Forums >Racing>Competitive Jerks Racing and Training - 2023
Problem Child
RP - Having a bunch of muscle like he does while also doing marathon-level cardio just doesn't jive. The training, inputs, and physiological inputs that lead to one are practically the antithesis of the other. There's no way that dude is natural. Interesting on the bus delay. I noticed the race started late and was curious about that. Flavio - Feeling any better post race? DKT - Glass City looks interesting - and I haven't been to/through Toledo in 20-something years at this point. I haven't decided on a goal for spring yet - it's between two extremes. Possibly just work on speed (5k stuff) or run another 100. The one I have picked out would be more of a Chicago Marathon course profile compared to the NYC profile of Heartland I did in October - and it's a certified course, too!
RP - Having a bunch of muscle like he does while also doing marathon-level cardio just doesn't jive. The training, inputs, and physiological inputs that lead to one are practically the antithesis of the other. There's no way that dude is natural.
Interesting on the bus delay. I noticed the race started late and was curious about that.
Flavio - Feeling any better post race?
DKT - Glass City looks interesting - and I haven't been to/through Toledo in 20-something years at this point. I haven't decided on a goal for spring yet - it's between two extremes. Possibly just work on speed (5k stuff) or run another 100. The one I have picked out would be more of a Chicago Marathon course profile compared to the NYC profile of Heartland I did in October - and it's a certified course, too!
There is another non-muscular guy with a youtube channel who recently announced he is now sponsored by the same supplement company. Eric Florsberg or something like that. Guy went from just under sub-4 to breaking 3 and I think just PR'd again at the CIM.
I think you should pick one with the biggest medal.
https://www.philadelphiamarathon.com/info/results/
holy shit...what the hell is going on? CIM, Boston, Philly. Is it too fucking hard to buy medals for every participant? Who is grabbing a second medal?
I never saw this years (paging fishy) but 2015 looks like a badass year to have run Philly. Maybe the could just hand out bells so we can give out angel wings all winter.
*makes child-like raging bell ringing motions*
side note: My wife actually told me my son saw all my medals in my room and said I needed to share them. My wife told him I earned them. I actually started to wonder what I'll do with them in a few years. Some from relays I look at and wonder why I even care.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
I've still got all of mine. There's a story behind every medal IMO. You always remember some races, typically the particularly good and bad days. But it's amazing some of the memories the other medals bring back too, all sorts of random things from "oh that was the race where I forgot my gels" to "that one was upwind the whole way".
3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)
10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)
* Net downhill course
Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!
Up next: Still working on that...
"CONSISTENCY IS KING"
It's as if something happened during that big 76 mile week, like dunno, my body revolted and I lost 5-10% of fitness overnight. Maybe something hit me, my immune system managed it relatively well that I didn't feel harsh symptoms (just sore throat and cough), but whatever it was it hit me enough to lose fitness.
It's as if something happened during that big 76 mile week, like dunno, my body revolted and I lost 5-10% of fitness overnight.
Maybe something hit me, my immune system managed it relatively well that I didn't feel harsh symptoms (just sore throat and cough), but whatever it was it hit me enough to lose fitness.
I remember when I hit 120km a couple weeks running in 2020, it felt like everything was harder after that. Bit like you just described, like my body just revolted.
I find titling my races bring back memories. Typing out verbal diarrhea also helps.
I still have all my medals, and bibs. They are artfully displayed in a box under my bed. Well actually I recently had to move it up higher because the dog got into it and chewed up one of my bibs. IDK why I keep them or what I'll ever do with them. I never access the box unless I'm putting something new in it. I wish they didn't give out medals, but they all do (aside from parkruns and a few very low-key exceptions), and I feel obligated to take them. I do value the marathon ones though; if I were to start pitching them, I'd keep those.
Dave
A little behind here...
Flavio Great effort out there. Glad you were able to take a couple of things away from the race. I wonder if you had caught something before the race started, and although it wasn't to the point of you feeling it, it was enough to hinder your running? There's no way you don't have sub 3 ability in my opinion. Something was off with your body that day. Also, I'd say 2 X 6 miles at marathon pace is no easy effort. Maybe don't worry too much about that one workout. And the war against the marathon never ends haha.
Mark Great race report. That strategy sounded really good. How does the scoring for the series work? It sounds like it's ranked by total time or something.
Cal Glad to see you back in action, nice race!
jblackjr Welcome. Looking forward to seeing you reach your goals.
JMac I'm sincerely hoping for you to recover so you can run again. This thing has really been dogging you.
Flavio - Tough race bud. I have some thoughts on your race and some general thoughts.
TLDR Summary
1. Fall marathon runners are often hit by seasonal sickness and traveling only makes this worse
2. People should race more and stress less
3. Flavio ran too many miles/intensity at peak, beat himself up, and got sick by race day
4. Flavio should run some more races for fun and lean into his strengths and take advantage of his current fitness
5. I think Flavio will easily go sub 3 soon enough
General thoughts that I've been thinking that apply to a lot of runners:
Running late Fall marathons is a mixed bag. You get cooler weather, but it is cold and flu season. People start getting seasonal sicknesses at the same time that you are most physically exhausted by your peak weeks. Add on traveling to a destination and you introduce a lot of potential exposure in transit and at the pre-race activities. You also come into contact with strains of things that you might not have been exposed to yet.
Too much focus on one goal race. I know marathons need to be spaced more than 5Ks, but runners seem to get overly focused on one race. This adds stress and anxiety, contributes to overtraining and reduces wellness and good rest. My guess is that people focus so much on one goal race due to temperature and course profile -- obviously there are world renowned races that people circle on the calendar. This focus on perfect course conditions, hydration, the consistency/flavor of a gel or gummy, ideal shoes, heart rates etc. is seducing people into being soft. CalBears and Marky are two good examples of just the opposite. They show up and compete hard. A lot of things went sideways during Keen's 100 miler. but he just pressed on and won. I used to race a lot as a kid, some days I felt good, some days I felt lousy -- I always tried to beat everyone. When you race a lot you stop caring so much about one specific race/time and just learn to take what life gives you and do your best. In contrast, putting your emotional well being into one race and hoping the stars line up on that day is begging for failure. Maybe you don't want to race so many marathons. 1/2 marathons,10 milers and 10Ks at all out effort are great for confidence and feedback. I don't understand these warm up races, where people run conservatively. You are not driving your dad's car, go wild and don't be afraid to wreck things and blow up. Every PR I have were positive splits -- eventually you learn to go out hard, but not too too hard, and just hang on. That's one joy in racing, trying to find that line and straddle it.
Flavio specific thoughts:
I think you probably ran too many miles at your peak at too high of an intensity and wore your body and your immune system down. My guess is you were sick on race day. First, I think you should squeeze more out of your miles before taking them up so high, give yourself time to see if improvement is happening. Second, I know there are a lot of adherents to the fast long run here, but that's really piling it on, and hoping the marginal benefit is worth it. I think that is the last place where a runner should add more intensity, and only after everything else is already high quality and already part of the routine. Maybe I'm behind the times, and everyone slams long runs now?
I think you were more stressed than one should be as the race approached, this seems to be an issue for you. Maybe do some more 10K-1/2M races and try to get the spark of joy and fun back! Your 1/2 time was really good, and you can expand on that and really crush some 10Ks. If you can go ahead and start training again at a bit lower miles than your last cycle and build up, you will reap the benefits of 2 cycles and be ready to take down your white whale. Before you overcooked things and got sick, you were showing 2:55 fitness. A little patience and relaxation and you will cruise to a sub 3! I will be pulling for you!
So, back when I did this series in the past, it used to be based on placing. Say there were 600 people in the race, and you came 1st, you scored 600, 2nd got 599, etc. Your series score was the sum of the individual race scores. This made for a couple of interesting tactical factors:
1. Not everyone running a particular race is running the entire series, so it helped to know who your rivals were.
2. Getting runners between yourself and your rivals could have a significant impact.
3. Relative time didn't matter, just placing.
It did make for some very tactical racing, which was a lot of fun. The 2017/18 series came down to the last race with three of us a chance to win it (and double points on the line). Chris Trent went for broke and went out all guns blazing but faded and I ran him down around the 16km mark.
Now it's based on a percentile score for each race based on time. So, first place gets 100, last place gets 0, and everyone else gets scored on a sliding scale based on where their time sits relative to first place, e.g. if the winner runs 1:20 and last place runs 2:40, then running 2:00 would get you a score of 50.
What this means is time now matters a lot more than placing - winning 1 race by a huge margin would probably outweigh getting narrowly beaten in all the other 4 races. I don't know if I love this system because I don't think it recognises consistency across the series quite as well, but it is what it is. It does mean there is an incentive to extract every last second out of every last race (whereas under the old system you could just coast the last few km if it wasn't gonna impact placing).
DavePNW I’m also a sucker for medals and feel obligated to take them. Maybe next race I do I’ll just say no thanks. I mean…if I can do it for a bear I can do it for a medal right? I actually considered cutting the ribbon off my medal this year and using it as a coaster.
Mmmm Bop
Seriously this. It’s a good course for some people who can handle rolling hills (or even prefer them); tough for others who like it pancake flat. People who call it a cheater course without having run it are just trolling.
I was disappointed not getting to CIM as I’ve never actually run a point to point downhill race before as all 42 marathons I’ve run have either been flat or rolling hills.
Just out of curiosity, if you had to run your marathon PR course in reverse, how much different do you think your finish time would be? My PR is at London and it’s slightly downhill for the first 5k…so I’m saying I’d run it maybe 60/90 seconds slower. NYC is definitely a marathon I’d run faster if it was reversed.
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
Need2tri/dktrotter - Yes, it's very possible/likely that I've peaked early.I did have down time, first in August due to sickness, then again in October as I fully tapered for the half and then had a recovery week afterwards.But yeah, I might have peaked 3 weeks earlier.
DKTrotter - Awesome job at the mile race!
Keen - I'm feeling better recovered physically than after my half marathon race in October. This "not cramping" thing is absolutely amazing.I'm fairly sure the extra mileage + consistent strength training helped a lot in bridging the muscular endurance gap I had.I'm not 100% clear of the cold though, at least now the shivers and headaches seem to be gone.
Medals - I've thrown many out. In fact I threw my Valencia medal into the hotel room's trash can. My wife got mad at me and picked it up, she says it's too nice to throw away.
MMerkle - Yeah, that's my feeling, I had some underlying sickness, my immune system was fighting it well so I didn't feel many symptoms, but it was strong enough to cause damage to my aerobic capacity.2x6 miles at MP is a hard workout. However, because my MP is much easier, it shouldn't feel that hard. My MP is HMP (6:13) + 37 seconds per mile (6:50).
MT - I cannot thank you enough for your feedback, I truly appreciate it!I had never thought about it, but here in the Northern Hemisphere this period between early November and mid January is always bad to me with regards to getting sick or having allergies annoying me. I caught a bad respiratory infection in the Christmas of 2021, then caught another around New Years eve in 2022, and they all had been preceded by a few weeks of being half-sick so to speak.So much so that this year we've booked a trip to Athens in hopes of escaping this cycle.
I'm definitely guilty of putting too much focus in one race. After my last marathon in 2021 I promised myself that I'd not sign up for another marathon too early.Yet I did it anyway. The thing with these big marathons is that you have to sign up 7 or 8 months beforehand because it's so hard to find bibs and hotels and flights.I might have to chose a smaller race next time so that I can sign up much closer to the race.Like, keep training, and when training is good I sign up for a race.I could maybe race more and I did include a fun race earlier this year, the Porto Eco Trail and have another one lined up, the Porto San Silvestre race in December 30th.I also raced some hard courses earlier this year, my 10K PR from February was a very hilly race.I do not see myself running fun-marathons though, the recovery is too big and the risk of injury too great. At least until I've reached my objective.
With the risk if sounding incredibly arrogant, it should not be this hard for someone like me to run a sub 3 with a 1h22 half and having averaged 65 miles per week. That's at the root of my frustration, but is also what feeds me to keep going.
I somehow feel more confident now that I can achieve a sub 3.
In hind sight I believe now that the miles were *maybe* slightly higher towards the end of the cycle, but I put more weight to the fact I didn't back off the strength training until 10 days before the race.In fact, it was after going all out in a squat session 2 days after my longest week ever that everything started going downhill.I now see that I probably should have switched to a "maintenance mode" about 4 to 5 weeks out on my strength training, so that I could complete the hardest block of the running training better.I was indeed very stressed, in large part because I had such a bad memory of my last marathon race where I was utterly destroyed afterwards, and not so much because I was worrying too much if I could run the best marathon I could. I was very apprehensive of the potential damage.Now that I've managed to run a marathon and be okay-ish afterwards, I feel like I won't be as stressed about it in the future.Thanks again for the kind words!
me - Of course I'm searching the web for an ideal next marathon race.
Criteria are:
- In Europe, I don't want to travel too far
- Feb/Mar/Apr next year
- Mostly guaranteed good weather (4C to 13C / 39F to 55F)
- Extremely flat
- course protects against the wind somehow
- Has another race on the same weekend for my wife (10k or half)
- Starts no later than 9:30am
These things are nice to have:
- Decent field, I feel like having at least 800 finishers would help to have somebody to run with in the near sub 3 pace
Things I do NOT care about
scenic routes, crowd support, goodie bag, do they give medals or t-shirts or not, bands on the course.
I also do not mind a boring or even a loop course.
Sevilla is flat but is out due to being too hot. Same thing for Barcelona and Roma and Milano.
Boston (The original one, in the UK) - flat flat flat, but it can be either warm or too windy on race day.
Manchester - Has no other races on the same weekend
Berlin/Paris/Etc - Berlin is impossible to get into, Paris is very likely too warm and not flat enough.
Here are the best candidates so far:
https://www.maratonbpcastellon.com/ - Feb 25th - Almost flat, but has a hill gaining 40m from km 25 to 30. It has a strong field though.
https://bienwald-marathon.de/ - March 10th - Very flat. Almost guaranteed good weather. Small field though, only 400 finishers.
https://www.linzmarathon.at/en/index.html - April 7th, flat, guaranteed good weather, roughly 500 finishers.
https://www.lcc-wien.at/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=743 - LCC Vienna Spring marathon. It's a 7km course on that park where Kipchoge ran sub 2 hours for the marathon. 6 laps on the course. 100% flat. However, only 21 finishers.
I'll keep looking.
How bout Zurich, mate? I will likely be running there too, and its pretty flat. A bit on the pricey side, but I am sure I can pace you for the first kilometer and then claim that I had some part in your sub 3 victory Its a bit later but if 18 degrees in Valencia didn't shock you, then 15 degrees in Zurigo won't do any harm.
Would be really good fun and its the On Cloud race, so their shirts are stellar. AND - their half marathon is also super cool - so the missus would be pleased!
HM: 1:47 (9/20) I FM: 3:53:11 (9/23)
2024 Goals: run a FM & HM + stay healthy!
Flavio - I mentioned Rotterdam before, most likely ideal temperature, 3 hour pacers, flat, hotels near the start/finish line and they have a 1/4 marathon. Paris is definitely flat as I’ve run it, but yeah there’s that chance it could be too hot!
Mikkey - Thanks, Rotterdam is sold out, I could try a waiting list.
That said,
Any feedback on NewPort, Wales ? https://newportwalesmarathon.co.uk/
It's fast and flat, nearly guaranteed good weather. My only concern would be that they don't speak English 😈
How bout Zurich, mate? I will likely be running there too, and its pretty flat. A bit on the pricey side, but I am sure I can pace you for the first kilometer and then claim that I had some part in your sub 3 victory Its a bit later but if 18 degrees in Valencia didn't shock you, then 15 degrees in Zurigo won't do any harm. Would be really good fun and its the On Cloud race, so their shirts are stellar. AND - their half marathon is also super cool - so the missus would be pleased!
Now we're talking! So long as it does not snow during the race like during 2016 😂
This should be really flat. Gotta get lucky with the wind though.
IIRC you run part of the course nearly every day ? How's the wind there ?
Also Re: Pricey, if I chose to run in Zürich I'm pretty sure the entry fee will not be of any concern as compared to everything else 😂