Forums >Racing>3:20 Marathoners ... New and Improved for (the rest of) 2017
A 3:20 Slowpoke
DWave - Another solid race. Thanks for the RR!
Arvind - solid race.......sorry you couldn’t finish off those last few miles! Fingers crossed your BQ is good enough.
PJ - sometimes the tumbles can’t be avoided. I went like 6 months without a fall and then fell twice in the same run. Heal up!
New nick - welcome!
Max - I like reading about pain and suffering. Thanks!
PR's 5k - 20:39 (2014). 10k - 42:04 (2014) 13.1 - 1:30:30 (2014) 26.2 - 3:14:21 2017)
Upcoming Races - Boston Marathon 4/18
My splits from the race yesterday.
02:57.7
I had sports drink at every 2 miles until 20 and every mile after 20. I had salt at mile 4 and mile 10. i had gu every 6 miles. I still hit the wall at mile 24. What can i do in my future training to avoid hitting the all.
Train your body to burn more fat. From what you described as your nutrition during the race you are a carb burner. Learn about a low carb high fat diet. Ketogenic. Congrats on a very solid race.
Mother of Cats
My splits from the race yesterday. 1 07:41.7 2 07:07.4 3 07:08.6 4 07:26.6 5 07:29.9 6 07:32.9 7 07:12.8 8 07:26.1 9 07:28.6 10 07:33.6 11 07:46.6 12 07:33.0 13 07:43.5 14 07:32.0 15 07:30.7 16 07:40.3 17 07:46.1 18 07:38.3 19 07:27.7 20 07:42.3 21 07:37.9 22 07:54.9 23 07:42.3 24 08:00.1 25 08:45.7 26 08:47.1 27 02:57.7 I had sports drink at every 2 miles until 20 and every mile after 20. I had salt at mile 4 and mile 10. i had gu every 6 miles. I still hit the wall at mile 24. What can i do in my future training to avoid hitting the all.
My answers above, via bold and underline. Get just a little too ambitious early in the race, and you dig into the resources you need late in the race. Save seconds early to lose minutes later.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
Good learning. Thank you dwave
How can i improve my speed and endurance
Pace Prophet
Arvind - I completely agree with Darkwave here. In your pace advice thread, it was suggested that you pace for a 3:20 finish until late in the race. That is a 7:38 pace. You averaged 7:25 for the first 10 miles, and more importantly, ran five of those miles more than 10 seconds faster than your goal pace, three of those more than 20 seconds faster. That is a recipe for wall-hitting. You may have been in shape to run 3:20, but you were definitely not in shape to run 3:15 (7:26 pace).
You can improve your speed and endurance through running consistent and relatively high miles, most of them easy, with targeted speedwork. But the most important thing for a good marathon is to match your goal to your fitness, and execute that goal properly. You really didn't do that badly this race - your late race looks more like a fade than a wall, not nearly as bad as your previous marathon, and you got yourself a very big PR and should be pleased about that.
Ace - baby yet?
Darkwave - congrats on your 8k PR and podium finish! Headwind out/tailwind back sounds ideal.
I actually commented on Max's blog, but I wanted to mention to everyone else here that when I went in for my bone density scan I chatted with the tech, who told me she had been camping along the Moab 240 course with her husband, and felt terrible about disappointing the many runners who thought their campsite lights meant the aid station, only to realize they still had several miles to go.
Hi everyone else. I went back to the doctor because I was concerned about healing, but guess what? The x-ray shows that it's definitely healing, and so the doctor told me she thought I could increase my weight-bearing activity but continue to be cautious about carrying and lifting things. She thought the pain was mostly in the muscles around the site and recommended PT. I started doing exercises I'd found on the net - I had been dubious because the problem was bone, not muscles, but apparently the tendons and muscles have been working harder to support the area and so need gentle stretching?
But I've done a half hour walk (and as usual it started hurting after five minutes, but the pain stayed at a low level rather than increasing as it had before), and I've started mountain biking again (on routes where I don't have to carry my bike), and I have started using the elliptical at the gym as well as pool running. I am hopeful that I can start running again soon.
The big issue that the testing did turn up is that I've got significant bone loss since the last time I had a Dexa scan six years ago, and my bone density is firmly in the "osteopenia" range. The vertebra where I had a herniated disc a few years ago is the worst, edging onto osteoporosis. So I might be looking at meds. Apparently being a skinny post-menopausal white woman with genetic predisposition to weak bones is catching up to me.
pie man
That's mostly good news, ilana.
Decent bq arvind. I am wondering if I need 3:10 to be safe. They lower the times and people get faster, kinda cool.
dave - it's been a while for me, I think the last one was a trail fall last year. But I did check on the way back and here was some sort of rock just slightly sticking up, enough to catch me when not looking.
Any word about max? That race is hard to even find online.
i did 16 today, pushed it a bit. Not sure if it was the near-perfect weather or the nine inch nails on the radio but I was after it from the start. Normally I would have found a race, but my situation doesn't allow me to spend extra money right now (and I'm spending too much on food thanks to the training). So I put extra effort in this one and now I'm going cut back this week, I think. I also have a streak which I only just realized, should, make it to 28 and then maybe a rest day (if not before).
Week
M - 8.5 @ 7:40 (too fast but that's a group run for you)
T - 7.5 - 4 @ 7:00 (200 on/off Winter of Malmö style)
W - 5 easy
T - 8 easy
F - 10 (6 post fall)
S - 7 easy
S - 16 @ 7:56 (good weather, a few climbs, legs were complaining by the end)
62...
11:11 3,000 (recent)
Arvind - you improve speed and endurance by training intelligently. How do you do that? Actively participating on this thread is a good start.
Ilana - glad for the guardedly good news.
I'll be interested to see what path you take with the osteopenia/osteoporosis. You've likely either forgotten or didn't remember in the first place, but I've been in a similar situation. About 4-5 years ago, my spine had crossed over that magic 2.5 line into osteoporosis, but has since come back. And my bone density has been generally improving since then, with the one exception of a pesky lumbar vertebrae that hovers around 2.3-2.4. (everything else is just vanilla osteopenia, which doesn't worry me too much, since I've had that diagnosis for nearly 20 years now)
What change did I make in response to the osteoporosis DX? Getting really strict about cutting gluten out of my diet (so my GI tract wasn't inflamed and I absorbed nutrients better) and supplementing heavily with vitamin D. I've never seen any good results from calcium supplementation, and so I don't take much calcium now (or consume much in my diet). Vitamin D seems much more important for me. I'm not sure which of the two was responsible for my improving bone density, so I've adhered to both.
I have to admit, I'm a bit skeptical of bone density as a measure of bone health. I've known plenty of people who struggle with stress fractures who have far better bone density than I do. While the one broken bone I've had as an adult (in my foot) is in a location where my bones are apparently very strong and good.
Bones can be dense, and yet brittle. And I also know that those bone density meds work by reducing bone turnover and remodeling. That's great if you're a sedentary woman in her 80s shedding bone mass like crazy. But for active people who are continually stressing their bones and encouraging turnover (a good thing for us), the meds seem like a misguided idea.
As far as I know, there are no studies of bone density meds and active women. And definitely no studies of bone density meds and pre-menopausal women (me), Which is why I'm personally very resistant to going on the meds myself. But that's me, and I know you'll research the hell out of this and are also in a different age bracket from me. I'm very interested to see what path you choose.
My week: 42 miles and 13 miles of pool-running.
M: yoga and 7.5 "miles" of pool-running.T: 10 miles, including 1600,1200, 2x800, 400 in 5:59, 4:25, 2:53, 2:53, 83. Also injury prevention work and recovery swimming.W: 9 miles easy (8:50) plus drills and strides. Later a bit of upper body weights and core.Th: 5.5 "miles" pool-running and DIY yoga.F: 3 miles easy (8:45) and DIY yoga.Sa: 8 miles, including an 8K race in 31:48.Su: 10 miles easy (8:50)..
the nine inch nails on the radio
Way back when I was running indoor, I'd listen to March of the Pigs before I'd race the 800, something about that song set it up perfectly.
Yeah - that song matches how I'd probably run the 800. Really light and fast and frenzied for about 90 seconds, and then the tempo slows way down and the rhythm shifts into something more ponderous and uneven...
Arvind - I completely agree with Darkwave here. In your pace advice thread, it was suggested that you pace for a 3:20 finish until late in the race. That is a 7:38 pace. You averaged 7:25 for the first 10 miles, and more importantly, ran five of those miles more than 10 seconds faster than your goal pace, three of those more than 20 seconds faster. That is a recipe for wall-hitting. You may have been in shape to run 3:20, but you were definitely not in shape to run 3:15 (7:26 pace). You can improve your speed and endurance through running consistent and relatively high miles, most of them easy, with targeted speedwork. But the most important thing for a good marathon is to match your goal to your fitness, and execute that goal properly. You really didn't do that badly this race - your late race looks more like a fade than a wall, not nearly as bad as your previous marathon, and you got yourself a very big PR and should be pleased about that.
This is very good insight. I will keep this in mind and continue to run slower for most of my runs . I have a few halfs next and thinking of signing up for Chicago in 2018.
Will Run for Donuts!
Arvind,
It was a pleasure to meet you and run Richmond with you yesterday. I feel badly that you missed your goal, but still, you do have a BQ and a big PR. I still think you're capable of a sub-3:20 like I said yesterday, and I would encourage you to keep trying for that - you're very, very close.
As for what went wrong yesterday, I think Darkwave and Ilanarama are absolutely right - you started out too fast. Just reading your prior posts before we met up in the corral, everything about your training suggested you'd finish ahead of me. You're younger, you ran more miles this year (by ~300!), and you had a faster half (1:30) during this training cycle. My best half this year was a 1:34 in the spring, and my best ever is 1:31, so on paper, I thought you'd have no trouble going under 3:20 and probably beating your A-goal of sub-3:18 as well. The one advantage I had was marathon experience. This was my 6th marathon this year, 15th ever (+3 ultras), and 6th Richmond. I have a bit more experience both with the distance and the course.
Starting out, our first mile was about where it should've been. After that, we were going too fast. I mentioned a few times that we were well ahead of pace, but you said you were feeling good so I didn't try harder to slow us down. I didn't want to hold you back from your A goal since it seemed like you were having a good day. We hit the halfway at 1:38:35, well ahead of pace. As your splits show though, you really started to fade in the second half. Richmond is a rolling course, but since most of the ups and downs are in the first 20 miles and the final 10K is flat/downhill, the ideal strategy is to run a negative split. Last year when I got 3:13 at Richmond, that's how I ran the course. This year, we both had positive splits. I was, however, able to close out the final miles pretty strongly this year (splits of 7:34, 7:23, and 7:11, with 6:20 pace for the final .2 mile downhill stretch). The marathon is all about holding yourself back in the beginning and then starting to build momentum in the closing miles.
As for other factors, I don't think lack of calories was a problem. Everyone's energy needs are different, but I actually only used one gel and about 5 gummy bears I got just past the bridge. I also took some sports drink from about half the water stations, but I was feeling nauseous in the second half and didn't use any of the other gels I was carrying. If you used a gel every 5 miles, you probably had enough calories. I suspect you might've been a bit overdressed, since it looked like you had on multiple layers, but that's just a guess. Yesterday was very cold, and I was absolutely miserable before the race only wearing a single layer (long-sleeved shirt), but once we started running, I was fine - not too hot or too cold.
Overall, with good pacing, you should have no problem running a sub-3:20. I think the fitness is definitely there for you. You might look for a good spring marathon and give it a go. Chicago is also a great race if you wait for the fall, but if it's hot again like it was this year, that's going to be tough. Best wishes to you and good luck!
Hey all!
No baby yet. I know if I'm getting impatient, my wife is even more so. I tried to tempt fait today and drove 30 minutes to a favorite 10-15 mile running spot of mine. I thought maybe Murphy's law would send us into labor with that choice, but it did not...and the trails were closed for hunting season. Still had a good 10 miler. Felt great. Hit the hills a little bit and picked up the last 1-2 miles.
Arv: I have to agree with DW and Ilana. Again, great race!
dwave: nice 8k. That's such an interesting distance to me. There are only 1-2 available in our area per year and that includes about a 100 mile radius.
Has anyone ran the Charleston 1/2 Marathon of Full? THinking about running the half in this next training cycle. It's in January. My sister lives in Charleston, which makes it an easy trip and a time to see family.
My week
M: 7 progression, 1 cd (7:57, 7:39, 7:23, 7:15, 6:55, 6:45, 6:17, 8:24) - First progression with HRM. HR went up almost exactly 5 bpm per mile. Pretty interesting.
T: Rest
W: 6 easy, 8:07
T: 7.2 - 2 up (8:00ish), 10x45 sec pickups with 60 sec rest, 2.75 down (8:00ish) Pickups were 5:30ish pace, rest jogs 8:30ish)
F: 5 easy (8:20) with some hills on the route, 495' climbing
S: 4.6 easy (8:16) - was supposed to be 5, but cut short to go to a neighbors for S'mores. Great call!
S: 10.1 (7:55) - worked the hills, picked up the last 2 miles.
Total 40.1 miles. Legs are feeling great. Makes we want to stay in "base phase" forever.
Road Mile: 5:19 (2017), 5k: 17:09 (2021), 10k: 35:54 (2021), HM: 1:21:55 (2020), M: 2:53:18 (2021)
Dwave - in fact the vitamin D results were on the low side of normal, and after getting that result I started up my vitamin D supplement again. The most off-normal result was for something called bone-specific alkaline phosphatase. Since the issue is partly hormonal status, this might indicate hormone replacement meds rather than calcium, though I'd been hoping to avoid them, really.
Jones - congratulations on your race! Of course endurance vs speed is a very individual thing. And training is a big part of it, not just raw mileage but whether you've run your easy miles truly easy, and what kind of speedwork you've done. And experience speaks to overall mileage in your legs, which I think is important, too.
Got out for a nice mtb ride today!