprints and 95%+ 100-200 sprints are great for running economy.  Sprinting directly into the wind on gusty days is great too.  Too many recreational runners focus on mileage (because it’s easy) instead of quality (because it’s unpleasant).

                   

                  You mentioned doing a mile this year and a 5k.  When I was racing the mile (a quarter century ago 🫣), I did a lot of 300-600m repeat workouts.  For the 5k, I never trained for that distance, but when I ran hard workouts with the 5k guys, it was usually 800-1600m repeats.  They would do 400s when they were working on speed.  I would do the hill sprints and things like 100s and 200s when I was working on speed. 

                  If you are serious about 1M and 5K, I would start with sprinting and plyometrics/dynamic exercises until that feels ok.  Then start with the body weight lifting.  Your focus needs to be on those 2-3 hard days per week and everything else is just filler.  Long runs, 10-12 is plenty, I would back everything else off until you adjust to intensity.  It’s a shock to the body.  

                  Good luck!

                  darkwave


                  Mother of Cats

                     

                    I've heard ideally, whatever order you pick, the gap between the two should be at least 4 hours. If I remember correctly, darkwave said something to this effect last year. But does this depend at all on the type of strength training?

                     

                    So...it's possible I said 4 hours, but if so I was linking to something, or describing a situation where someone wanted to balance both.

                     

                    As someone who prioritizes running, I always do an upper/lower body split, with the lower body part immediately after my hard running workouts - I do this so that I maximize the recovery time before the next hard run.

                    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                     

                    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                    Running Problem


                    Problem Child

                      (Training Question) Flavio Since you are the biggest strength training advocate, what is your take on lifting and running in the same day? (I'm aware this has been discussed before but I think I this context is new)

                       

                      I've heard ideally, whatever order you pick, the gap between the two should be at least 4 hours. If I remember correctly, darkwave said something to this effect last year. But does this depend at all on the type of strength training? I am periodizing my strength training this cycle (shoutout to Half Crazy K). So right now I'm just doing mostly unilateral work with either light weight or body weight. My guess is one can get away with doing that immediately after running, but when I move on to the heavier lifting phase I should make sure there is sufficient time in between. Thoughts? (Anyone else is free to answer too.)

                       

                      I do my workouts (TRX) when I can. Currently it is about 8 hours after a running workout. I was told, also by darkwave, the important thing was to have them on the same day to give the body a recovery day. In 2018 when I was asking the question the discussion was a "do it immediately after the run workout" vs "get it done on the same day." At the time I was able to change my work schedule to get  the run done before 5, and the strength workout within 4 hours. Life is different now so I get it done on the same day. Having a recovery day, or a day where it is just easy running seemed to work so I stick with it.

                       

                      What are you thinking about for heavy lifting? Squats/deadlifts/shoulder shrugs/dumbell flys/invline rows type stuff? jump/run/play crossfit type stuff?

                      Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                      VDOT 53.37 

                      5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

                      mmerkle


                        Thanks for the responses. I do tend to include strength work on the same days as a workout so that easy days can be easy. Although right now almost everything is easy because I'm in the beginning of the cycle.

                         

                        Mr MattM I'm definitely lifting to get faster, not bigger. So agreed, I should include compound movements.

                         

                        mt79 I didn't mention this, but I'm not going to focus on shorter distances until summer. Right now is half/full marathon training. I will keep this in mind though. But I do have a question. I was under the impression that plyos are something you do closer to goal races at the end of a cycle. Does this flip flop when training for shorter distances, or am I wrong about that overall? You certainly don't have to twist my arm to get me to do speedwork though. I do that regardless of what I'm training for. It's fun.

                         

                        RP Weighted lunges, squats, leg press, calf raises etc for the heavy lifting part. Then as I mentioned above I thought the idea was to start introducing plyos as goal races approach, but maybe not. I'm trying to do strength work more often but also periodize it so it has some structure.

                        Marky_Mark_17


                          Big week.  Lots of mileage, so the legs were a bit heavy for the couple of workouts I did do.  Big trail run on Sunday, mostly gravel road but a couple more technical sections, and amusingly I took a wrong turn when trying a new route but was able to use the map and compass on my Garmin to sort things out without doubling back (albeit I ran about 4-5km further!).  Good time on feet practice for the Goat in a couple weeks and it was nice to get out in the forest.

                           

                          If I include the two parkruns I jog-walked with my 6-year old daughter it was actually my biggest week ever (otherwise, 2nd biggest).

                           

                          Weekly for period: From: 01/01/2024 To 07/01/2024

                          <caption>Weekly Grid</caption>
                          Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                          in m
                          01/01 That run where it was out before dawn on New Years Day 6.22 10.01 00:46:57 07:33 04:41 72
                          02/01 That run with the bliss of a southerly shift 10.14 16.32 01:13:10 07:13 04:29 165
                          03/01 That run with the first new shoes of the New Year 8.76 14.10 00:56:49 06:29 04:02 66
                          04/01 That run with some more 🐐 and Coatesville hill training 12.54 20.18 01:28:35 07:04 04:23 261
                          05/01 That run where today there were no hills 7.74 12.46 00:48:05 06:13 03:52 8
                          06/01 That run with a pretty glorious rainbow 🌈 9.16 14.75 01:06:46 07:17 04:32 173
                          07/01 That run where the map on my watch actually came in useful 19.04 30.64 02:26:10 07:41 04:46 714

                          Totals: Time: 08:46:32 - πŸ¦…Imperial: 73.62 mi - Metric: 118.46 km

                          3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                          10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                          * Net downhill course

                          Last race: Waterfront HM, 7 Apr, 1:15:48

                          Up next: Runway5, 4 May

                          "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                          dktrotter


                          Dorothea

                            Re: strength work right after/same day as hard workout: This is new to me, but if I were to try it, would work out pretty well with my schedule next semester. So you're saying that you'll do an 8-12 mile workout (track, tempo, whatever) and then do strength work? Like in the gym? I'd like to try that, but it's not been my experience at all with team athletics; we would do strength training after an easy run, the day before a workout, but not the workout or "off or recovery day." I'd be worried trying to do strength work on tired muscles would increase the chance for injury?

                             

                            Congrats on the kinda-sorta biggest week, Mark! I've gotten lost in woods before and been really grateful for that map function.

                            Qualifications: I like to run. In Florida. In the summer. At noon.  

                            Last race: Community 5K, March 2nd. Speed test run with 2 walk breaks. Went pretty well.  

                              Mark - nice work! 

                              Dave

                              flavio80


                              Intl. correspondent

                                I don't think that something like bicep curls are particularly beneficial to running (but certainly looks better at the beach!)...

                                I strongly disagree, how else will you get better at squeezing those gels during the marathon πŸ˜‚

                                 

                                Mike - I will mostly sell you what I've been sold heh.
                                The general consensus, including in that book I read by Richard Blagrove is to lift on the same day as your hard workouts, to keep hard days hard and easy days easy.
                                And then, if running is your priority, you would run first, then lift afterwards.
                                I myself have recently tweaked my schedule so that I run my workouts on Tuesday and Thursday mornings, and then lift on the afternoon those same days.
                                Previously I'd lift on Tuesday evening then have a hard workout on Wednesday morning and that was impacting my workouts.
                                One more from that book: You'd add Plyos and explosive work (box jumps, broad jumps, single leg hops) later in the cycle, for a few weeks.
                                Then reduce training volume the last 3 or 4 weeks before a target race.
                                Thank you for the great question, it's very nice to see such an important topic being discussed around here.

                                 

                                Mark - Woah, gigantic week! Look at you averaging 4:46 per K, that must have been some interesting terrain 😁

                                I've just recently learned how to use the Garmin map when I get lost after I missed a turn in Paris and ran roughly 4km in the wrong direction.

                                It's quite useful!

                                 

                                DK - Re: lifting after running the workouts, once again per the book (and what's been my experience), it does not really increase chances of injury, provided you are lifting safely (with good form) and you are not lifting with your ego.

                                That said, I would not lift right after the workout if possible. What I do is run the workout in the AM and then lift in the PM, about 8 hours after my run. I know though that there are people on here who have infinite levels of energy (Darkwave, Keen, Calbears), I suppose they wouldn't have any issues lifting right after.

                                 

                                me - Thursday's squats left me a bit sore so slower runs yesterday and today.

                                Overall a nice week with a nice sub 3 pace workout. It went extremely well exactly at the kind of effort/heart rate I would expect. Now where was this fitness when I ran the Valencia Marathon ? πŸ€”

                                I will intentionally not call it Marathon Pace (MP) because calculated MP is way faster than sub 3 (MP is 4:03/km - 6:30/mi, sub 3 is 4:15/km - 6:50/mi), and actual MP based on my last race is way slower πŸ˜‚

                                 

                                M: 80'E

                                T: 80'E

                                W: 40'E

                                T: 82' total with 34:40 at sub 3 pace.

                                F: 65'E

                                S: 80'E

                                S: 2h10 long run

                                Totals : 9h17, 106.5🧠 or 66πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡Έ

                                PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021

                                Up next: some 800m race (or time trials) / Also place in the top 20% in a trail race

                                Tool to generate Strava weekly