Forums >Racing>Goal of sub 20 5k
When I ran a 27 second PR by running a 19:36 last Summer I was pacing behind a fellow who was helping me go sub 20. I remember thinking around the 1/2 mile mark "This is way too slow to go sub 20" and I had to fight the tremendous urge to surge past my pacer.
I ended up hitting the mile split in 6:18 abiout 10 seconds faster than my normal mile time.
Roger Bannister in 1st sub 4 mile run yelled at his pacer in the opening lap telling him to speed up because Roger was sure the pace was too slow to go sub 4..After the race Bannister's pacer commented that he could not possibly go any faster as he was running all out in the opening lap ....Bannister's 1st lap was 57.5 seconds which was much faster than he was aiming for.
This is pretty much what I do before my race and during my race too. I have been leveraging my Forerunner to run slightly negative splits most of the time, with nothing left at the end. So, I haven't been "leaving money on the table" much and my paces were quite optimal.
I did leave some money on the table for my 1st Marathon at CIM. My 26th mile was my fastest at 7:00 pace while my average pace was 7:25. Since it was my first marathon, I ran it more conservatively and it worked out pretty well.
At the risk of restarting this whole awful discussion, I'll try to answer this one. Before any race, I look at my previous performances for that distance and my recent training and I pick a goal time that seems reasonable. If I haven't run a recent race of that distance, I use the McMillan running calculator to convert between race performances of different distances. I then take that goal time and decide on pace goals for each mile of the race (assuming it's a short race). Typically I shoot for even or negative splits with a slightly slow first mile. Let's say I'm running a 5k and my time goal is 20:59 (6:45/mi avg). I might shoot for a 6:50, 6:45, 6:40 split. I usually don't worry about the elevation profile of the race because most races I run are pretty flat. I use my Garmin to help make sure I'm on track for those goal paces in each mile. I typically watch it more closely in the first mile since I tend to go out too fast, and after that run mostly on feel. But if I look down in mile 3 and find I've slowed too much, I will try to pick it up to make my goal time.
At the risk of restarting this whole awful discussion, I'll try to answer this one. Before any race, I look at my previous performances for that distance and my recent training and I pick a goal time that seems reasonable. If I haven't run a recent race of that distance, I use the McMillan running calculator to convert between race performances of different distances.
I then take that goal time and decide on pace goals for each mile of the race (assuming it's a short race). Typically I shoot for even or negative splits with a slightly slow first mile. Let's say I'm running a 5k and my time goal is 20:59 (6:45/mi avg). I might shoot for a 6:50, 6:45, 6:40 split. I usually don't worry about the elevation profile of the race because most races I run are pretty flat.
I use my Garmin to help make sure I'm on track for those goal paces in each mile. I typically watch it more closely in the first mile since I tend to go out too fast, and after that run mostly on feel. But if I look down in mile 3 and find I've slowed too much, I will try to pick it up to make my goal time.
Running with a Garmin doesn't mean you cannot make real time adjustments. I think learning to use the Garmin pace feedback you have to make real time adjustments based on your at the moment environment opens up an entirely new world for you.
I deviate from my planned paces at many points because of the uphilll/downhill, headwind, turns, but I know for sure if I am running too fast and too slow because of Garmin.
One of the reason why I was the only couple of people who were still with the pace group at CIM at the end was because of my Garmin. I knew the pace leaders were running wildly erratic paces. All the 20 people who ran with the pacers were hosed. I used my Garmin and only used the pace group for reference and adjust my pace real time for the rolling hills. It worked out great.
This makes sense. Lots of people do this. My point was and still is that using McMillan or any other calculator to come up with a target pace is just an estimate, and I will suggest strongly that with practice (and not even a ton of practice) you can become better at this than any estimate by a calculator on a website. Because the fact is your best possible 5k pace changes day-to-day and sometimes even based on time of day. So the estimate you get from McMillan may or may not be your best possible 5k pace that day--it might be too fast or it might be too slow. Hey it might be just right but not usually. It's not the easiest thing in the world and, no, not everybody instinctively knows what 5k effort feels like but it can be learned and as srlopez said a few pages ago, racing by effort is a pretty damn useful tool to have in the bag. And at the end of the day it's really the only way to give yourself a chance for a breakthrough. For me, personally, goal time is separate from goal pace. I have a goal time in my head and it's usually pretty damn accurate but when I line up to race I'm not trying to hit that pace for mile 1, I'm trying to hit 5k effort for mile 1. I know how hard I want to be working, how fast I want my breathing etc. at the mile marker and aim for that. And damned if that doesn't wind up producing a first mile that's pretty close to what the predictors would say most of the time. But here's the thing: sometimes that first mile is faster or slower than the predictor would have said--because of a hill, or wind or something--and it's okay because that's the right pace that night on that course and I wind up running as good a race as I was capable on that day. I don't panic if my watch tells me a number that's faster or slower than what I was thinking, because the effort is right. If you run 10 seconds faster than you should for mile 1 because you're trying to hit a target pace and the McMillan calculuator didn't take into account that mile 1 would be into a headwind (but mile 3 will be with a tialwind) you're all done. You're going to have a sub-par race. 10 seconds faster than your true 5k pace for mile 1 is a suicide pace that will result in a painful fade to the finish 100% of the time. It takes practice to run a good 5k, mostly because it takes practice to put out the kind of effort required--the first couple of times in any given race season you can't believe how hard it is. It's like your brain forces itself to forget, but with practice you learn how hard an effort you can sustain and for how long. And to me, this is half the fun. When you learn to race by effort, the world opens up for you. I don't know why but for some reason I want people to experience that. And it's a skill that will help you at every distance. Having a GPS in your car is a pretty nice thing. But knowing several different routes from your house to your office is even better since you can react to what's actually happening in front of you in real time.
This makes sense. Lots of people do this. My point was and still is that using McMillan or any other calculator to come up with a target pace is just an estimate, and I will suggest strongly that with practice (and not even a ton of practice) you can become better at this than any estimate by a calculator on a website. Because the fact is your best possible 5k pace changes day-to-day and sometimes even based on time of day. So the estimate you get from McMillan may or may not be your best possible 5k pace that day--it might be too fast or it might be too slow. Hey it might be just right but not usually.
It's not the easiest thing in the world and, no, not everybody instinctively knows what 5k effort feels like but it can be learned and as srlopez said a few pages ago, racing by effort is a pretty damn useful tool to have in the bag. And at the end of the day it's really the only way to give yourself a chance for a breakthrough.
For me, personally, goal time is separate from goal pace. I have a goal time in my head and it's usually pretty damn accurate but when I line up to race I'm not trying to hit that pace for mile 1, I'm trying to hit 5k effort for mile 1. I know how hard I want to be working, how fast I want my breathing etc. at the mile marker and aim for that. And damned if that doesn't wind up producing a first mile that's pretty close to what the predictors would say most of the time. But here's the thing: sometimes that first mile is faster or slower than the predictor would have said--because of a hill, or wind or something--and it's okay because that's the right pace that night on that course and I wind up running as good a race as I was capable on that day. I don't panic if my watch tells me a number that's faster or slower than what I was thinking, because the effort is right.
If you run 10 seconds faster than you should for mile 1 because you're trying to hit a target pace and the McMillan calculuator didn't take into account that mile 1 would be into a headwind (but mile 3 will be with a tialwind) you're all done. You're going to have a sub-par race. 10 seconds faster than your true 5k pace for mile 1 is a suicide pace that will result in a painful fade to the finish 100% of the time.
It takes practice to run a good 5k, mostly because it takes practice to put out the kind of effort required--the first couple of times in any given race season you can't believe how hard it is. It's like your brain forces itself to forget, but with practice you learn how hard an effort you can sustain and for how long. And to me, this is half the fun.
When you learn to race by effort, the world opens up for you. I don't know why but for some reason I want people to experience that. And it's a skill that will help you at every distance.
Having a GPS in your car is a pretty nice thing. But knowing several different routes from your house to your office is even better since you can react to what's actually happening in front of you in real time.
MoBramExam
My next 5K race is Wednesday July 1. This is exactly 4 weeks after my last attempt. Same course. How's everyone else doing? Any sub 20 attempts coming up?
My next 5K race is Wednesday July 1. This is exactly 4 weeks after my last attempt. Same course.
How's everyone else doing? Any sub 20 attempts coming up?
As for a 5K, the next is the 4th of July for me...over 2 months since my last. I have a 7-miler on 6/28...double the distance of anything I've "raced" before, and yes, fear is going to be a factor.
No grand schemes to break 20 just yet in the 5K. Just want to go out, run a good race, and go (jog) home with a new medal and new PR. Will be the one year anniversary of my first race.
Been watching. There are several people on this thread putting in a lot dedicated work. Good job, all!
BTW - Thanks for an excellent post, mikey.
As for a 5K, the next is the 4th of July for me...over 2 months since my last. I have a 7-miler on 6/28...double the distance of anything I've "raced" before, and yes, fear is going to be a factor. No grand schemes to break 20 just yet in the 5K. Just want to go out, run a good race, and go (jog) home with a new medal and new PR. Will be the one year anniversary of my first race. Been watching. There are several people on this thread putting in a lot dedicated work. Good job, all! BTW - Thanks for an excellent post, mikey.
You have some fear because you know that you ain't gonna be jogging it. I can tell just by looking at your log that you take your training and racing seriously. Sure it's probably gonna hurt a little at some point but you'll be able to handle it. You are better prepared than most people who've already slogged through a half dozen marathons during their first 2 or 3 years.
You're going about it the right way. You'll do just fine in that 7, I am sure. Keep up the good work.
Thank you; your opinion is a real boost.
Hi MoBram,
You've done the work. So, I have confident in you that you will do well.!
I think the training I have done over the last ten weeks show I am improving/getting stronger (date is start of week):
Intervals - 1K with 90 seconds active recovery followed by 4 X 40 second striders, except where noted: 04/12/2009 4:10; 4:05; 4:12; 4:14; 4:18; no striders 04/19/2009 4:10; 4:11; 4:12; 4:21; 4:28; 2X30 second striders 04/26/2009 4:06; 4:05; 4:04; 4:14; 4:08 05/03/2009 4:07; 3:56; 4:04; 4:10; 4:03 05/10/2009 3:52; 3:47; 3:57; three minutes active recovery, 2 X 40 second striders 05/17/2009 n/a; recover from a 5K raced previous week - no quality 05/24/2009 4:01; 4:00; 3:58; 4:12; 4:03 05/31/2009 4:15; 4:12; 4:09; 4:18; 3:56; 3 X 40 second striders 06/07/2009 3:57; 4:09; 4:10; 4:16; 4:00 06/14/2009 4:03; 4:03; 4:04; 4:06; 3:59 (Today's workout - 6/18) * In July I plan to cut active recovery from 90 to 60 seconds.
Other quality workout - middle miles of a 10 mile run, except where noted: 04/12/2009 5K race @6:34 pace 04/19/2009 3@7:26 pace 04/26/2009 3@7:39 pace 05/03/2009 4@7:24 pace 05/10/2009 5K race @6:34 pace 05/17/2009 n/a; recover from a 5K raced previous week - no quality 05/24/2009 4@7:24 pace 05/31/2009 4@7:27 pace 06/07/2009 4@7:29 pace all in one run 06/14/2009 3@7:20 pace in middle of six mile run. * In July I plan to increase the four "hard" miles to five.
Total Weekly Miles 04/12/2009 35 04/19/2009 35 04/26/2009 35 05/03/2009 35 05/10/2009 30 05/17/2009 35 05/24/2009 35 05/31/2009 35 06/07/2009 35 06/14/2009 Plan to run 30 miles this week * I plan to stay at 35 mile weeks with a 30 mile cut back every fifth week.
Good running all.
Books I Have Read
Last Race: Portland Maine Half Marathon October 5 2014
I've got a fever...
Running with a Garmin doesn't mean you cannot make real time adjustments. I think learning to use the Garmin pace feedback you have to make real time adjustments based on your at the moment environment opens up an entirely new world for you. I deviate from my planned paces at many points because of the uphilll/downhill, headwind, turns, but I know for sure if I am running too fast and too slow because of Garmin.
But even this can be a little tricky. Consider:
But you see my point -- those adjustments aren't as real-time as you might think, and if you have too much input, you're a slave to the device, and you could lose focus on the actual racing.
On your deathbed, you won't wish that you'd spent more time at the office. But you will wish that you'd spent more time running. Because if you had, you wouldn't be on your deathbed.
The Limping Jogger
Some folks like HR others like the comfort of a pace readout.
Last year I used my footpod to monitor my current pace in many races and training - it was a new toy and I became obsessed. I think it helped me in some cases but caused mild to moderate panic in others.
In my first 5k this year my splits were pretty even - no footpod as I hadn't calibrated it for my "racing shoes". My splits were pretty similar at the same race last year with current pace being monitored, a lot. After that I figured I didn't need the added stress of checking my pace other than at the posted mile markers.
"Only a few more laps to go and then the action will begin, unless this is the action, which it is."
Hey all,
Just set an 8k PR on Saturday with 33:49. Course had some hills. Getting into a nice training groove with 20 mile weeks (2 easy runs, 1 long run, 1 speed day - 800's right now). We'll see if I can maintain through the hot and humid summer. Next 5k is 8/22
Steve
2014 - Get 5k back under 20:00. Stay healthy!
gcklo, didn't remember if you've made your training log public before or not, but that's impressive.
Was thinking the same thing myself.
Current Goals: Run and stuff
Thanks for the complements. I am not a gifted runner, so I need a lot of volume to bring up my aerobics capacity. After trying various ways to train, it looks like I can only improve, at least for now, by maintaining a high volume training regiment.
Sjutton, congratulations on a solid 8k time. Using the McMillan Calculator, your projected 5k time would be ~20:31. I bet you would be faster than that and much closer to the 20 min mark. I am also kind of jealous you could run such a good 8k time with only 20 miles / week.!
I don't use instantaneous pace. It is too erratic to be useful. And unless I use Virtual Partner (manual lap doesn't work in VP for me for the 205), I don't use auto lap. I would rather use the actual mile markers.
Lap pace is much better than checking your split every 1/2 mile (even if it is available, most likely not). Let's say your lap pace is now 6:25. If you slow down a bit, it may go up to 6:30, in the next 30 sec or 1 min. You will know now you are slowing down. You don't have to wait for the next mile marker.
At that point, you have to think, are the conditions bad such that you need to take it easier. May be there is head wind, may be it is uphill. If conditions are fine and you are slowing down, you can try speeding up a little and see what happens. If you can, great. If you can't, may be it is not your day, or may be you can hope for a 2nd wind.
As I get older and need more warm-up, I practically run the course once before the actual race anyway. I would pay attention to the road conditions as well as if there is anything that may make GPS less accurate (no clear sky/too many turns). You can make some adjustments on what readings you need.
Forerunner 201/301 is no good. Once you have 205, 305, 405, you will realize it is pretty accurate.
But even this can be a little tricky. Consider: If you use instantaneous pace, it can be wildly erratic. Pace is time/distance, and since distance is determined over a very short range in this case, the error is magnified. If you use Lap pace for one mile laps, you could do that thing where you run your first 800m in 3:00, the second in 3:15. Your mile pace is right on target at 6:15, but you're running 6:30 pace when you hit that marker. (This is kinda like what happened to Flyer.) Make your laps too short (ie quarter mile) and you will Go nuts Have suspect accuracy because of the short distance. So maybe make your laps 0.5 miles, which are long enough to be accurate, but short enough to give you a good snapshot. But for me, that's too much damn beeping and watch-minding. Personally, I like 1k laps when racing metric distances -- makes the math easier. But you see my point -- those adjustments aren't as real-time as you might think, and if you have too much input, you're a slave to the device, and you could lose focus on the actual racing.