2020 Marathon Training and relevant COVID 19 discussion echo chamber (Read 700 times)

I spent this last week trying to assess my fitness and going back to a “big” training week.

 

 

That was a pretty tiring week. Because I couldn’t nail my workouts, I kept trying and… well I’m tired.

 

So starting next week, I’ll be smarter, and slowly build myself back up. After a couple of weeks, if I progress in a satisfying way, I’ll register for a May 17^th marathon. At least, mileage wise, I'm where I want to be at this point.

So this was not indicative of a typical week?

You noted 4 efforts I do something similar as I  don't count my Monday hill sprints as a workout.

More like Hudson says a primer for 2k Tuesday.

I am curious why 1:00 for the 2ks. If you start that low it leaves little room for rudimentary progression loading.

You can keep pace decrease rest later if started at 2:00. You can also increase pace or make recovery active jog but it might be a good idea to begin at 2:00 then progression of 1:30 / 1:00 every two weeks or  hold each for a 6  week micro cycle. You certainly jump started your week if this is not indicative and doing too much (you want tiring but recovering) will make you think it was a good idea to train the way you normally do. I have no issue with the week except the recovery appears too short. As someone who lives by 2Ks Tuesdays my only advice would be build it for progression loading.

Thanks for posting no one will tell your commute miles are too slow to be on a table. DanK often commuted and I think a few others on here do\did it too. I am envious, as wish I could run to work and back. I  feel like I waste 3 hours each day commuting on trains.

JMAC regarding - IAD - Very nice guy, yes moved on to ultras did some long runs in the city on occasion still follow on Strava. He is finding his niche. He also did the Palladone training using Stryd not sure he still does that. . Dan trained well he just ran too fast always, never recovered and would overdo every taper. I hope I am not confusing D(MA)  and S(VA).

TomH may have been the Jersey guy who did way too much extreme everything. I talked about him last week when I confused him for Rovatti.

I did caveat this with the nice guy thing, because he seemed like one, but I'm just trying to be honest here. He ran Richmond, which is a dead flat course, in absolutely PERFECT weather if I recall (mid 40s, no wind) and ran a 2:41. That's when I first started hanging out here which is why I remember it so vividly thinking "what is this guy doing?" At least on his Strava, that's still his PR, and I think he moved on to ultras after that.

Maybe it's harsh, but just like you (Mikkey) say basically every other week to swim, sometimes you gotta point out the fact that the times are not aligning with the training and things need to be changed.

 

DW - thought about you this weekend when I was bombing my 10 miles at MP. I noticed you always do MP intervals, or at least I can't remember the last time I saw you do something like 10-12 straight at MP. Why is that? I've always felt that MP is something you need to learn to just keep fighting through, no matter how bad you feel, which breaking it up into intervals ruins. But I'm clearly missing something.

 

You're not missing as much as you think....

the 2x5 miles is a sorta compromise between myself and my coach, as we have differing views on how to effectively structure marathon effort work.  He likes either 4-3-2-1 at marathon pace with one mile easy in between, or 3x3 miles at marathon pace with one mile easy.  He thinks intervals longer than that at marathon pace are too intense.  (and I don't think he likes the fact that I float my in between miles, rather than jogging them at recovery pace).

I disagree.  I think that if you are going to hold a pace for 26 miles on race day, then even 5 miles at that pace should feel easy (even on tired legs), and 10 miles should be doable and fine.  The 2x5 is a middle ground - he doesn't like me doing that workout, but he accepts it with some grumbling.  And I find that if I keep the middle mile active and upbeat (I don't rest, just downshift slightly), then I think it's just as effective as 10 miles straight at marathon effort in terms of training stimulus.

On Saturday, over the total 11 miles including the 2x5 at MP and the 1 mile float, I averaged 6:42 pace, and felt like I could have gone longer.  So you could also see Saturday's long run as 11 miles straight at 6:42 pace, just with some pace variation within the 11 miles.

(6:42 pace is a 2:55:59 marathon; my PR is 2:57:42).

As for why he wants shorter intervals at MP?   Honestly, I think it's because a lot of people on my team hammer stuff.  It's a recurring issue.  So he builds more and more rest into the workouts so people don't fry themselves, but it becomes a self-perpetuating issue - the more recovery you get, the harder it is to resist the urge to hammer, I find.  I don't like doing the 3x3 because I find it very hard to stay honest about the effort and not get rolling too hard.  And I consider myself, rightly or wrongly, to be better than many at keeping my paces under control in training.  The 2x5, especially if I keep the 1 mile as a float, forces honesty, as does 10-12 straight.  And honesty is essential for running a good marathon.

I think also that for people coming to the marathon from a focus on middle distance stuff like the 800 and 1500, the mental strain of doing a long MP workout can really take something out of them.  And so shorter intervals get them some work at MP, but don't take as much out of them.  Whereas, for people like me with no middle distance history and a talent for hitting a rhythm and holding it, 2x5 at marathon effort or even 10 straight is just as easy or even easier than shorter intervals at MP (since you don't have to change gears as much).  I suspect there's a similar reason behind why 25x400 at 10K pace (a team staple for marathon training that I skip) works really well for those runners but fries me.  Just too many gear changes, not enough rhythm.

Just my humble opinion.  I used to do the 4-3-2-1 and the 3x3, but have consistently gotten much better results with the 2x5 since experimenting with that, so I stick with it.  I would have no issue with playing with 10 or 12 straight at MP, but a) it's not worth the argument and b) I think I get everything I need with the 2x5 at MP with 1 mile float.  If I thought there was some huge extra benefit I'd get from doing 10 straight at MP, then I'd lobby for it.

 

Cyber - love the idea of "lost time," makes total sense. Nothing wrong with that.

 

MTA: huge fan of run commuting. I only do it twice a week because I'm still not on board with running with a backpack, so I just leave my clothes at work and alternate days I run. Maybe I should seriously consider running with a backpack so I can run commute every day.

Cyberic - Well done getting all those miles without letting them get in the way of family time.

I love it. The Woman works in the same building I do and takes the car, so it would be sooo easy to catch a ride with her. I've actually done that for years. I've only started run commuting part time about 2 years ago to boost mileage, and decided to do it full time because I like it so much. It's not even a matter of getting the miles in anymore, it's something I truly enjoy. Whatever the conditions. On most days it's an enjoyable way to get to work with 0 traffic, and when it's raining hard, or really cold, or whatever Mother nature throws at me, I see it as an adventure. I work on a computer all day, so a little adventure in my day is just fun.

Backpack took a little while to get accustomed to, but I think the fact that I see run commuting as a transportation and not as training makes a big difference. I do not care about pace or about stopping at red lights. I'm not training. I'm going to work in an enjoyable way because otherwise that would mean being stuck in a car.

 

Cyberic: You're running high mileage which should set you up well for the harder training. What marathon are you thinking of doing? I was looking at a couple of races in Canada which are later in the spring but still likely to be cool: Marathon des Erables on May 2 and Marathon de le Baie des chaleurs on June 7. I'm leaning more towards Fargo on May 9 due to the total lack of hills. A more convenient one for me travel-wise would be New Jersey but I've heard mixed reviews of that one.

 

I'm thinking of "Marathon de Longueuil". It's a 20 minutes drive from my place, pertty darn flat, ultra well measured, not expensive... It's not a good destination race, as there's no beautifual landmarks, beautiful nature, or nothing like that. Just a convenient race for me. I've never done the Marathon des Erables but it seems a bit early for nature to be in full bloom.

 

So this was not indicative of a typical week?

You noted 4 efforts I do something similar as I  don't count my Monday hill sprints as a workout.

More like Hudson says a primer for 2k Tuesday.

 

I am curious why 1:00 for the 2ks. If you start that low it leaves little room for rudimentary progression loading.

You can keep pace decrease rest later if started at 2:00. You can also increase pace or make recovery active jog but it might be a good idea to begin at 2:00 then progression of 1:30 / 1:00 every two weeks or  hold each for a 6  week micro cycle. You certainly jump started your week if this is not indicative and doing too much (you want tiring but recovering) will make you think it was a good idea to train the way you normally do. I have no issue with the week except the recovery appears too short. As someone who lives by 2Ks Tuesdays my only advice would be build it for progression loading.

 

Thanks for posting no one will tell your commute miles are too slow to be on a table. DanK often commuted and I think a few others on here do\did it too. I am envious, as wish I could run to work and back. I  feel like I waste 3 hours each day commuting on trains.

Typical week: I actually did strides twice in that week, and hill sprints. A more typical week for me would be two week day workouts (Tuesday and Thursday, for example) + a LR. I would add strides in one of the other days. I might do more from reading Hudson, but not 3 full workouts + LR.

1:00 for the 2ks: I have 35 minutes to run during lunch. I have to walk to the indoor track (1/4 mile from work), change, run, shower, walk back to work, and eat in 1.5 hours. My WUs and CDs are ultra short, and I will cut on recoveries, too.to save those 2 little minutes. That is the idea. I would typically do those at T pace (somewhere between 10K and HMP), and do the last 2K at 10K pace or a tad faster if I could (that's what I was doing in November). Last week I was a bit slower than T pace, thus my comment that I was out of shape. So this week I will do the first one at HMP, and build from there. Since I try to optimize my 35 minutes, my improvement comes from either running faster or cutting down on recoveries. Then Spring will come, and I'll start to do my workouts outside and won't have the 35 minutes window to work within.

Run commuting : I was thinking more about getting comments on how it would be better to run 8 straight miles in a day, since it's not much, than 2 x 4 miles. Also the fact that since I run commute, I put miles in, that do induce a bit of fatigue, and I'm not "training" in those, so my balance of "workouts" miles vs overall miles is not conventional. But yeah, I see that it is not the case.

I'm sure IAD was a nice guy, but I have never been less impressed with a runner on these boards. He ran 120 MPW and then couldn't break 2:40 in his 30s? What's the point of running that much? I know he went on to ultras, but I feel like he was a prime candidate for "if what you're doing isn't working, try something new." I realize we're all in this for a hobby, but that just seemed crazy to me.

Well... Have to add few things, because I think I know more history on the subject than you and I kind of was a little bit (just a little bit ) offended by your comment - and because I think his story is one that I consider a huge success. Take IAD in 2011 and you have 3:51 marathoner, not too athletically gifted, just a regular guy who was inspired to run his first marathon by his sister (living in Boston area also helped I guess . In 2013 you already have 3:00 marathoner, then, for the next 3 years, honestly I didn't think anything would happen to him because his times were kind of in 2:50 area plus minus. I thought that's it, that is the best he could get. And I was wrong - he takes things on another level and runs 2:41 at 40 year old (not in 30s). I checked his mileage that year - no 120 miles weeks - I saw two 115 weeks early in the year and mostly the training was around 100-105 mpw and lower. And, btw, he didn't PR in Vaporflys - just regular shoes . So, basically what I am saying JMac - I disagree with you - because I am very impressed with the things I saw happened to IAD as a runner.

Also, if you saw both, IAD and Swim, you would understand what athletically gifted means - when you see Swim, you expect him to run sub 2:40 (Division I swimmer?), with IAD you would never expect that - I hope IAD won't be offended by that comparison