2020 Marathon Training and relevant COVID 19 discussion echo chamber (Read 700 times)

I really appreciate you, and others, for taking the time to read and comment. It's interesting that you and I arrive to the same conclusion, yet with kind of an opposite path. For one, if I was forced to guess, I would assume I didn't run enough quality, or that I didn't push hard enough in my quality

...

 

With regards to the long runs, and to comment on what JT said, I would be surprised if running too many or running them too fast would be the issue. Could be though. In general, I've always hated long runs. The first few were no different than every long run in a marathon cycle I've ever had. Yet the last four were better than in any other cycle. At first, after a long run I'd go to the park with my kids to play soccer. I could barely kick the ball and my legs would just be stiff. The next day or two I'd really need a short easy run. But by the end, they felt like they took almost nothing out of me. I'd happily play soccer with the kids running all around, and easily run a normal easy run the next day without feeling much. And the long runs were hard, but nothing crazy. I've seen waaaay crazier long runs on these boards over the years. With huge T and M and then T to the 10th type stuff. These were all quite mild in comparison, although faster than easy.

 

But overall, this was my biggest week, 5 weeks out. I struggle to see how I did too much quality. Seems somewhat mild...

So as a prelude...earlier I mentioned my opinion about how 80% of training is universal, and the other 20% is unique to each.  I think we're getting into the 20% here, which is why there are no stunningly obvious answers, just suggestions and food for thought as you figure this out.

I do not think that you did too much quality in terms of volume (to me, quality is running at MP or faster).  I do suspect that the quality that you did do might have been harder than it should have been.  Again, when analytically looking at risk/reward, it is better to err on the side of running quality a bit too slow.  Run the quality too slow, and you'll still reap 95% of the benefit and be fresh on race day.  Run the quality too fast, and you'll reap 80% of the benefit or less and have some deep fatigue that magically appears on race day when things start getting tough.

[I've seen this one play out again and again over the years.  Young guy shows up on our team, and starts training with me, despite the fact that he is clearly much faster than me.  Young guy sees substantial, quick improvement.  Young guy then decides that he wants to start training with the fast guys, even though they're a hair faster than him.  So young guy starts hanging off the back of the pack of faster guys in workouts.  He can hang for workouts, but he plateaus and then starts slowing in races.

At this point, there are a few young guys who figure it out, and back off on the training paces.  And reverse the trend.  But most continue to hang on to the back of the fast pack, and their frustration grows until they lose interest.]

Like JMac, I have an upper limit of three, maybe four long runs of 19+ (and I usually go with two of them in a cycle).   So NINE long runs seems WAY TOO MANY to me.  I get that they felt much easier by the end.  And that makes sense - you got very good and practiced at running a run of 19-21 miles with some tempo miles in them.  But...that wasn't the goal of the cycle.  The goal of the cycle was to run 26.2 miles at marathon pace on a specific day.  I think all of those long runs built up fatigue that hid and then surfaced on race day.

Training is like baking a cake.  Ingredients are added in specific proportions for a reason.  And overshooting the quantity of a specific ingredient will not result in a better cake.

Another way to think about it: training is about applying just enough stress to your body to elicit a desired response, but no more.  Doing more stress, be it faster workouts or more very long runs, won't necessarily get you a stronger response, but will accumulate fatigue.   Diminishing returns is a very real thing in running training, and I keep thinking you hit and then went past that point.

I thought I should introduce myself and post a brief running bio as per the rules of the thread since I am a New Guy on here and, as result of a momentary laps of judgement back in September, I am signed up for a marathon in 2020.

My name is mikeymike although some people just call me Mike for short. I'm an M(50) hobbyjogger from the Boston area. I ran track in high school though I'm not sure how relevant it is since that was a hundred years ago and my useful range was like 400 meters to 1000 yards (yeah the late 80's were a weird time for track distances ... metric outdoor and imperial indoor, man, it was wild.)

I picked up running again as a sport around age 30 because it was something I could do in just an hour a day in the pre-dawn hours to rage against the dying of my outdoorsy athletic self in response to having become a domesticated dad and breadwinner. Or something.

It took me a few years to figure out how people actually trained for distance running but I wound up running some times I feel pretty ok about in my late 30's and early-to-mid 40's (Road: 16:59.44 5k, 1:17:58 hm, 2:49:19 thong / Track: 4:58.92 mile and 9:42.92 3k.) I alway suspected (and my times sort of confirm) that I'm naturally probably more of a mid-distance guy and probably could have made a somewhat useful D3 1500m guy in college, but I digress.

I'm married with 4 daughters, and 2 rescue dogs. For work I sell enterprise software. In August of 2014 I started a new job that almost perfectly coincides with the death spiral of my running "career". After being nearly bullet proof for the previous decade plus, I found myself constantly injured and/or sick, which completely destroyed my ability to really train for anything. I thought it was mostly due to how much more I was traveling for work--and to be sure that was part of it. But I quit that job in December and started a new gig with a great company and I now realize with the benefit of a month of hindsight that although the money was ok, I was living in an abusive/toxic work environment for over 5 years that was negatively affecting my physical and mental health. Each of us only has so much adaptive energy and the more of it you spend on surviving your daily grind, the less of it you have for training and recovering from workouts.

So although my PR days are probably in the rearview (unless I move up to ultrajogging) I'm hopeful that I can start to at least feel like a runner again, race more and enjoy it, and maybe run a complete cross country season in the fall with my dudes.

So how does a marathon fit in, you ask? Great question. At around this time last year, when I was contemplating a big birthday at the end of 2019, I thought it would be "neat" to qualify for and run Boston in 2020 when I would be 50. I thought if I could go sub-3 at Boston at 50 that would be pretty cool since then I could say I did so in my 30's, 40's and 50's and then I could retire from marathons (again) because they are stupid. And the thing is despite my love hate mostly hate relationship with the 26.2, nothing else anchors a training block and keeps me focussed like having one of those big scary impending events on the calendar. So I signed up for and ran the Vermont City marathon last year in a time that easily qualified me for Boston 2020 at my advanced age. And despite coming out of it pretty banged up because I didn't let myself recover afterward and therefore barely running last summer, when Boston registration came around I found myself giving the BAA my money again. Alas.

My training in the fall was not much better than the summer so I'm kinda starting over, which means sub-3 is very likely out of the question. I'm basically looking to use Boston to springboard my training for the rest of the year. I'll hold off on a time goal until I see if/how things come together--current goals are simply to be less fat and to become a runner again.

I'll probably be a very poor thread participant. I don't see myself posting weeklies (my training log is open and I'm on strava and lets face it nobody cares) and I doubt I'll ever do the thing where you bold everyone's name and address everyone who posted above you. I'll probably disappear for stretches and you'll be glad I'm gone only to have me pop up again and the most annoying times and be back on my bullshit. Alas. But hey, HI EVERYBODY. And since DB came out of the woodwork to put his hame on the list I figured I would too.

And if you've mad it this far, sincerely, good luck in 2020, all. May the road rise up to meet you and the wind be always at your back and all that.

Uh oh!  This could get interesting.  I fear these comments may have awakened the sleeping giant ... THE SWAMP.  Grab some popcorn.

Hey mikeymike - But it still releases a little swamp gas from time to time as it decomposes.

 

I don't know what you're talking about. The swamp was declared dead in like 2008.

Ace - Glad I could provide a bit of a laugh. I'm also glad to hear that your calf is doing well, but the toe thing is just tragic and makes me cringe. I'm not kidding when I say my right pinky toe feels a little weird right now.
No comments about how your pinky toes not touching the ground affect your level of running.

Joann - You shouldn't take Brew so literally.

Cal - I certainly wouldn't have guessed that you didn't start with English until 32, especially considering the composition of many other posts here.

 

 

Training is like baking a cake.  Ingredients are added in specific proportions for a reason.  And overshooting the quantity of a specific ingredient will not result in a better cake.

 

Another way to think about it: training is about applying just enough stress to your body to elicit a desired response, but no more.  Doing more stress, be it faster workouts or more very long runs, won't necessarily get you a stronger response, but will accumulate fatigue.   Diminishing returns is a very real thing in running training, and I keep thinking you hit and then went past that point.

 Andres, Really great advice there, helpful and meaningful. Unlike the gibberish from some unfulfilled ultra-runner.

Maybe another thing we can do as a community is to mentor other runners and help them with their training especially if they share a  similarly scheduled training cycle.  JMAC and Darkwave grab a young-un and help them realize their potential. RA has a messages feature where we can communicate and share numbers feedback etc.  I coach a lot through Garmin and since almost everyone uses Garmin except unfulfilled who mainly use Suunto. If you decide to mentor you can connect to your mentee in Garmin Connect it only takes about 5-10 minutes a day to go through and give feedback advice review long runs and key workouts.

But I quit that job in December and started a new gig with a great company and I now realize with the benefit of a month of hindsight that although the money was ok, I was living in an abusive/toxic work environment for over 5 years that was negatively affecting my physical and mental health.

Not to throw this thread off track but I was laid off for 8 months beginning in 2018. Not until I was out of there a couple of months did I realize how much the toxicity of that place took its toll on me. Even with the stress of being unemployed my mind and body were in a much better place. I had learned a hard but valuable lesson. Congrats on the new job, Mike.