Forums >Racing>Goal of sub 20 5k
The Limping Jogger
RunAsics, I know you're just doing some friendly kidding there, but I know you've had some pretty big jumps in your running career as well, haven't you? And 27 seconds in a 5k at that level isn't so unusual. Just looked back at my race log from 2007, when I broke 20 for the first time. I went from 21:08 to 19:30 in 35 days. 4/10/07 - 21:08 5/1/07 - 20:11 5/8/07 - 19:47 (first sub-20) 5/15/07 - 19:30 MTA: I was doing a LOT of hard workouts during that period...
RunAsics, I know you're just doing some friendly kidding there, but I know you've had some pretty big jumps in your running career as well, haven't you? And 27 seconds in a 5k at that level isn't so unusual.
Just looked back at my race log from 2007, when I broke 20 for the first time. I went from 21:08 to 19:30 in 35 days.
4/10/07 - 21:08
5/1/07 - 20:11
5/8/07 - 19:47 (first sub-20)
5/15/07 - 19:30
MTA: I was doing a LOT of hard workouts during that period...
Yep, just some friendly ribbing as MichiganFlyer is a big numbers guy... not trying to be an a-hole but that's how it probably comes across.
I was trying to think of big jumps in my performances. The ones that stand out are races in tough vs good conditions.
I trained hard last year and in the 5k could only improve by 6 seconds from 18:21 in April to 18:15 in June. A 5k in March was very slow compared to an 8k two weeks later in much better conditions. That 8k matched the 18:21 5k performance, which matched a 30:27 5 mile time in June. In fact I'm inclined to think that the 18:15 time may have been on a slightly short course, even though it was certified and on the local racing circuit.
In the Fall of 2007, I went from 19:12 to 18:52 in a week. Woohoo! However; the 2nd race was on a much cooler day so probably better represented my fitness. I ran 18:51 in Turkey Trot a month later.
In my last two 10ks last year, I ran 39:04 in August vs 37:58 two months later in October. The biggest difference between August and October, other than more time at reasonable mileage, was the weather. Hot and humid vs 50s. My training didn't drastically differ but I may have been more rested for the October race as I was in marathon taper.
I had a fast 15k after the sub 38 10k. I suspect a short course (giving me about 1 minute) as there were some last minute course changes; however, nothing ever came of a plan to re-measure the course. I'm running it again this year so we shall see.
Basically, during a season, I don't think I've had significant leaps over a short period of time for races in the same conditions. Any improvements have been lasting based on improvement from Fall -> Spring and Sprint -> Fall.
That's just me and the way I've trained the past couple of years.
"Only a few more laps to go and then the action will begin, unless this is the action, which it is."
MoBramExam
Certified courses are are problem around here, also. I don't think we have any "certified" courses, and only two that I can think of off hand that may even be "sanctioned". I will plot each of my race courses after the race and include them with the race entry. Two of my slower 5K times this year have come on grossly long courses...a 22:13 on a 2.33 mile course, and a 21:20 on a 3.25 mile course.
My last two 5K courses have been maybe a tad long, but close enough. The next one looks to be pretty much spot on. The biggest difference is the last two have been very hilly, and have contained a significant section on a six-foot running trail with 90 degree turns and one-lane foot bridges. Lots of places to cause a runner to have to slow down. The next one is flat and I'm racing with the confidence that (1) I know what LT feels like, and (2) If I can push it to the edge racing 7 miles, 10 miles, and hilly 5Ks, I can do it better on a flat course.
A 0:36 second PR to get to sub-20 is possible, but it would be a big jump. My primary goal is just the PR; hey, if its 19:59 or 20:01, so what. Right now I'm focused on what I'm going to do on the next 10 days that's going to get me to the starting line healthy and ready to run my best effort. If sub-20 don't happend on 8/1/09, it will happend shortly thereafter and often.
While I'm at here, I think we have Afty going Thursday, and M'Flyer and gcklo going this weekend. Good luck guys. I'll be looking for some detailed racing reports. Always get some benefit from your guy's experiences.
BTW, Buckeye - I can't take credit for that term, I saw RAers pRED and mikey use it. I don't look at it as a derogatory term, rather one of respect...means she's fast enough to smoke a dude. Hey, if I had a daughter, I'd want her "girling" guys all the time.
Prince of Fatness
That's the great thing about finding a summer series. You get to run the same course every few weeks (or every week in some places I hear) so you can measure your progress. I've run 3 out of 4 of a summer series thus far.
5/13 - 21:04
6/03 - 20:46
7/01 - 20:31
I have been lucky in that it has been pretty cool so far this summer. The weather conditions for those races were pretty much the same. I have one more on August 5.
While I know I am definitely more fit now than I was in May, I think that some of the improvement can be attributed to course familiarity and learning to race 5K's (I probably only ran one 5K a year the last several years).
Not at it at all.
Certified courses are are problem around here, also. I don't think we have any "certified" courses, and only two that I can think of off hand that may even be "sanctioned".
A must read post from Pete Magill's blog:
MTA: I also think it is our duty to make clear what we want in races. Let the race director know that it is important to you that the course is an accurate distance. Let them know you'd be more likely to run certified races (if you would), and at least ask them how they know the distance of the course. I know that some of the courses around here have been measured using the same technique as used for certification (basically a carefully calibrated cycle ride), some have been laboriously measured out with a measuring wheel, some have been measured from a map, some seem to just be a rough guess and at least one was measured using the odometer on a motorcycle......
Oh, and certified or not, good luck to those racing this weekend!
Hi John,
I agree. I often email the race director and ask if the race is certified or not. If it is not, at least I would ask how they measured. I think having the course either long or short is definitely disappointing. In 2006, when I was in pretty bad shape, I set a 5k PR unexpectedly. Later on, I realized the course was not certified or the course was modified in real time due to the field being drowned by the heavy rain the day before. So now, I have a very strong reference to run only certified races.
The good thing is, for the 5k, I can always run the Lake Merritt race every month for only $5. Though it is a slow course, it is certified.
A must read post from Pete Magill's blog: Potato, Potahto ... Sanctioned, Certified? MTA: I also think it is our duty to make clear what we want in races. Let the race director know that it is important to you that the course is an accurate distance. Let them know you'd be more likely to run certified races (if you would), and at least ask them how they know the distance of the course. I know that some of the courses around here have been measured using the same technique as used for certification (basically a carefully calibrated cycle ride), some have been laboriously measured out with a measuring wheel, some have been measured from a map, some seem to just be a rough guess and at least one was measured using the odometer on a motorcycle...... Oh, and certified or not, good luck to those racing this weekend!
Just to make you all smile I ran a 5k last night (18.37) with my 9 year old son and he has slowly been getting his times down to about just under 23 minutes so when I finished my race and started talking to other finishers was expecting a nice long gap ....and I hard to rub my eyes to see him nip in close behind me in 20.37. So we now have a new member of the club trying to break 20 minutes.......
Amazing how accurate the Daniels running tables are as he also did a properly timed 1 mile in 6.07 last week and if you run a 5k in 20.37 you should also be able to run a 1 mile race in 6.04 so this appears consistent.
No offense but IMO you are naturally gifted.
I don't care how hard you trained you have to have natural talent to lower your times that quickly.
Its like a quote I heard yesterday from one of the Tour de France team doctors
"The Tour de France is not healthy for these riders"
Doing hard training is not healthy for you. I believe it was Jack Daniels who said most runners only have a handful of hard efforts in any training cycle before they must go back to basebuilding again. And I believe he included hard run races as hard efforts.
So I am thinking you should train your intervals hard but always quit knowing that you have one more interval in you so that you don't go home exhausted but instead you go home feeling pretty good about yourself. Pick maybe three races where you want to destroy the course and train to be in the best shape for those courses. Just throwing in my two cents on this.
Runners run
And the really cool part is that the harder Dakota trains, the more naturally gifted he gets.
quote of the year, awesome!
The guy went through sub 20 like butter. I think he holds the record for shortest time from posting in the sub 20 forum to breaking sub 20. Then he went below sub 40 in the 10k. I am very impressed with his dedication to running.
Nice run MoBramExam. Breaking 21 minutes on a TOUGH course is a nice accomplishment. A few years ago, I ran ~21:27 on a uphill course, and then 20:05 on a fast 5K. I'd be feeling confident if I were you.
Good luck to all racing this weekend. My next race is 8/1. I have done this course a few times, with a best time of 20:15.
Here is an update to the post I have been keeping describing my training over the last few months. I just did the interval next to the 7/19 date. Date is start of week: Intervals - 1K with 90 seconds active recovery followed by 4 X 40 second striders, except where noted: 04/12/2009 4:10; 4:05; 4:12; 4:14; 4:18; no striders 04/19/2009 4:10; 4:11; 4:12; 4:21; 4:28; 2X30 second striders 04/26/2009 4:06; 4:05; 4:04; 4:14; 4:08 05/03/2009 4:07; 3:56; 4:04; 4:10; 4:03 05/10/2009 3:52; 3:47; 3:57; three minutes active recovery, 2 X 40 second striders 05/17/2009 n/a; recover from a 5K raced previous week - no quality 05/24/2009 4:01; 4:00; 3:58; 4:12; 4:03 05/31/2009 4:15; 4:12; 4:09; 4:18; 3:56; 3 X 40 second striders 06/07/2009 3:57; 4:09; 4:10; 4:16; 4:00 06/14/2009 4:03; 4:03; 4:04; 4:06; 3:59 06/21/2009 no quality – recover from previous four straight interval weeks. 06/28/2009 4:10; 4:12; 4:13; 4:19; 4:25 07/05/2009 4:05; 3:58; 4:10; 4:19; 4:11 07/12/2009 no quality – vacation week
07/19/2009 4:00; 4:05; 4:08; 4:15; 3:55 Other quality workout - middle miles of a 10 mile run, except where noted: 04/12/2009 5K race @6:34 pace 04/19/2009 3@7:26 pace 04/26/2009 3@7:39 pace 05/03/2009 4@7:24 pace 05/10/2009 5K race @6:34 pace 05/17/2009 n/a; recover from a 5K raced previous week - no quality 05/24/2009 4@7:24 pace 05/31/2009 4@7:27 pace 06/07/2009 4@7:29 pace all in one run 06/14/2009 3@7:20 pace in middle of six mile run. 06/21/2009 No quality – did a 10 mile run at an easy pace. 06/28/2009 5@7:34 pace 07/05/2009 3@7:36 pace in middle of seven mile run. 07/12/2009 no quality – vacation week; five easy miles everyday. 07/19/2009 4@7:30 pace in middle of six mile run. Total Weekly Miles 04/12/2009 35 04/19/2009 35 04/26/2009 35 05/03/2009 35 05/10/2009 30 05/17/2009 35 05/24/2009 35 05/31/2009 35 06/07/2009 35 06/14/2009 30 06/21/2009 35 06/28/2009 35 07/05/2009 35 07/12/2009 35.
07/19/2009 Plan to do 30.
Books I Have Read
Last Race: Portland Maine Half Marathon October 5 2014
I wanted to give a report on my 5k last night. I did the Friends of Reading Recreation 5k run by our own mikeymike. The race was really well run, and both the course and mile markers were 100% accurate, at least according to my Garmin. You can always tell when a race is put together by runners because they prioritize the things that are important to us.
This was my first attempt at going sub 20. My plan was to go out slightly slower than goal pace in the first mile, around 6:30-6:35, run goal pace for the second mile (6:26), and see what I had left in the third. One wrinkle was that this course was hillier than I am used to, that is, it actually had some small hills. The first mile was slightly uphill, the second slightly downhill, and the third pretty even. Also, the race finished on the grass with a lap of Memorial Park, and I'm not used to running on grass.
I went out pretty hard and tried to stay with a guy wearing a Somerville Road Runners singlet. I went through the first mile in 6:27 and the second mile in 6:27. Talk about even pacing! But by this time I was in trouble. At the end of the second mile, I felt the way I normally do at the end of the third: exhausted, slightly lightheaded, and ready to finish. In the middle of the third mile, I looked down at my Garmin and saw 6:50 for the lap pace. I figured sub 20 was out of reach, and in a moment of weakness, I started walking. I'm pretty disappointed in myself for not having the mental toughness to get through that third mile. I walked for about 40 seconds before running to the finish. I finished in 20:52, good for 34/168 overall and 12/32 in my age group.
I'm not sure what lessons to take from this besides that I wasn't able to hold that pace on that day. I'm pretty close, and a more conservative start probably would have let me run 20:15 or so. Hell, if I could have have just pushed through that last mile, even at a slow pace, I probably would have hit 20:30. I did get a good lesson on what 5k pace should feel like: slightly easier than this.
Great report. I really enjoyed it.
Take some pride in the fact that you had the guts to go for it and on that night just didn't have it to break 20. You are probably closer than you think however. Being aggressive and pushing a pace (whatever that pace is) for 5000 meters should never feel easy.
"Good-looking people have no spine. Their art never lasts. They get the girls, but we're smarter." - Lester Bangs
Not a bad race, Afty. A few things that might help (seems to work for me):
Don't walk, I know you know this but you just can't give up even if your goal is not gonna happen. Slow down - a lot if you have to - but don't walk except in extreme emergencies during that last mile of a 5K. Easy to say, I know!
Another thing - always run YOUR race, if your plan was 6:35 first mile then do it. Don't follow someone else out too fast or too slow. I think you're right on in your analysis that maybe you had a <20:30 finish in you with better pacing (which you would have had had you kept to your plan). Keep training, I think you just need a little more stamina/endurance to do it. I'd concentrate on workouts building stamina before your next 5K. For me this means either longer interval distances/slightly slower interval paces and/or shorter recoveries.
Don't take off two days prior to your race. Run easy miles but run and maybe throw in a couple of strides.
Good luck on your next one.
I figured sub 20 was out of reach, and in a moment of weakness, I started walking. I'm pretty disappointed in myself for not having the mental toughness to get through that third mile. I walked for about 40 seconds before running to the finish. I finished in 20:52, good for 34/168 overall and 12/32 in my age group.
I wouldn't worry about it. Being fit is one thing but I think it takes a few tries to learn how much discomfort you can put up with, so that's something you can take from this. 20:52 with a 40 second walk .... you're close. Just stick with it and you'll get there.
And yeah, RA meetups are pretty cool.