2024 Advanced Training and Racing Thread (still competitive jerks) (Read 270 times)

dktrotter


Dorothea

    Cheers everyone. I am still pretty happy about the race result, even if I did spend a good amount of time last week looking for redemption possibilities after fully accepting that it was a mistake in pacing from miles 16-20 that messed me up. I appreciate the thoughts about fueling. I did say I wondered about it, but I never really thought it was what caused me to miss my target. I was on track to go between 3:27 and 3:29 until mile 20, which had been my modified goal after seeing the weather for the day. Going to remember to stick to the plan next time. 

     

    I took it easy last week, and by 7 days post-race, my legs felt about what they always do on a Sunday after a long run. My heart-rate stats have been unusually high/low for me, which made me extra vigilant about rest and not pushing it too much—It helped that I also didn’t have a lot of time, and I wonder if losing the semester stress helps the heart stats settle down somewhat, too. I celebrated submitting grades this morning with a mid-long, hot run (Kiwi Point 160 by the end of it). Having only online courses this Summer Term means that I have a lot more flexibility, but I need to create a good structure for myself.  

     

    Dave, congrats on your marathon! It’s great you didn’t let the 3:20s get you in the end, and 2nd fastest (non-downhill) marathon is still a great performance. I’m glad the hip or back pain didn’t interfere with your running, but I imagine they messed with your head before and were not very pleasant after. 

     

    I hardly think I qualify as an early-career marathoner anymore. I ran my first marathon in 2011 and have run 14 of them (even if they were not all PR attempts). I will also say that I trained for and ran my first marathon without any special fueling knowledge, ran my second fueled by Christmas cookies, and it wasn’t until my third that I discovered gels. I also believe proper nutrition while training and before the race are important. And for this last training cycle, I went back to doing all morning runs fasted except for a cup of coffee or two. 

     

    I’m tempted to say that I’m not talented in the marathon, but I also believe it’s just a matter of time. I learn something from each race, and I think I’m getting better at them, not just from the perspective of times. While I’m proud to have two sub-3:30s in a row now (if you recall, when I came on the forum, that was my white whale), my other race times indicate I should be able to run at least 3:25, so I’ll just keep signing up for races that are bound to have better weather and trying to complete good training cycles until I get that. But running is not all business and no play. I really enjoy running 5Ks with my club and I seem to have some talent at ultra races (especially the flat, hot ones), so I want to keep signing up for those as well. 

     

    My plans for the fall are a reflection of those considerations since I really want to get the Boston monkey off my back (yeah I BQd, but unless there's no cut-off time, I'm not running in 2025). I have a few destination marathons in mind (a bit of a challenge, since my travel budget is already being used for a conference in the fall), but there’s also a 12-hour track race that’s right around the corner from me at the end of November… time and place are good! But it’s not a marathon, so I’m still thinking. Maybe Marine Corps? We'll see.  

     

    darkwave, your race plan change to run the BAA 10K, and knowing that you have the certification to compete in para-categories nationally, and could get it internationally, indicates how you’ve opened a door of very cool possibilities that your diagnosis threatened to close. I’m really excited to see where you go next. (Your one PT sounds like a terrific person to have on your team!) Also, glad to see you’ve been feeling better! I feel like some sort of respiratory illness is obligatory after an endurance race (hoping to skip mine though, haha). Good news about the medication, too. 

     

    Also, yeah, you’d think Boston organizers would have thought to have front and back bibs for folks… It seems like a good idea. 

     

    Mark, that’s a terrific 5K. Great report! The stream-of-consciousness in a 5K is much easier to reproduce than for a marathon! (unless you’re RP) I prefer morning races because there’s not a lot of time to mess up the day, but the party vibe seems worth it. Congrats on being the national AG champ! And dang, that’s fast. 

     

    BTW, I’m also happy to read that the cat survived the trip across the motorway!

     

    Flavio, that’s a very interesting article. I made it about halfway before being pulled away for other things, but the main takeaway at that point, for me, was that the majority of his training is MP-pace-specific, which makes a lot of sense to me. I liked that aspect of Hanson’s plans and missed them when I used a coach. McMillan’s brought them back in for me, and I feel the long runs with a lot of miles at MP or faster were what helped me keep power for the majority of my last race. 

     

    And I agree that recovery is integral to training and it includes time off, sleep, and proper nutrition (and supplements, if relevant. For example, I have to take iron otherwise I get anemic and can’t run). It’s mental too, I feel. We can’t be “on” all the time. Sometimes it’s nice after a race to just have a week or two (at least) of no plans, just getting back to where hard running is doable again. 

     

    I also like how you think of your training. I noticed for the marathon that you waited to see your 10K get to a specific time to know you were ready to smash 3 hours. For the 800s, you’re looking for a particular 200m time. I guess I’m just amazed that you can translate your distances like that, because it’s not how it works for me (or maybe I’m just not doing it right). 

     

    Krash, terrific report. You didn’t seem very happy with the result, but it seems that you still had a better day than most everyone else out there! Congrats! Also, I have no idea what recovery from a 48-hour race is like, but could it be that that’s still affecting you? 

     

    Also re: “most backyard ultras have some kind of vert” Yup. The 12-loop one I did a couple years ago was in ancient sand dunes. We only had about 150ft a lap, but it added up to something respectable by Florida standards by the end. I think I’d cry on a few of those hills if I had to deal with 400+ a loop, though. 

     

    mmerkle and Dave, when I did mine, I spent the time between loops filling my clothes and hat up with ice, going to the bathroom, and using a massager to keep the muscles loose. It was a trick a non-newbie friend of mine shared with me, and it did help! That, plus fueling and some occasional wardrobe changes, helps pass the time and stops things from seizing up. 

     

    wcrunner, where’s your 50K this weekend? I have learned now that Ohio can be hit or miss (if I paid better attention to the historical records, I would have seen it’s alternated with similar weather every year….) Hope it’s relatively cool for you!

     

    Also, that video of the kid getting hit by a deer mid race… woah. I hope he ended up okay! They have quite a bit of force in them! I’ll admit, I pointed the deer out to the runners behind me, partly because it was cool, partly because I wanted them to be prepared if it decided to bound across the path at the exact moment they were running past. 

     

    Steve, your training has been looking consistent and strong. Great news on that long run workout sans cramps! I’m sure you feel this way too, but June needs to be here already, because I can’t wait to see how you do. 

     

    Cool base training and race plans, mmerkle. I like the idea of a rust-busting 5k. Our semesters are aligned, it seems. I also start teaching 2 6-week classes next week. Good luck! That format for your first class flying solo seems a bit like throwing you in the deep-end, but it will be fine. 

     

    Keen, loved the report of your daughter’s race. The fact that she’s still at the age where playing is even an option next to running, and still ran a solid 2 miles, indicates that she’s clearly got your ultra genes :-) It’s always funny how a visual cue will make our brains quit earlier than our legs maybe would. 

     

    Andy, congrats to your son! He’ll be great motivation soon to also keep getting faster :-) 

     

    RP, just sign up for the 50-miler already. And good luck in your interview!!  

    Qualifications: I like to run. In Florida. In the summer. At noon.  

    Last race: June 29, Hasenheide Parkrun, 22:19. A bit disappointing but it was still a fun event. 

    wcrunner2


    Are we there, yet?

       

       wcrunner, where’s your 50K this weekend? I have learned now that Ohio can be hit or miss (if I paid better attention to the historical records, I would have seen it’s alternated with similar weather every year….) Hope it’s relatively cool for you!

       

       

      Hopefully I'll have time to respond to other posts later today, but I'm getting anxious and focused on this.  I'm woefully undertrained for this and expect to walk much, maybe most, of it.  Historically the race either has heavy rain or scorching heat, so I don't trust the weather forecast that says the temperature will be near ideal with a high around 63F.  It's local for me, Sharon Hill, PA, a Philadelphia suburb. One bright spot is the possibility of winning a $25 gift certificate to my LRS if i can break the single age PA resident record of 8:41:10 for age 77.

       2024 Races:

            03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

            05/11 - D3 50K, 9:11:09
            06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour, 35.82 miles
            10/12 - Hainesport 12-Hour

       

       

           

      shouldbedeleted


        ....

        Mikkey


        Mmmm Bop

           

           

          Mikkey - I believe (though can't be sure) that Darkwave was referring to general diet, not what you eat during a training run.

           

           

          Ah, well in that case it’s not surprising that I feel that gels make little difference in a race or training runs because I’ve always eaten pretty well since I took up running….and it’s so much cheaper and satisfying to cook from fresh.

           

          Good cooking is like running as it’s actually very simple to master if you have a passion for it. 👍

          5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

          Running Problem


          Problem Child

            Flavio I have a sweet tooth. As I’m getting older I can’t seem to put down as much but I try.

            dorothea I did.

            Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

            VDOT 53.37 

            5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

            mmerkle


               

              I fully agree with that. Garbage in, garbage out, if you eat crap and drink tons of alcohol your training will suffer, period.

              We're all free to decide on that though. I've seen plenty of people who will say they'd rather keep eating junk and filling with drinks cause they don't care for the 0.5% improvement in performance.

              It's usually the under 30's, they think they will stay like that forever (I for sure did that when I was that age), over time they will learn their lesson 😈, unless they got freaky genetics 😁

               

               

               

              As an under 30 myself, it's more difficult to be disciplined when your body doesn't actively punish you as much. My stomach/gut doesn't act up easily. I don't gain weight easily. And it takes a decent amount of alcohol for me to feel anything resembling a hangover. I've actually had some really solid runs on Saturdays and Sundays after having 4 or 5 strong beers the night before. I don't advocate poor diet or consuming a lot of alcohol, but I think being more disciplined with age comes in part from actually FEELING the consequences lol.

              SteveChCh


              Hot Weather Complainer

                mmerkle - Sounds like you're just lucky, I definitely had consequences for those things in my 20s.  So as someone blessed you're obligated to drink those beers

                5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:29:54 6/24

                 

                2024 Races:

                Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55

                Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024 1:27:34

                Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024 DNF

                Wellington Marathon June 23, 2024 3:29:54

                Hagley Park Run July 20, 2024

                Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024

                Timaru Ten October 26, 2024

                Marky_Mark_17


                   

                  As an under 30 myself, it's more difficult to be disciplined when your body doesn't actively punish you as much. My stomach/gut doesn't act up easily. I don't gain weight easily. And it takes a decent amount of alcohol for me to feel anything resembling a hangover. I've actually had some really solid runs on Saturdays and Sundays after having 4 or 5 strong beers the night before. I don't advocate poor diet or consuming a lot of alcohol, but I think being more disciplined with age comes in part from actually FEELING the consequences lol.

                   

                  Ah, I miss those days.  I remember when I gave up alcohol in 2021 it was because I had 2 glasses of wine and woke up feeling pretty average the next day.  To be fair I was still drinking a fair bit into my late 30's but as long as I got a decent sleep I normally trained fine.  Probably, I was deluding myself that it was actually a decent sleep though.

                  3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                  10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                  * Net downhill course

                  Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!

                  Up next: Still working on that...

                  "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                  Running Problem


                  Problem Child

                     

                    As an under 30 myself, it's more difficult to be disciplined when your body doesn't actively punish you as much. My stomach/gut doesn't act up easily. I don't gain weight easily. And it takes a decent amount of alcohol for me to feel anything resembling a hangover. I've actually had some really solid runs on Saturdays and Sundays after having 4 or 5 strong beers the night before. I don't advocate poor diet or consuming a lot of alcohol, but I think being more disciplined with age comes in part from actually FEELING the consequences lol.

                     

                    Try one beer per mile before a long run. It makes life interesting. 
                    a 6 pack of Voodoo Ranger Imperial IPA can do WONDERS for the body of a man under 37.

                    Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                    VDOT 53.37 

                    5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22

                    Mikkey


                    Mmmm Bop

                       

                      As an under 30 myself, it's more difficult to be disciplined when your body doesn't actively punish you as much. My stomach/gut doesn't act up easily. I don't gain weight easily. And it takes a decent amount of alcohol for me to feel anything resembling a hangover. I've actually had some really solid runs on Saturdays and Sundays after having 4 or 5 strong beers the night before. I don't advocate poor diet or consuming a lot of alcohol, but I think being more disciplined with age comes in part from actually FEELING the consequences lol.


                      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68885746

                      This guy drank 25 different glasses of wine during the London marathon last month (1 glass every mile).  Maybe that is an alternative and more entertaining way to fuel during a marathon instead of the usual 5 gels and frequent cups of water?  When I ran the Paris marathon there was a wine and cheese station at around mile 20 which I’m sure was very popular. 

                      5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                      shouldbedeleted


                        ....

                          100% learning to cook is a vital skill. Once you learn how to make your favorite dishes you unlock your life LOL in my case it was when I learned how to make home made pasta (watching a video from Jamie Oliver heh), and also how to roast pork ribs.

                           

                           

                           

                          Learning how to grow your own veggies is sub 3h marathoning. The rest is just hobby jogging.

                           

                          I love Renato Canova - someone asks him for the Cairess training plan for London and he just goes and pasts it into LR. Great. And then calls out one of the EPO for everyone guys:

                           

                          Steve, why don't try to see the opposite of your boring idea : that when you train with the right progression DURING YEARS, the training plan is no more absurd and the recovery becomes normal. You are obsessed by the only idea you have in your mind : EPO for everything and for everybody, also for going in the toilet. Is not that you need a psycanalist ?

                           

                           

                          What does he mean Flavio, since you are also Italian you might be able to translate that for us 

                          HM: 1:47 (9/20) I FM: 3:53:11 (9/23)

                           

                          2024 Goals: run a FM & HM + stay healthy!

                          shouldbedeleted


                            ....

                            Mikkey


                            Mmmm Bop

                              100% learning to cook is a vital skill. Once you learn how to make your favorite dishes you unlock your life LOL in my case it was when I learned how to make home made pasta (watching a video from Jamie Oliver heh), and also how to roast pork ribs.

                               

                               

                              I’ve followed Jamie Oliver since he first had a cook show when I think he was in his teens and have always loved his enthusiasm and passion and his videos are fantastic. He’s a bit woke now, but I try to ignore that. 

                              Totally agree that around 40yo is when you have to consider winding it down as the alternative is going to lead to bad health. My biggest vice was smoking (25 years) and recreational drugs which I loved at the time….but continuing that lifestyle after 40  = not good.

                               

                              Flavio - My wife wants me and her to have a holiday in September and I was thinking Italy, so do have you any recommendations?  (preferably near a beach). Any other country/ destinations let me know. 👍

                              5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                              dktrotter


                              Dorothea

                                 

                                Hopefully I'll have time to respond to other posts later today, but I'm getting anxious and focused on this.  I'm woefully undertrained for this and expect to walk much, maybe most, of it.  Historically the race either has heavy rain or scorching heat, so I don't trust the weather forecast that says the temperature will be near ideal with a high around 63F.  It's local for me, Sharon Hill, PA, a Philadelphia suburb. One bright spot is the possibility of winning a $25 gift certificate to my LRS if i can break the single age PA resident record of 8:41:10 for age 77.

                                 

                                GO for it, wcrunner. The weather looked a bit wet for today but perfect for tomorrow.

                                 

                                My mom (76) and I chatted a bit about endurance sports and how they get harder as you get older. Energy being a major factor, but also strength and bone density. Not everyone can cycle into old age due to balance issues, running is hard on the knees, swimming is overall good, but does nothing for the bones. I wondered out loud if I'd still be able to run when I was her age. She said she bet I would. Then I was like, but how long? And then I remembered you.

                                 

                                It doesn't matter if you have to walk a lot, but get that record!

                                 

                                We can control our food, sleep, and exercise (to a point... there are sometimes factors that add limiters to that control), but yeah, we can't control our genes. Even if we know our biological parents and their parents (and so on), we don't know all the aspects of our DNA, so we do the best we can, I guess.

                                Qualifications: I like to run. In Florida. In the summer. At noon.  

                                Last race: June 29, Hasenheide Parkrun, 22:19. A bit disappointing but it was still a fun event.