Forums >Racing>Competitive Jerks Racing and Training - 2023
Problem Child
Something interesting about Nevada gold and ultra running
John Trent is on the board of western states. Tim has run it like 25 times and has a buckle down doing that. The weather this week is ‘a shit ton of snow and wind.’
https://www.kolotv.com/2023/02/28/experiencing-history-hard-way-trans-sierra-trek-aims-correct-history/
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
Thanks for the compliments on the race everyone. I'm really trying to embrace the dw racing philosophy of not checking the watch much.
JMac Lol that might be just as much a punishment for the Waltons.
Mark I sorta tapered. The three days leading up were all easy days, 11.2k, 9.6k and 5.6k in your units.
Dave 16 X 400 is crazy, especially with such a short rest. I've never done anything like that.
dw Lots of work this week. Lots of cross training, nice. I keep trying to do 2 leg strength sessions a week but I often just do 1.
wcrunner Glad to see you're planning some races. Those sound... maddening.
Overweight per CDC BMI
I wanted to get some comments on negative splits in a Half. At what point do does a negative split approach get too extreme where it becomes very counter productive? Meaning the banking energy concept can only go so far if you are running the first half of the race a lot slower than the late miles and your overall time suffers considerably.
The reason I ask is because I don't truly know what time I am trying to get for my upcoming Half when my only true goal is to beat my PR from 2019, whether by 5 minutes or by 5 seconds. My confidence in a specific time is shaky due to how shaky my training has been the past 6 weeks and I want to be conservative. The 10k PR I ran in a training 3 weeks ago (7:14 pace) gives me a Half goal of 7:36 pace per the calculators and I know I could have gone faster in that 10k so that puts me at a goal of 7:21-7:30 pace.
The race course has a gradual incline of +110 feet for the first 8 miles with one big hill and then down a big hill for miles 9-10 with a flat last 3 miles. I am thinking I will pace myself to just under my previous PR pace at 7:36 for the first 8 miles to guarantee myself a PR and then haul ass downhill the last 5 miles. I am thinking worst case scenario is that I run the same pace over the last 5 miles and still PR and best case scenario is I set a Half and a 10k PR in the same race.
Memphis / 38 male
5k - 20:39 / 10k - 43:48 / Half - 1:34:47 / Full - 3:38:10
As for the tightness… one of the most important rules of running is don’t skip the stretching after workouts! It only takes one long-term injury to shift to the mentality of stretching after every single run. An easy warm-up and some dynamic stretches before workouts can help as well.
It looks like Flaw #3 in my running routine has been identified. Unless I am hurting with tightness after a run, I have almost always skipped the post-run stretching. It is more out of laziness and rushed schedule than incompetence to the concept but I guess skipping it for years and having these tightness issues is showing my incompetence.
Flaw #1 is lack of strength work and Flaw #2 is doing express stretching for 3-4 minutes before a run.
To some extent it depends on what style of runner you are. Some people are "better" at negative splits than others. My best races have generally been very even splits but I'm mainly a 'lock in the pace and hold it' kind of runner when I'm in good form with maybe a fast last 400m or so. For me personally, if I tried to run a big negative split, I'd almost certainly leave time on the table by doing that.
The flipside is that running a significant positive split is almost certainly not a good way to run your best race!
For a half, if you've got the effort right, it should start to feel hard from about 2/3rds of the way through, and the last couple of miles you'll really have to dig it in to hold the pace or accelerate. If you feel like you're running on fumes for the last 1km / half mile, you've probably got it right.
The hills in your course will mess with that a little. I PR'ed on a course once which had an extended climb from roughly halfway for four miles, and the last couple miles were a big downhill. The best strategy on that course is that you wanted to be running on fumes by the time you hit the downhill because otherwise you'd left too much in the tank.
On your course, I'd say run to target effort (not pace!) for that first uphill section. Gradual uphills and false flats can mess with your head if you focus too much on pace. Back yourself to nail it on the downhill and flat section at the end.
3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)
10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)
* Net downhill course
Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!
Up next: Still working on that...
"CONSISTENCY IS KING"
As for the tightness… one of the most important rules of running is don’t skip the stretching after workouts! It only takes one long-term injury to shift to the mentality of stretching after every single run.
dktrotter/AndyTN - I subscribe to this theory, and it started after a long term injury for me too. My post-run static stretching routine is like brushing my teeth - it's automatic, and if I skip it I feel like I really missed something. I don't proselytize too much though. I have no proof it does anything, for me or anyone else. Stretching in general is one of the most controversial subjects in our sport, it's a good way to start an argument.
Dave
I always used to be really stiff the day after a hockey game, and never stretched.
When I got into running, I made sure to stretch after almost every run, and never seemed to have the same stiffness issues (except after a really big long run). Therefore, like you I decided that stretching made a difference, and stuck with it.
I'm probably not quite as diligent these days but I still make sure to do it at least after most runs - if not all.
I agree with this. For me, how I feel at mile 8 is usually the indicator of what kind of day I'm going to have.
I think you always want to target even splits (elevation-adjusted), you just need to take your best guess at what your goal finish time is. Pacing a half is hard (for me). More often, I tend to not be aggressive enough. You need to be kind of pushing it nearly from the start - unlike a marathon, none of the miles should feel truly easy. It can be tough to do, because you know you have a long way to go. You just have to remind yourself you trained to hold this pace for 13.1 miles. And while you can certainly blow up in a half, it can never be nearly as dramatic as a marathon blowup. So, take a little risk. (Note: I am now starting to talk to myself.)
Andy Great advice from Mark and Dave, just my two cents, in my humble opinion, sometimes it's good to focus on actually RACING the race. The 10 miler I just did had a lot of downhill the first half and a lot of uphill the second. I honestly wasn't sure how to pace it, so you know what I did? I raced people. Stick with this person/group a minute, how does it feel? Can I pass them and move to the next one? Etc.
Other than that I'd stick with the advice of going by effort/feel. Ideally from training, you know what the effort of that goal pace feels like. I knew what my goal pace FELT like from training, so I stuck with that feeling + racing people.
By the way, this alludes to my issues with the extreme ends of my racing spectrum, the 5k and the marathon. I feel like I can't actually RACE those, they just turn into time trials where for very different reasons I'm holding on to the same steady pace for dear life. I can't tell if I'm doing something wrong like bad pacing, or if 10k-HM is just my "sweet spot"?
Intl. correspondent
Andy - If anything you'll likely positive split this race with the big hill in the second half.I second what Mark said, it should probably start hurting around 14k/9 miles and running on fumes there last 3k/2 miles.For this one race I believe the strategy for you would be to go out between 7:20 - 7:30 and hold on for dear life, though you will lose some precious seconds up the hill (do not try to keep the pace when going uphill) you will make them back downhill at the end.Unlike Dave, I'm always extremely aggressive in races and unless I'm PRing I tend to positive split 😂
Re: Stretching, last I heard you're not supposed to stretch before a run cause your body is not warmed up and you could damage your joints.I don't think you need to stretch every single day either.
But it's good to build the habit of a short routine, with some stretching, some foam rolling, some mobility work and some strength training.
PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021
Up next: some 800m race (or time trials) / Also place in the top 20% in a trail race
Tool to generate Strava weekly
Are we there, yet?
Negative splits: Setting aside the effects of course layout and terrain on pacing, I never plan on negative splits and try for even pacing throughout the race. If I have negative splits, it's because I was able to push harder than expected over the last few miles. The most exceptional example I have of that is a 10 mile race where I thought my training would get me a 7:40-7:45 pace. These are my actual splits: 7:21, 7:26, 7:22, 7:26, 7:21, 7:23, 7:16, 7:19, 7:17, 7:11. After the "fast" first mile split I almost checked my pace to slow down, but it felt easy so I continued at the same effort. I'll believe my perceived effort before I believe my watch any day. After the 5 mile split is when I really started to race and see how many I could catch and pass.
Stretching: I don't stretch unless I have a specific injury or issue that needs it. The only time I did include stretching as a part of my regular routine was when I was a volunteer coach for a HS girls track team. That coincided with a series of small annoying injuries, aches, and pains which disappeared when I stopped stretching. It's served me well for 55 years now to not stretch.
2024 Races:
03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles
05/11 - D3 50K, 9:11:09 05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour
06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.
Andy Forgot to mention stretching. What works for me is active stretching before a run, as in leg swings and walking stretches. Static stretching after, as in "reach and hold". I've read that's what experts recommend, since static stretching is good for loosening up, but doesn't fire up the nervous system and prepare you for that range of motion like active stretching does. Hope this helps.
Thanks for all the pacing comments for the Half and I am over thinking it. As a very important update to this topic, I ran by second fastest 5k (21:44) this morning during my last hard run/workout before taper starts. My legs were still a little sore from my moderate paced 14 miles Sunday, I did 30 minutes of strength work prior, and 4.5 miles before I started running fast. Given all those factors, I am confident I would be able to break 21 minutes and PR with fresh legs. This was definitely a confidence booster and I will be adjusting my Half pacing strategy with a more aggressive time in mind.
As for the negative splitting strategy, I have always been better at racing (other than the marathon) going out aggressive and holding on for dear life. I know the science says a slight negative split is ideal but adrenaline takes over late and I seem to hit the same pace late in a long race whether I went out fast or a little conservative. Mmerkle, I like your comments as it isn't a time trial and racing other people gives us much more adrenaline boost to do more than what our watches say.
Since I am now very confident I will get a PR by at least a couple minutes, I am going to go out more aggressively in the 7:25 range (based on feel), take the uphill mile 7-8 with less aggression, and then use the downhill at miles 8-10 as a springboard into the flat last 3 miles.
RIP Milkman
As for the negative splitting strategy, I have always been better at racing (other than the marathon) going out aggressive and holding on for dear life. I know the science says a slight negative split is ideal but adrenaline takes over late and I seem to hit the same pace late in a long race whether I went out fast or a little conservative.
I think for many of us that negative split, it's because we want to ease into the first part of the race. For a half marathon, I want that first mile to be my slowest. It's on purpose: if that first mile is fast, it means I'm too amped up and overcooked the first one.
I guarantee you that if you go out too fast in a marathon for the first 10K, in no way will your last mile be the fastest. Take a look at the carnage on this thread last year: we only had a few very successful marathons and the majority of them were crash and burn efforts.
I will also add that the shorter the effort, the more it can sometimes be okay to follow your crash and burn strategy (I'm thinking especially at the 5K, where sometimes it's really hard to understand just how hard you have to push the entire way). This of course only applies to people our age: young kids with no endurance, the 5K should be run more like we run half marathons given their lack of endurance and tendency to literally sprint the first 100 meters.
TLDR: if you asked me what my most successful half marathon would look like, it would be HMP+5 or 10 seconds, then HMP for the next 10 miles, then trying to run as hard as a I can over the last 2.1 imagining it like it's a cruise interval. In the absolute best races I've run, you actually may slow down a hair in the last 400 meters because you've just reached the point where your body is finally giving in. That to me means I ran the whole thing perfectly.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
man I'm behind. Still think about this place a lot...
Andy TN : I did a 1 ton swap on my Cherokee. The axles were something around $1,300 before I did lockers, coilovers, new driveshafts, beadlocks, 40s….yeah shoes are cheap. Heck, I’m buying a $750 transfer case doubler I’ll need to assemble after buying some other parts.
Also, good job with the kid getting 2nd place. Sucks about him losing ambition to run after getting passed so maybe he’ll get even more excited next year when he can pass people, and you can remind him how much it sucked getting passed so he doesn’t brag too much.
How are the legs? Still tight or are you stretching more now? I actually forced myself to massage gun last night because after Monday’s threshold run my right inner hamstring was REALLY tight and I could feel it more on Tuesday’s run.
I have no advice about negative splits. I seriously go out at race pace and hang on. FOR ME the most important thing is to run the first half of a race at goal pace. I think it has helped me negative split a few races including my 10k at Thanksgiving. With a “big” downhill I’d expect a TON of runners to wait for the hill to sprint to a finish. Its what a RB of mine does ALL the time. The mentality is “I can run faster going downhill” and they forget “you’ve just spent 8 or 9 miles going slow, and you’re not going to make up 90 seconds in 2 miles of downhill.” Do the math on how much ass you’ll have to haul then give it a shot on an actual run one time. My RB who annoys me with his workouts does that. 8:15/mi pace up hill then sprints to a 6:53 on a downhill for at least a minute to hit a 7:40 mile. Excellent way to do a 7:40/mi workout.
Flavio What did you go to Paris for? Also, I guess I live under a rock because I hadn’t heard it was an Islamic state for a few years. I live under a rock so it’s been a few years since I’d heard the asylum seekers turned it into an Islamic state.
Wait…you’re telling me the Porto District is car Unfriendly? 64 Tv. da Sra. da Lapa - Google Maps yup. Fuck THAT noise.
137 R. da Glória - Google Maps Check this one out from both direction. If I was following the man walking I’d be REALLY concerned about the two vehicles blocking the road.
CIM y’all are HILARIOUS about CIM. Also, I’m a BIG fan boy. For various reasons. I’m also biased since I’ve PR’d every single time I’ve run it. So take my opinion with a grain of pixie dust, rainbows, unicorns, and your favorite drink. I’ve been told it is better than the Oakland Marathon.
Stomach bugs the 2 year old vomited Tuesday night and Wednesday morning. I took the day off work (COVID learned me “fuck work&rdquo and he took a few naps since his sleep was trash. I avoided him as much as possible like a good father training for a marathon. I learned too much about sick kids and marathons from commanderkeen
MarkyMark since you mentioned doing workouts in flats I thought I’d say I only do my workouts in non-super shoes. MY personal belief, after discussing it here with others, is the normal shoe helps build the strength to run faster. Proper form, more feed back, more controlled effort, more exhaustion, etc. The super shoes are there for an added perk. On race day I want some extra pep. On workout day it’s there to do the workout and get the stress. NOT hit a specific target (avoids rant) pace for a 400 or 1 mile workout. My Tuesday workout this week was in cold and wind, and I missed the target PACE (4:03/km) for almost all of them I hit the target of the workout (anaerobic stress) which is more important. I’m sure I could have put my super shoes on and made myself feel good about getting a 4:03 or 4:00/km pace on the chart…with a much lower heart rate.
Dk yeah I wear mittens for sure. Actually the best pair I NOW have were a gift from keen. He ordered a pair, didn’t like them, and I asked to try them before the return window closed. He told me to keep them after I said they’re working better than what I had (a pair suggested years ago from JMac) and I can say they worked last night doing Marathon pace work in the dark with a breeze and a “feels like 23F” outside.
Mmerkle man…I think you could have gone under 1 hour if not for the hill.
Steve sucks for your coach and stand up guy for self reporting his short course. There WAS a race here with multiple out and back segment. The run already sucked, and a friend who was also near the front and didn’t study the course said he wasn’t the only one who missed it. Part of him blamed the volunteers/course markings and part was accepting responsibility for not knowing the course having run it at least once before. I hope you enjoyed the down week. I did for mine.
Krash I LOVE seeing your runs on Strava. I’d totally try to meet up for a 5am run if I was in the area. Your track run was kind of nuts and yet I have this belief I’d totally sit in the stands and watch you run a multi-hour even there. I think One Day in Auburn rotates direction every 4 hours too. I’m too scared to do a timed run on a track.
Dave you did WHAT at the end of a long run? SHEESH! Sounds like this partner and group are going to make you faster and push harder. Not the worst thing in the world. I had a similar group I’d done a few long runs with and it was a “my workout is your warm up” type of run for me. I’m not KIND of at that point with a few folks I run with but really don’t push it.
Wcrunner SIX DAYS?!?!?!?!? Man…I’d be interested to get some seriously detailed reports about what you’re doing for running, eating, sleeping, and mental strength during THAT kind of an event.
I took LAST week off. Weather canceled my workouts, and I did dad things instead. After both workouts were gone I just scrapped the entire week. It was nice to have an unschedule rest WEEK. Just a reminder of things outside of running I kind of enjoy and wanted to get done. By Saturday or Sunday I was okay, and I reminded myself for CIM I'd lost an entire MONTH due to hazardous air.
THIS week I did LAST week's workout (6x1 mile at 6:30ish pace) and just went for it even with ice/wind/weather existing. My focus was "go out and try, run hard, the point is anerobic NOT pace) and actually with a 20 mph tailwind I had to put serious effort into NOT running too hard/fast. Maybe I'll get luck and have a 20 mph tailwind at Boston this year. Probably not. I was also remembering darkwave talking about 2018 when people were so scared of the weather and "I was on a treadmill." because literally everyone I follow on Strava was on a treadmill for the week. Maybe there will be another virtual option for Boston 2023. I'm getting LOTS of time testing gear and weather conditions for race day, and the mental game is getting a lot stronger. I know I can't run a 6:40/mi pace into a 20 mph headwind by myself, but I think I could sub-3 in it with a pack.
Last night...just ran out of gas and got cold on top of thinking "my wife was up and slept maybe 4 hours because the kid vomited so maybe I should get home to help out." I WANTED a 9 M workout, schedule says 8, and I PROBABLY could have done it to boost my ego. I opted to jog it home which was smarter. I was cold, half of the sidewalks were still covered in ice, the bike lane was filled with ice, and I was running on the wite stripe INTO traffic with a very visible safety vest on, and cars really didn't budge. Even when the lane to their left was open. A few moved over. At least my workout was done so if I was hit by a car I couldn't blame it for ruining my workout.
oh , and work was closed for Monday and Tuesday due to weather. I don't have work from home setup so I did running and jeep things. Specifically, I worked on installing a new ring and pinion on the front axle of my jeep. Pretty detailed work to help me mentally unwind, and VERY time consuming. I think it's like $600 to pay someone to do this. I spent 2 days doing it, and I need to physically install the gears now that I'm done mocking everything up for a few days.