Forums >Racing>2024 Advanced Training and Racing Thread (still competitive jerks)
Josh Wasn't trying to argue. I just think wcrunner deserves a certain amount of respect in my humble opinion.
Of course wcrunner deserves respect, especially considering he is still so active at his age. But the thing is, was the question about running a good fast marathon or about finishing a marathon? If about just finishing, then wcrunner's advice is worth to listen to.
No but have you heard about his age graded %?
People who follow this marathon thread for awhile, know Mikkey's AG is well above 80%. Btw, Mark, your "love" for Mikkey is also well known, please do not try to say it's one sided love
Mark - Whose age-graded performances? I somehow don't get your question. WCRunner mentioned his and I don't care about M's.
You better care before chiming in on running related question- because your credibility relates to that - . Otherwise it just sounds like your message is more about personal feelings than about running.
paces PRs - 5K - 5:48 / 10K - 6:05 / HM - 6:14 / FM - 6:26 per mile
It’s hilarious that long covid guy and need2try on my case every time I post. Have they ever given any advice? Nope.
It’s hilarious that long covid guy and need2try on my case every time I post.
Have they ever given any advice? Nope.
Generally it's only when you start abusing people.
You may find this surprising, but when you come on a thread, act like you know everything, and abuse those who have a different opinion, people do actually have the guts to call that out.
You've got enough marathon experience to have some useful advice to add. The problem is, the way you carry on, most people actually don't want to listen to you. Your advice only has value if people actually respect you enough to listen to it.
You're not wrong, but one of us can debate different views without resorting to swear words and insults.
3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)
10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)
* Net downhill course
Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!
Up next: Still working on that...
"CONSISTENCY IS KING"
Are we there, yet?
I think you'll find it helpful in running a good, if not fast, marathon as well. I may not be as talented as some of you, but I generally get the most out of my limited abilities.
2024 Races:
03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles
05/11 - D3 50K, 9:11:09 06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.
Steve - just gotta keep the momentum going now and not do anything crazy, like get sick or injured. Oh, and make sure you wear those new shoes at least once BEFORE race day!
Started coming down with a cold on Wednesday, but overall it wasn't too bad. Took Wed off, had an average run Thurs and felt better Fri/Sat but kept it pretty comfortable. Actually the highlight of the week was the first trail series race of the season with Miss 7 today which isn't in the log below. The short course was 7km with a couple of really big hills, but boy it was fun. I'd say we ran probably half of it which was pretty good all things considered. She didn't complain once and was laughing and doing her best the whole way. I could tell when she was tiring a bit because she'd start asking when the next aid station was (they have water, candy and pretzels!). Honestly, I thought it was really cool that she'd try and find a positive thing to keep her going when it was getting tough.
I do not argue - even finishing marathon is a great feat, most of people cannot do that at all, most of people think it is just crazy, and kind of unnecessary. Time of 2:59 sounds great doesn't matter what age, but 71% AG is not so - mostly because I still can see word competitive in the thread 's title.
I kind of agree - stfu was an overkill... I think Mikkey probably frustrated with people who are trying to give an advice without really having any authority for it. I mean - some of people here are barely moving their legs, but still have an opinion on competitive marathon training (no offense)
Not an 80%er
Calbears - Nobody currently posting on this thread can be considered really competitive in the sense of "can compete with the best".
If we're talking *locally competitive* then maybe we can include Mark, DW and Dorothea.
We're all hobby joggers, including me, you and Mikkey. Do you understand that even the last placer at the US marathon trials would lap us in a mile race? Do you understand just how insignificant our performances are? We're all but snails compared to Lord Bekele, who's going for that Olympic marathon gold in Paris this August.
I'll even go as far as to say that my advice to MickJogger is better even though I'm a "failed marathoner", because I'm closer to him performance wise than Mikkey or you. Because I'm slower I have to deal with stuff that talented people like you and Mikkey don't even know exist. It's similar to how me being 6'1 I don't understand why people struggle to grab products at the top shelf.
Mick - It might help to think in terms of time, not distance, when asking for this kind of advice.When Jmac says he ran 22 miles for a long run, you have to consider that he took around 2h50 or less to run that.When he says 18 miles with 14 @ MP he means roughly 16 minutes warm up (2 miles easy) + roughly 1h22 at marathon pace (22.4km@3:40/km) + 16 minutes cool down, total workout time under 2 hours.Mikkey's MP is around 4:10/km, so 5km at MP takes him about 21 minutes.One of the reasons I recommend the Hanson's plans is that they're very simple and they have no such nonsense as running 35km.One thing we have to keep in mind is that training for somebody like Jmac or Mark who are trying to extract that last 0.1% of speed is very different from training for you and me who still can make "newbie gains".To answer your question, you definitely can make do with long runs of sub 2 hours but your long runs will have to include speed, and your weekly mileage will have to be high, certainly over 80km but ideally close to 100km per week.
MMerkle - Looking at your recent workouts and the race splits it does seem like you slept a little on kms 3 and 4. But I don't think you were in sub 17 shape, it's hard to gauge as you didn't seem to run a v02max workout recently, only tempos and what seems to be anaerobic stuff.
Surely as you re-introduce the v02max workouts, something like 6x1000@5k pace or 7x800 by the next race you will definitely go faster.
me - FYI I have disabled the sync to my Strava account for privacy reasons. I might re-enable it in the future, or not.
My week didn't go too well. Tuesday's anaerobic workout was a bit lethargic and then in the evening strength training session I couldn't do my usual vertical jumps due to having zero power.
I took the rest of the week easy.
PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021
Up next: some 800m race (or time trials)
Tool to generate Strava weekly
Calbears - Nobody currently posting on this thread can be considered really competitive in the sense of "can compete with the best". If we're talking *locally competitive* then maybe we can include Mark, DW and Dorothea. We're all hobby joggers, including me, you and Mikkey. Do you understand that even the last placer at the US marathon trials would lap us in a mile race? Do you understand just how insignificant our performances are? We're all but snails compared to Lord Bekele, who's going for that Olympic marathon gold in Paris this August. I'll even go as far as to say that my advice to MickJogger is better even though I'm a "failed marathoner", because I'm closer to him performance wise than Mikkey or you. Because I'm slower I have to deal with stuff that talented people like you and Mikkey don't even know exist. It's similar to how me being 6'1 I don't understand why people struggle to grab products at the top shelf.
Seriously??? So, I am not competitive because I cannot compete with Bekele? Are you turning "fool" mode? Locally I was always competitive - and I am only talking about AG competition - I am not an idiot to complete with best runners in their 30s or 40s. Though I still beat most of them. And again - amateurs, not professionals. And I do not consider it as an excuse. So, please... Though, you are partially right - I lost competitive edge a lot - just tired of it, too much effort and I tried to keep it up for 10 years. I am sad sometimes I wish I started that hobby at early 30s to see what I could achieve - but there is no "if-s" in this life.
I do not argue - even finishing marathon is a great feat, most of people cannot do that at all, most of people think it is just crazy, and kind of unnecessary. Time of 2:59 sounds great doesn't matter what age, but 71% AG is not so - mostly because I still can see word competitive in the thread 's title. I kind of agree - stfu was an overkill... I think Mikkey probably frustrated with people who are trying to give an advice without really having any authority for it. I mean - some of people here are barely moving their legs, but still have an opinion on competitive marathon training (no offense)
It sounds like you're working with the misconception that in order to give good advice requires that you be a top competitor in terms of time and place. I think knowledge and experience are far more important. It may also be worth reexamining what it means to be a competitor. It's not restricted to those vying for a position on the podium. It includes even middle and back of the pack runners, those less talented, who are still striving to run the best they can. While I rarely compete anymore, I'm not averse to laying it all out there under the right conditions. One doesn't finish 28th of 115 in a 12 hour race at age 73 by without being at least mildly competitive.
Dorothea
Generally it's only when you start abusing people. You may find this surprising, but when you come on a thread, act like you know everything, and abuse those who have a different opinion, people do actually have the guts to call that out. You've got enough marathon experience to have some useful advice to add. The problem is, the way you carry on, most people actually don't want to listen to you. Your advice only has value if people actually respect you enough to listen to it. You're not wrong, but one of us can debate different views without resorting to swear words and insults.
I would like to second this. In my field, I see a lot of ego-inflated people who are good at their work but have little interpersonal skills. They do not win the awards in the end, because no one wants to work with them. Running is different. It's a solo sport. But when it comes to coaching or giving advice, you'll find you can get somewhere with negative coaching strategies, but few people sign on to be abused. I didn't like how you told wcrunner to stfu, or belittle his experience or accomplishments. That doesn't negate the fact that your point about long-run workouts (with intervals) are perhaps more effective than straight long runs at a set pace.
To second Dave and what seems like your own advice, Mikkey (thinking about "then experiment and figure out what works best for you rather than following a specific canned plan from a running book."), is that there is probably no one true answer about how any of us will get to our next level of achievement. It’s all about trial and error and adaptation.
Flavio, you flatter me. My local competitiveness may just be from being most Florida-weather resistant and the races I sign up for. The moment I run a race with my friends, I still get third or fourth. But also, is the Strava weekly app not working? I have to do it manually now?!
But also, it sounds like you've hit a valley in the hills and valleys of training. I bet this week will be better.
Third week post marathon, I wanted to start testing speed again and did a few 7-milers and a workout with short intervals. The intervals felt hard, but I think they loosened up the remaining stiffness from the marathon because speed yesterday did not feel like a problem anymore.
Monday, May 13, Hot Lunch Run w/ Some Beach, 7.14 mi, 1:07, 9:26/mi
Tuesday, May 14, Short Intervals (6 x 90s and 4 x 30s, including w-up, ABCs, recoveries, and c-d), 7.14 mi, 1:06, 9:18/mi
Wednesday, May 15, Morning Run (finally switched back to early-morning running), 7.25 mi, 1:04, 8:54/mi
Friday, May 17, Shakeout and Strides, 3.20 mi, 29:43, 9:16
Saturday, May 18, 5K Race and the related efforts
Warm-up and ABCs (2.24 mi, 21:02, 9:23/mi)
Walk In My Shoes Children Mental Health Awareness 5K (21:15.4, 6:51/mi). race report here: https://www.runningahead.com/logs/ee79c847959346c1980f3d1c085def95/workouts/993cbc3e4dda4c588b96dd9dd7aa2c50
Impossible cool-down (1.8 mi, 18:01, 9:58/mi)
The race was borderline stupid. I can’t remember the last time I tried to run hard through soup, but it was still a pleasant surprise to run 21:15. That used to be my PR for quite a few years. If we use the Kiwi point adjustment of 6%, I guess it would be sub-20, but barely, especially if you factor in the super shoes.
Weekly total: 31.9 mi, 4:48:35 total running time, 9:04 pace (a good 10-15 seconds faster again than the last two weeks). I'm ready for summer base-building. My AC broke (a calamity in Florida during the summer), and it needs to be replaced, so that took care of considering signing up for any non-local races for the remainder of the year. Now it's a toss-up between a 12-hour track race Nov 30 or the dreadful Palm Beaches Marathon on Dec 15.
RP, the incline in your race was insane. I look forward to the narration of those uphills!
Mark, looks like a great week, despite being sick. Looks like you didn't have to lose any mileage to the cold. Also, I think the aid stations are obligated to come up with fun foods, because that's motivating for the kids in all of us. Congrats to the little miss! Also good luck in figuring out your own training. It will be interesting to see if you reach for old workouts or try to find new ones.
Steve, I don't think you have any reason to be anything but positive as you look towards your race. I just wish it were a little sooner so there's less time for anything to go wrong. The mental strength coaching sounds like perfect timing.
mmerkle, I've never run a 5K track race, but I imagine it can be both helpful and not to be scrunched together in the track and doing all those curves and having the potential of being lapped. Was this the build-up for the 2-miler?
Great race report, wcrunner. Interesting results. Were there any women in the race, and how did they do? If you had to talk yourself through 30K, that evidences your mental grit. Also, I've learned to always have a hat and sunglasses on hand. One cannot underestimate the mental effort of trying to keep one's eyes shaded. Perceived effort shifts immediately when you can run with a relaxed face.
Happy new AG, darkwave! Looks like a tough, but successful track workout 2 Tuesdays ago.
Qualifications: I like to run. In Florida. In the summer. At noon.
Last race: May 27, Memorial Day 5K, 20:40.6. PR in not ideal conditions! A great way to start the summer.
I don't mean to offend, I'm merely stating facts. Have you ever won a significant race (Ex: CIM marathon)? Could you even qualify to the olympics trial at any point in your life? Were you ever a national champion in a big country? Have you ever even run sub a sub 15 5k?
Put it another way, is there anybody in the world other than your close relatives who would pay money to watch you run ?
None of us is competitive in the sense of "can compete with the best" (Well, maybe except for Cinamon Girl, but she rarely posts here).
Our performances are insignificant even compared to Jmac's 2h36 marathon.
The best we can say is we're competitive in the sense that we are fierce competitors, we dislike losing, we are a bit too obsessed with improving our running.
You can say you did well in the marathon, better than most. That's about as far as you can get.
Flavio, you flatter me. My local competitiveness may just be from being most Florida-weather resistant and the races I sign up for. The moment I run a race with my friends, I still get third or fourth. But also, is the Strava weekly app not working? I have to do it manually now?! But also, it sounds like you've hit a valley in the hills and valleys of training. I bet this week will be better.
I had to move the Strava tool because Heroku (previous host) started charging money.
You can find it now at https://strava-weekly.fly.dev/
The women placed 2-6 with the winner running 5:19:59.
I really need to make a checklist so I don't forget items like my hat. At least at my next real race (12 hours), heat and sun won't be a factor even though it's on June 17th. It's indoors on a 454m track around an ice rink, so the temperature will be a constant 55F. I do have another 12-hour race this coming Saturday, but that will be more social as I'm running as part of a team and will essentially be a supported group long run. Team members are allowed to run together, not required to run sequentially as a relay.
12-hours is currently one of my favorite events, so of course I would recommend the 12-hour on Nov. 30th. Note this is the first year for that race, but given who it timing the race, it should be well run.
Part of TLC
Congrats, RP! What a great performance (referring to your race and your strava title!)
Don't hurry - next AG will start 2026
Mmmm Bop
I don't mean to offend, I'm merely stating facts. Have you ever won a significant race (Ex: CIM marathon)? Could you even qualify to the olympics trial at any point in your life? Were you ever a national champion in a big country? Have you ever even run sub a sub 15 5k? Put it another way, is there anybody in the world other than your close relatives who would pay money to watch you run ? None of us is competitive in the sense of "can compete with the best" (Well, maybe except for Cinamon Girl, but she rarely posts here). Our performances are insignificant even compared to Jmac's 2h36 marathon. The best we can say is we're competitive in the sense that we are fierce competitors, we dislike losing, we are a bit too obsessed with improving our running. You can say you did well in the marathon, better than most. That's about as far as you can get.
Winning a Moose Mug is the crème de la crème of competitive jerk achievements and I think that should be your next goal. I have got every confidence in you.
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
If Marky comes out of marathon retirement and runs even a MM time then I will give him even more love.