Forums >Racing>Sub 1:30 Half Marathon in 2020
RIP Milkman
Brew - I have no idea what workout you just concocted from JD. That doesn't sound like him, but maybe you can show me a page number? 400 meters is too short for interval (or "I" pace) work. He generally views I pace work as something that would take you anywhere from 3-4 minutes to complete. It's generally 800-1200 meters, and maybe up to 1600 for elite athletes. You then rest for approximately the amount of time it took you to run the intervals.
He does do 400m repetition work (or "R" pace), but those are what you said: more about strength/form and allow for full recovery (you jog a full 400 meters after each rep)
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Problem Child
JMac this is what I get for trying new things. So I did R work today. Fully recovered. Hanson’s calls this speed. I THOUGHT I was doing repitition because I wasn’t waiting a few minutes. This explains why it felt easy for each Repeat. In which case I did all of them two slow accordi g to the spreadsheet, which uses a race time from sea level. Might not be the best time to use HOWEVER I had to pick something more than “just go see what you can do” because I was seeing some 5:30s and 5:40s so I’d have blown up. At least I kept it under 5 miles. Does the 5 miles ONLY count the R paced work, or is the recovery jog included?
Intervals now seem like an awkward spot to live in just based on what I’ve done since 2015. I guess when you do the short Repetitions “too slow” you do them at Interval pace for the longer runs so it’s easier to know the workout only requires one pace. This now seems more complex than I originally understood. The worst part is I’ll admit I thought it was to be mostly aerobic and working on speed whereas I thought repetition pace was anaerobic and would be MUCH harder.
keen it’s early. I don’t think many people are in full race training right now over there and people are stuck inside with too much energy so they’re kind of cranky, or they’re just lurking waiting for the right time to jump in and they keep lurking. It’s early so I’m sure the pecking order will sort itself out, or the thread will die and people will create a private User Group to focus on training.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
JMac - Nice humbleBrag about your race there! Unlimited beers (googles how much it costs to fly to N'awlins). My favorite race is currently a short 10km XC race but it used to always be 7 miles. Irregular distances makes things fun.... or maybe that's the beers. Have you considered drinking a beer every mile of the course?
Brew - enjoy the repetitions! Those are my favorite workouts.
I tried running yesterday and was pain free! It was a different pair of shoes than the two pairs that caused me pain before so I'm not sure what to make of that yet but I'm going to have to control my impulse to race back into full training mode. I did 20 minutes yesterday and I'll see if I can do the same again today.
1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)
Zebano - unfortunately this is a Mardis Gras race on Long Island. Anyway, was going to comment about your top of foot issue as well: I've had that before, and definitely extensor tendonitis came to mind. I didn't have that exactly, but I know plenty of people that have. My issue was more weird things around the toes, but based on what you described, i think you may have that tendonitis. Google it and try the treatment, it usually works for most top of foot injuries.
Keen - I agree with Brew. It's the offseason right now, so people aren't fully focused on other's training. It's always like this in Dec/Jan and then again in May/June/July
Brew - I think you need to read the whole book again, you're getting lost on some concepts here. Not to criticize, but it's just the nature of training plans: you have to read the underlying material to get the most out of it.
I would say R pace should feel very fast. My first rep, I'm always in shock of how far behind I am, usually like 4-5 seconds for 400m which is crazy. Eventually you settle into the pace, and it feels lightening fast, but you get used to it due to the full rest.
Second, rep work is capped out at 5% of weekly mileage, not 5 miles. And it's the actual repetitions that are counted, not the rest. Here are the limits for each type of work, in terms of total weekly mileage. Of course, if you wanted to do threshold workouts in a week, you can. These percentages just apply for the workout
R - 5%
I - 8%
T - 10%
M - 20%
Intl. correspondent
Steve - I’ve just learned there was indeed a flight I could have taken. I’d always dismiss those flights cause it’s in the middle of the week but that was an option this time. It’d have been double the cost but worth it.
Watson - LOL I might be. I used to record myself playing the guitar and singing along and then play it back out loud. I’m terrible aren’t I ?
Brewing - Pretty much the Hansons plans from the books are very simple.
Jmac - I’m sorry that sounds like a terrible idea. If they’re giving away free beer it’s gotta taste like piss.
Brew/Jmac - 12x400 is an interval in Hansons lingo. It’s run at 5k pace and it has a 400m jog.
It’s my understanding that I pace is aerobic development while R pace is mile/3k pace workouts designed to strengthen you.
You could off course run 12x400 at mile pace but that IMHO would be insane. At least at my level of strength/ fitness.
The 12x400 is the introductory workout and it’s already challenging. From there it gets more and more difficult
As the reps get longer and longer all the way to 3x1600.
Off course super human unbreakable people such as Mark, Jmac and Keen can do more than 4800m of fast running
So they do crazy stuff like 8x1000.
me - Got a scary workout done today.
1.5T + 1E + 3T + 1E + 5T
T is tempo pace 3:51 - 3:56
For reference HMP is 3:58.
All above is in the natural units of course.
This is quite challenging as it's almost 10k of tempo in total and the intervals get longer and longer.
I'm quite happy to having nailed it after having failed the same workout at the beginning of December.
At the time besides failing the workout I also caught a cold that put me out of commission for 10 days.
I hope I survive this one unscathed.
PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021
Up next: some 800m race (or time trials) / Also place in the top 20% in a trail race
Tool to generate Strava weekly
Flavio Yeah the Hanson's way just seems to make a lot more sense. I seem to think it is only for marathons. I also don't want to be a one trick pony and fall into doing just ONE training coach's approach. Yes it works. I'm not a fan of doing something just because I'm comfortable with it and I've done it before. I'm okay with trying something new and failing. It might not result in failure and Jack Daniels is popular here so I can ask questions about it.
JMac I've been reading the Repetition and Interval section over and over and keep gravitating to the same spots. Repetition seems like it should be done on a track, or flat surface. I agree it's probably going to feel LIGHTENING fast. Interval (except for Cruise Intervals) are just 800-1200m and they're done slower than Repetition pace with a short recovery. I think every "rep" I tried to do yesterday was behind by 4-5 seconds. It might be a combination of elevation differences between race result and training, and this being the first workout. Right now I think speed work should be my focus since I have a 5K March 15 I want to break 20 in. I'm aware I SHOULD be able to do this however I haven't yet. I've also stuck to running this ONE 5k a year. I could possibly pick a flatter one later in the year. It should help with going for the sub 1:30 half. I don't think I'm capable of a 82 second 400m more than maybe once. As for 400m Repetition work in the book. Page 58. Last paragraph.
Interval 400m or less at 3K or faster pace. Full recovery. Works anaerobic and speed. Don't do these with a group unless you can run your own pace and not let faster/slower people influence your workout.
Repetition 800m-1,200 with 1-3 minute recovery. 5k pace or faster. Partial recovery because it takes time to get the heart up to VO2max and you want to keep it there. Pushes aerobic capacity.
Threshold/Tempo 20-30 minutes comfortably hard around 10K to half marathon pace. Includes Cruise intervals which are 5-6 minutes with 1 minute recovery. work:recover is 5:1. Pushes lactate threshold so we're able to run faster at the same threshold, or running at the same pace produces less lactate/our body utilizes it more.
As for criticism....I can take it. I am very blunt in real life. Not always so happy and profane with lots of energy. Criticize away. I'd rather not go through learning pains just to go through learning pains if I can avoid them.
Page 58 is in the Interval section, not the Repetition section (which starts on page 62, assuming you're using the physical copy and not some Kindle version).
Repetition work is exactly the opposite: it is not supposed to be for aerobic capacity. He even explicitly states this as the first sentence in Repetition Training: "The primary purpose of R (repetition) training is to improve anaerobic power, speed, and economy of running."
Rep (R) paced work should start at 200 meter repeats, with 200 meter recoveries (similar distance recovery as you just ran). You need at least a few of those before going to 400m repeats, which take a lot out of you. They should never be longer than 400 meters, because as Flavio said, they're near mile pace. 12x400 would be if I was in peak shape.
Interval (I) is 800-1200 meter repeats at 3-5K pace, with similar time recovery as you just ran.
Also, if you can't break 20 minutes in a 5K after breaking 3 in a marathon, you are banned from this thread.
Flavio - that is an absurd workout that even as a Daniels fanboy who loves punishing himself I would never attempt. Well done.
Oh wait, that's in KM. Okay nm you're fine...
Cobra Commander Keen
Brew - As DWave has mentioned a few times in the marathon thread, it's better to do them a bit too slow than too fast. 5 miles of R work (recoveries never count) would be a massive amount to me. Anything beyond 3 miles of work and I'd absolutely be walking the recoveries (which is fair game). You've got your Intervals and Reps switched in that last post. Reps are quite fast (mile pace/effort), but aren't that hard because of the recoveries. Intervals are slower (5k pace, maybe a tad faster), but last longer (usually 3-4 minutes as JMac said). The equal time recovery will never be "complete" recovery - keeping your HR elevated somewhat is what helps you get more time at VO2Max, which is the goal.
I'll certainly say the Daniels stuff is particularly confusing at the start, but once you've done the specific workouts a few times it clears up as the nature of what they are becomes more real.
Don't worry about being behind on the Reps for now. Altitude will be playing a role, as is this being your first workout in a while. Plus, it takes a bit to get the pacing for those down.
If you can do Reps on a track, do it. If not, try measuring out a flat stretch of road/sidewalk. Failing that, programming GPS distances will be good enough.
I'd recommend doing Intervals and Tempo work based on time, not distance. That will make it much easier to get the recoveries correct, which is a big thing.
M-effort I'd be fine doing by miles.
Zebano - Awesome that your run was without pain! Is is a different brand/model of shoe, or just a different pair of the same?
Flavio - I saw that workout, that's a tough one. Having the longer work portions getting longer certainly makes it more difficult. If I'm doing 8x 1k it's certainly not at anything near 5k effort - certainly easier than 10k effort!
5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22
Upcoming Races:
OKC Memorial 5k - April 27
Bun Run 5k - May 4
JMac I'm just going to throw this book in the trash and use my yellow book with less paces to deal with. I swear my brain is understanding it and explaining it wrong. It can't be though because I'd be able to explain it if I understood it. So next R paced work I need to go BOTT and do it on a flat spot in the road and get fully recovered. 41 seconds for the 200m is pushing my 1 mile PR speed.
You'd be surprised at what I can do. I could go out at 5:45/mi pace and blow up for a 20:09. PR and still not breaking 20.
Keen The marathon thread talks about training? I thought they just talked trash on each other and everyone else not running marathons on the road. Oh and the occasional review of a race and how someone ran their race wrong. I might need to mark the flat part of the road with the smallest shoulder (read DIRT) on the entire section. Either that or I switch R paced work to Saturdays and do it on a track the day before a long run. I was just thinking about doing tempo/threshold based work on Saturdays just because I can do it like I did my M paced workouts last year. I could even potentially do it on the HM race course, or next to it if they're using the actual road. Why is 5K and Half Marathon training so much harder than marathon training? y'all make it sound so simple.
I've also stuck to running this ONE 5k a year.
Don't forget that racing is a skill and the pain of a 5k is a bit more intense than the slow burn of longer races. You would probably benefit by scheduling 3-4 of them over a 6 - 8 week span. Don't taper for the first 2 or 3, just use them as a workout and a chance to hone your ability to suffer.
P.S. You're overthinking things and have Intervals and Reps confused again. Just look stuff up in the chart, go run it, repeat =)
R = Repetitions. Mile paced stuff. Great for stride efficiency. 400m or shorter, usually equal distance recovery jogs
I = Intervals = VO2Max work. 3k-5k pace, when a training block goes perfectly, it becomes goal 5k pace for me. 800-1200m with shorter recoveries so it doesn't take as long to get back to the right zone with each interval.
T = threshold/tempo, you go t that.
M = marathon pace
E = easy.
Flavio, it took me a minute to realize that was metric units.. I was aghast at the amount of T work you did. A very good workout.instead of insane when read in KMs.
Keen - totally different pair, but I had had the pain in two different pairs before so... (shrug). Lacing is certainly something to watch but the other shoes I ran in were very different (Merrill Trail Glove and Altra Escalante v1s) versus my NB 1500s which had no issues.
Hot Weather Complainer
I'm not sure what sort of authority you think you have around here
5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:34:49 6/23
2024 Races:
Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55
Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024 1:27:34
Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024
Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024
I disappear for a few days and come back to discover a showdown between the current and former thread dictators... damn what else have I missed?!?!
Front loaded the mileage Mon/Tues but have been able to get a couple runs in here so far. Lots of hills (obviously) and much harder work on the snow even on gritted roads. Good fun though and had a race with a snow-clearing grader up a short hill this morning (I won).
Flavio - GREAT job on that workout. Very promising!
3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)
10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)
* Net downhill course
Last race: Waterfront HM, 7 Apr, 1:15:48
Up next: Runway5, 4 May
"CONSISTENCY IS KING"
I disappear for a few days and come back to discover a showdown between the current and former thread dictators... damn what else have I missed?!?! Front loaded the mileage Mon/Tues but have been able to get a couple runs in here so far. Lots of hills (obviously) and much harder work on the snow even on gritted roads. Good fun though and had a race with a snow-clearing grader up a short hill this morning (I won).
Much insolence and a potential American takeover. You'll need to catch up on the thread and consider loyalties. If we're short of numbers I'll have to get Nathan Jones (all of them) to join the thread.
Running where you are sounds like a great refresher - always good to mix it up.
Flavio - That's a brutal work out, nice one.
Brewing - where did you find that 12x400 R paced workout?
Are you using the 5k plans from the Daniels book? I’d start with that.
If you don’t break 20 minutes in a 5K you’ll have to dress in a Gaga costume. That’s in the thread rules.
Jmac/Zebano - read my workout as 1 mile T - recovery - 2 mile T - recovery - 3 mile T.
That’s where it came from for sure.
Mark - you missed Keen and Brew blessing each other hearts.
Thanks, that was indeed a promising workout, if I survive this one I’ll be headed with great confidence into a likely 10K tempo that is lying just around the corner.
Steve - I got you, don't worry. If they insist on this silly takeover attempt we'll summon Piwi Kiwi. No one can defend!
zebano I read your listing as Rhyme Time. I'm not surprised I'm mixing up what the point of stupid fast and just fast enough to not feel good is. I'm sure when I'm out there hitting anaerobic pace I'll know what it is. I can't really get a few 5ks in just because I don't want to drive all over to race, I'm more focused on the half, and yeah the 5ks are no joke painful and I think I dread it vs the slow agonizing death of a half or full marathon. The fall of blowing up a marathon is much more epic than only being a few miles from the start with the ability to jog it in.
SteveChCh I'm in agreement. Jmac needs to understand he lost control and needs to quit living in the past. He clearly can't see it is 2020. What kind of establishment are you running around here letting people try and usurp authority.
Flavio I didn't. Apparently I made it up when I looked at the back of the book under Half Marathon training (I think week 9) and saw 400m/400 rest and assumed it was repetition. I'm not the smartest Crayola in the shed. I just know 12x400 is a Hanson workout, JD seemed to agree with doing it for a half marathon and I saw a pace of 1:29/400m so I just went out and did 400m runs with a full recovery. No idea what they accomplished other than me doing something different from easy running. I guess the purpose of the run was to mentally break away from easy running and get speed work in. At this point I kind of feel like I just started speed work with no clue what I was doing. I have no track or running background other than I picked running as a hobby to get into shape and I kind of became good at it over time.
simplified run today. Run 100% by feel and nothing bothered me or ever felt too fast. Never even looked at the watch. Either yesterdays "whatever you call it" run wasn't as hard as it could have been, or I'm kind of still in shape from marathons.