Piwi - congrats on crossing the 50 mile barrier once again!  I did NOT catch those races - I need to find a way to watch them.

Steve - ugh, that's unfortunate for your coach.  I hope he didn't provoke a relapse with racing.

Marky_Mark - glad the shoes worked out!

Flavio - that is a big week for you, with a very big long run.

Asmith- a belated welcome!  I don't do trail running at all, so I am unqualified to respond to your question

DavePNW - very nice pacing job.  And you have time to rebuild fitness, though of course the older we are, the longer it seems to take to rebuild.

a smith Welcome! I also use anger as fuel plenty often. This world leaves no shortage of things to be angry about.

Piwi Sick 5 X 1k workout. That's one of my least favorite workouts ever, very very tough.

Mark That race sounds wild ! Would you say it was "fun" overall?

My Week:

Totals: 48 miles, 77.3 kilometers, 6:22:54, Vert: 3,553 feet / 1,082 meters

My Thursday race was postponed due to the smoke from Canadas fires. Did a VO2 max workout Friday morning to make up for it. The race got postponed to next Thursday. The Thursday after that, 6/22, is a road 5k. It's not a PR course but I'm hoping to beat my high school 5k PR of 17:44, which ... technically, is my 5k PR in the sense that it's the fastest 5k race I've done. But it's not my fastest 5k ever.

I think I am going to treat the 5k as my peak race for the season and then start transitioning to marathon training. For now I'm thinking about roughly going with Jack Daniels Plan C since that's designed for a mixed race season that ends with a marathon. I'm still not entirely sure if that's the right move or not. This will have been a fairly short season for short distance but it's been fun.

Late weekly

Enjoying a little unstructured time time before the fall race training begins.  I did get some quality later in the week.  Not sure if it is the warmer weather (not complaining) or just some accumulated fatigue but the first "fast" miles felt harder than normal but they got much more manageable. I'm glad to see so many quality weeks and some folks seeming to get healthy!

Weekly for period: From: 06/05/2023 To 06/11/2023

Total distance: 75.73mi

Merkle good job on the race replacement workout. That 3.20 km pace looks great.

Fishy I find my first fast miles to be tougher than the latter during workouts. I'm sure it's our age and getting the heart rate high enough.

I doubled yesterday to allow myself to go fishing today 

Flavio I hope you feel better after this week. Put me down in the short legs list too 

A Smith - Yup strength training can definitely cause annoying injuries and get in the way of your running.
At least for me it's always a case of either poor form or too much too soon.
And then poor form is a tricky subject, you can't really take much advice from the internet because everyone is so different.
It's better to have a professional looking at you in person and providing advice about form for you in particular.
Longer/shorter legs, longer/shorter arms, longer/shorter torso, good or bad ankle dorsiflexion, all that requires adjustment.

As Mark Rippetoe says - "Nothing as frail as a little skinny old (running ) man... Little skinny 145 lbs (me!!!!) old man that runs, gets pneumonia and... dies"  I disagree with the last statement, as it is questionable if running doesn't add to your immune system, but I agree that "running" and "skinny" are almost synonyms - you wanna get faster, gets lean and skinny. And, I believe now, as we age, we losing muscle progressively and we don't fight, we compromise the quality of our future lives.

Mark Rippetoe

People who don't know me might think I hate running - especially those who "know" me last few months. People who really know me, know that I love running. I enjoy it a lot.

In reality, I am just trying to find a right balance between aerobic conditioning and getting stronger. Not getting buffed, but just getting as strong as I can because the force of nature as we age is against me - trying to dissipate my barely existent  muscle mass into nothing

I am reading another good book (applicable, at least) where I read some funny excerpt:

...

I'd like you notice something about ... activities that play out in the Arena of Life.

None of them involve running, biking, swimming or skiing for hours. None of them are feats of aerobic activities. Instead, they all involve expressions of strength, power, mobility, and balance. Let's face it: if you find you have to run 10 miles tomorrow, you have just probably lost the game of Life. Something Extraordinary and Very Bad has happened. Sure, you could train for this exigency, just as fencer could train for the unexpected marathon. But... The fencer will need power and balance on the practice floor tomorrow, not extreme aerobic endurance, and you will need power to pull a trunk out of the attic or heave your granddaughter up into your shoulders.

.

Whatever we call it, we are talking about the ability to get out of bed, snatch a child from danger, lift a box overhead into a cupboard, pick up a heavy bag of groceries, leap for joy, play Frisbee with a dog, row a boat across the pond, or make love to our spouse

...

Not trying to convince anybody, just sharing what I think I was missing all these years. Unfortunately... Now I have to fight more aggressively in the brutal sport we call Aging

Btw, in the same book, I read some interesting stuff about muscle loss as we age. Some of you probably know that, but I am quite illiterate in this sense and just share with people who also, like I am, didn't know. Most of the muscle mass loss with aging happens in a the Fiber Type II - big muscles, the fast twitch muscles, the muscles that provide us with power when we make extreme effort (sprinting?). Very little loss is happening in Fiber I, slow twitch muscle - that's why people can run long distances for until they are very very old. But they lose power and strength because when you run in aerobic range, you are still working out slow twitch muscle. And with loss of Fiber II type, you lose power and strength and getting frail. The good news - you can restore (not improve or increase but restore) fast twitch muscle and get your power back at any age.

I really didn't know that the most of the muscle loss as we age happens in the Fiber II muscle - and that make sense when we see how frail some older people are.

[edited a bit to see if I could fix the source code]

Hey all! I know I’ve been a bit quiet here. Just wanted to touch base. 

The reasons I haven’t been around are two-fold: not much to talk about and just kind of busy. Lots of family stuff going on and teaching a condensed summer class. I’m pretty okay with how running is going. I’m managing to keep up a base mileage in the 30s, even if a bit lower than I’d like. 

I ran a local 5k two weeks ago that went well, all things considered. It made me realize that I was almost completely back to normal after donating blood (the race was exactly 4 weeks post). The test run I did this past week confirmed that. Planning to keep doing some running and speedwork before I head to Germany for a few months, where I likely won’t be able to keep up the best routine but hope to maintain a a solid base for when I return 12 weeks out from Philly.

(Marathon post ahead--This is probably the last time I do that... though I say that now. I likely won't properly tune-in again until I get back from Germany. Apologies in advance!)

Fishy, you’re right! I’d love to have MA temps right now! (Though not the smoke. Hope all the folks dealing with that were/are okay). And don’t worry, I’m not judging you ;-) I’m aware that at some point in the summer, everyone suffers together. I agree about feeling lighter and faster without the hydration belt/pack, though. One of the reasons I like races is not having to worry about my own hydration. Ultra running killed that for me, alas. Thankfully I get to escape to northern Europe during some of the hottest months, but you’re right, I won’t be able to prepare for the cold temps in Philly at all. Maybe I need to start running in an ice skating rink :-) I actually did Nov. races before where I had to wear gloves and a jacket, so at least I’ll know what to wear. 

It would be great if you ran Philly! I’d definitely make the effort to meet-up before or afterwards. Still waiting on my fall schedule to know if I fly in Fri or Saturday. You’re definitely on track for training for any fall race. 

Also I completely agree about Lasik and there are many procedures that should be considered medical/insurable and not “cosmetic.” It’s definitely on my long-term wish-list. 

Darkwave, 

<p>&nbsp;</p><blockquote pid="a74eec6ec93a49b2bc8c7f31c25bbea9">

<p>As for multiple quotes, I do it "brute force" style - I open multiple tabs, with one tab as my primary post.&nbsp; Using the menu at the top, I swap that post to display "source code."</p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p>I then use another tab to quote a particular statement.&nbsp; Once I have the reply with the quote, I swap that one to display source code as well, and I copy the HTML.</p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p>I then paste the HTML into my main response tab, and repeat this process for each quote.&nbsp; Once that's done, I swap out of source code mode and write my responses.</p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p>Does that make sense?&nbsp; It's one of those things that takes longer to explain by writing it out than it would if I could just show you.</p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

</blockquote>

Thanks for your help re: quoting! I think I got it? [Edited to add: I guess not. What am I doing wrong?]

And kudos on the training these last weeks before your half. Glad the head-cold didn’t last and kind of good that the medicine hiccup didn’t affect your training too much (Even without being on your “A’” game, 25 x 400s sounds really intense! Especially with only 100m recoveries). That line between a challenging and an excessively challenging workout is one we all walk all the time, I guess. Also great splits for your up-and-down-ladder workout last week. But I’m intrigued about your Hoka shoe recommendation. It looks like a lot of cushioning, but streamlined from the standard more bulky look. I just bought a pair of the ASICS Nimbus-25s, and they really changed the model on this one. I want to like it, but it doesn’t do turns well and feels a bit like the Vaporfly, but without the carbon plate. Been doing most of my runs in the Brooks Ghost-14s, but I know that’s not such a good idea, either. 

Btw, here’s a great place to see the Ramsden win: https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/300902823/new-zealand-athlete-maia-ramsden-creates-history-wins-ncaa-1500m-crown

Great running, Krash. Looks like you’re in shape for your 24-hour! Any specific goals? 

Cal, thanks for sharing your running journey! I didn’t find it boring at all. It’s kind of cool how it involves the whole family. Mine also started with soccer. I played midfield for a long time because I was the only player fit enough to run up and down the field. Eventually after grad school I realized it was easier to go out for a run on my own than figure out a schedule that could accommodate training and games. And my parents also used soccer as a disciplining measure, ha ha. I was so happy when I was 16 and could drive myself to my own games.  

Ah, I see. Yes, I agree. Twice a year is reasonable, especially if you’re tracking something and want to see if a change in habits or diet may be fixing it. 

Also, US foods don’t have enough fiber. Especially the bread, which can be a great source, has it all sucked out of it. Sounds like you’ve got a really healthy diet. And kudos on the chin-ups! I agree that there’s something about getting so excited about accomplishing a certain number that one loses focus.

As for the balance between running and other fitness, I think the solution is also to have a routine of difficult, physical tasks every so often. For example, once every three months I have to trim all the trees in the garden. Since Florida has no winter, things grow year-round. I trim my trees manually—that is, with a non-electric tree pruner. So I’m carrying this tool up and down a ladder and climbing trees (like a 10-year-old) and activating all kinds of muscles I never do… then I have to gather all the boughs and take several trips to the front yard (a 100m trek) carrying 30-40 pounds. This way I secure this feeling of still being able to do things that could actually save my life someday, not just running. 

Flavio, ha ha re crossing the Mexican border… my budget doesn’t really include that, either. The closest I get to beating the US medical market is getting a few medicines on traveler’s insurance when I go to Germany. 

Also great running in France and back again! I love training while traveling because all that walking is an added bonus. One does have to be extra vigilant about injuries, though. Good call on a cut-back week. When building mileage, I like to do 3 weeks build and one cut back. You’re looking strong for this stage of the training, though. 

Dave, what was it that made you think 26.2 were achievable before doing a 5k? Was that your first ever race? Or did you at least start with a 10k or half? But also nice job on the pacing! That’s a skill I’d like to have. I would either come in way too early or way too late. 

wcrunner, sorry to read about the slowdown on training. Hope things are doing okay and that you can run your race this weekend. 

Longboat, happy to read the surgery went well! Continued good recovery to you. I imagine your cabin fever must be crazy. Are you maybe able to swim? Like with one of those water casts and only with the arms? 

Mmerkle, nice job on that 2-miler two weeks ago! You’re annoyed that it’s 20-seconds off from your high school PR, but you were training much differently (and not for marathons) back then. You haven’t had that much time to put in a long, consistent cycle of shorter races (and it may not have been in 80 degree weather, either?), so I’d see what happens at the end of this summer series. Sorry your race got postponed but cool make-up workout. Hope you meet your 5k goal next week! 

Piwi, awesome random and fast 5K! Sometimes you just have to take the day given to you. Too bad it’s not always on an official course. Still, that’s an awesome sign for your fitness! And thanks for sharing those race results. I am terrible at following them, but do think it’s pretty cool to know. Especially the NCAA women’s 1500. That was a lesson in patience. Ramsden had a great race (kudos to the Kiwi!), but Tuohy had a bad one. Watching it I was thinking about the mental toughness needed in both situations, and it’s always easier to pass than to get passed. 

I agree with mmerkle, nice 5 x 1000s (just did that workout today as well). I am not a fan of the 400m recoveries. Well done! Oh! And nice low recovery heart rate there. If my heart rate is 110, I’m probably not running. 

Steve, so many thoughts go through my head each time I register for a race, commit to training and pull off a mostly good cycle, and then underperform at the race. All that doubt lives rent free in the mind, but you need to kick those squatters out. Don’t know if you’re still wondering what to do right now—sounds like a bit of a break was the right answer and you’re already collecting ideas for next time, including a running buddy. Don’t forget that you just completed a 6 month training cycle and ran a solid race You also have a few PBs to show for it. Now, hope can continue to take things a little easy and then see about some of those shorter distances again.

If you believe you can do better in the marathon, then you can. There’s no point in giving up until it no longer matters to you.

And I agree with Jmac. I was actually following a plan that did something like what he’s suggesting, and it worked well for a lot of people running the plan (ftr, it’s a German plan, but not one like this Nils person did, but also not too far off it). It didn’t work for me, but it may work for you. 

Total side note, but I was surprised to see you take a shower before your race. It must be the normal wake-up routine thing, but I would have skipped that! 

RP, awesome 100-mile week! And I’m sure you annoyed everyone, including me with the feeling “disgustingly fine” afterwards. If I ever even attempted a high-mileage week (which for me would probably cap at 80) I would probably also do the things Dave said he did for the reasons he listed. 

mmerkle, I take it you’re aiming for a PhD! In what? And yes, for all the non-US folks, there’s no point in pursuing a graduate degree in the US unless they’re paying you for it. Otherwise you’re basically just paying for that credential. One can get either a teaching-assistantship or research-assistantship that covers tuition and provides a small stipend. I did my MA with a teaching-assistantship in the US living at my parents’ house, which meant I could eek by without student debt. That is, until I went abroad and my home institution decided I still needed to pay tuition and parking fees (so stupid). Anyway, best of luck, mmerkle. Being a uni member is one of the most conducive professions for being a long-distance runner. :-)  It’s a huge shift in when having to pick up a 9-5. 

Welcome Mark’s daughter, Claudia, to the world!! May she have wings on her feet that can take her wherever her heart desires. There’s also something fitting about reclaiming your CR from your first daughter’s birth in the week of your second’s. You should get to rename the segment. 

And nice job not dying in that race! That’s reeeeealllly crazy incline, especially for that distance. 

Mikkey, hope you can continue to build the mileage without the PF flaring up. When I had it, I was KT taping my foot 24/7 until the pain finally stopped being there. It allowed me to keep building without worrying about the PF. I say that as my PF is starting to flare up again. Going to start taking my own advice again soon. Also, fjust thought you'd like to know, I recently got an ad for cremation. I guess they’ve run out of older folks to sell things to. 

Great to see you here, asmith! I’m definitely better about posting here than the ultra thread, though that’s not saying much. And grumpy running is a thing! But it is more like a slow-burning coal you can tap into sometimes (I like that imagery). The 14-miler sounds like a great race, especially considering uncomfortable extras. It’s not always about time, right? Were the course conditions similar to what you ran last time? And did you feel strong and controlled throughout? I am new to the ultra scene, but one of the first things I took to heart was to keep up the strength training. 

Soo... I think that's it for now. Since I'm being boring and slow-ish (running-wise) I feel I have less to share, so I also tune-in less. But  even if I do zone out for a while, I'll most likely come back.

For the sake of completeness, here’s my logs from the last two weeks. 

Weekly for period: From: 05/29/2023 To 06/04/2023

Total distance: 37.4 mi

Weekly for period: From: 06/05/2023 To 06/11/2023

Total distance: 36.52 mi + 9 miles bike 

 

As Mark Rippetoe says - "Nothing as frail as a little skinny old (running ) man... Little skinny 145 lbs (me!!!!) old man that runs, gets pneumonia and... dies"  I disagree with the last statement, as it is questionable if running doesn't add to your immune system, but I agree that "running" and "skinny" are almost synonyms - you wanna get faster, gets lean and skinny. And, I believe now, as we age, we losing muscle progressively and we don't fight, we compromise the quality of our future lives.

 

Mark Rippetoe

 

People who don't know me might think I hate running - especially those who "know" me last few months. People who really know me, know that I love running. I enjoy it a lot.

 

In reality, I am just trying to find a right balance between aerobic conditioning and getting stronger. Not getting buffed, but just getting as strong as I can because the force of nature as we age is against me - trying to dissipate my barely existent  muscle mass into nothing

 

I am reading another good book (applicable, at least) where I read some funny excerpt:

...

I'd like you notice something about ... activities that play out in the Arena of Life.

 

None of them involve running, biking, swimming or skiing for hours. None of them are feats of aerobic activities. Instead, they all involve expressions of strength, power, mobility, and balance. Let's face it: if you find you have to run 10 miles tomorrow, you have just probably lost the game of Life. Something Extraordinary and Very Bad has happened. Sure, you could train for this exigency, just as fencer could train for the unexpected marathon. But... The fencer will need power and balance on the practice floor tomorrow, not extreme aerobic endurance, and you will need power to pull a trunk out of the attic or heave your granddaughter up into your shoulders.

.

Whatever we call it, we are talking about the ability to get out of bed, snatch a child from danger, lift a box overhead into a cupboard, pick up a heavy bag of groceries, leap for joy, play Frisbee with a dog, row a boat across the pond, or make love to our spouse

...

 

Not trying to convince anybody, just sharing what I think I was missing all these years. Unfortunately... Now I have to fight more aggressively in the brutal sport we call Aging

 

Btw, in the same book, I read some interesting stuff about muscle loss as we age. Some of you probably know that, but I am quite illiterate in this sense and just share with people who also, like I am, didn't know. Most of the muscle mass loss with aging happens in a the Fiber Type II - big muscles, the fast twitch muscles, the muscles that provide us with power when we make extreme effort (sprinting?). Very little loss is happening in Fiber I, slow twitch muscle - that's why people can run long distances for until they are very very old. But they lose power and strength because when you run in aerobic range, you are still working out slow twitch muscle. And with loss of Fiber II type, you lose power and strength and getting frail. The good news - you can restore (not improve or increase but restore) fast twitch muscle and get your power back at any age.

 

I really didn't know that the most of the muscle loss as we age happens in the Fiber II muscle - and that make sense when we see how frail some older people are.

Run more.

Dk thanks for responding to everyone. Good to hear the 5k went well. When you say you are not a fan of 400m recoveries in a 5 x 1000 workout, why is that ?

Your trip to Europe sounds awesome.

Yeah, I'm excited, except I'm traveling with a non-runner, so it makes it harder to negotiate time to run. But I'm looking forward to the cooler (we'll see... it can get quite warm in July + Aug) temps and trails.

As for the 400m recoveries... it's just very short. :-) It's definitely a better workout, but it's hard. I'm not a fan in the same way that I'm not a fan of spinach. I know it's good for me, but I'm not going to put it on my plate for fun.