Sub 1:30 Half Marathon in 2019 (Read 588 times)

SteveChCh


Hot Weather Complainer

    JMac - it's interested that 1 minute faster over 90 can lead to such blow ups in the second 90.  It would be very interesting if there was some way of measuring what the trade off is although it's obviously going to be different for every person, or every race.  I definitely find if I negative split, I can start going 10-15 seconds faster than my overall average towards the end of a race, at best.  If I positive split and blow up the time you "lose" starts increasing at a seemingly uncontrollable rate.

     

    Anyway, completely agree, go get your sub 3 CK, it's clearly within your grasp.

    PB:  Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

    Recent Races:  South Island Half-Marathon 2018 1:32.39 Auckland Waterfront Half-Marathon 2019 1:30.49

    Next Race:  South Island Half-Marathon, August 4, 2019

    Marky_Mark_17


      Re pacing: I do think there's something to be said for trial and error and figuring out what will work best for you.  JMac, you have generally been a negative split guy in marathons but your PR in Boston was a positive split.  I always used to go out too hot in half marathons but now I'm very much an even-split runner.  Aiming for the negative split is definitely a safer option, particularly in a marathon, but sometimes you can go out just a bit hot and actually hold on (like me in the Dunedin HM).

       

      Having said that, the marathon does really punish you like no other for getting it wrong (like I did in 2017).

       

      Keen - as best I can see, this is the only big 10,000m event on the NZ running calendar.  There's really only one major 5,000m event too.  This actually works kind of well, because it's much easier to build critical mass for an event when there's not a lot of other options if you want to run the distance.  To be honest this race has probably got close to the deepest elite field in the entire country of any event (excluding National Road Relays).

      5,000m: 16:03 (Dec-18) | 10,000m: 32:58 (Nov-19) | 10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) 

      HM: 1:12:49 (Sep-19) | FM: 2:57:36 (Oct-17)

      Last race: The Agency Group 10,000m, 9 Nov, 32:58

      Up next: Kerikeri Half Marathon, 23 Nov

      "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

      watsonc123


        Keen - awesome race.

         

        Nice weeks especially Paul, JMac and Mark.

         

        Last week was rubbish from me.  This week will not be great either.  Work has been really busy, building garden beds, and some other commitments have made my training suck.  I should get an ok finish to this week, plus next week should be ok.  I certainly won't be PRing my half on 24 November.

        PRs: 5km 18:43 (Dec 2015), 10km 40:28 (Aug 2019), half 1:26:16 (Sep 2016), full 3:09:28 (Jun 2015)

         

        40+ PRs: 5km 20:34 (Jan 2019), 10km 40:28 (Aug 2019), half 1:29:39 (Jun 2018)

         

        2019 aims: Unlike 2017 & 2018, be consistent.  So get 40+ weeks of 40+ miles incl. two quality sessions (5 weeks achieved so far).

          Keen a 1.24 half puts you in the ballpark for sub 3 if everything goes well on the day ie weather, course profile, execution.

          My first marathon I ran 1.27 and 1.32 not ideal and pretty tight but I made it. I was running 1.22 halfs in the lead up.

          You have better mileage though which bodes well for holding pace.

          50+ PBs5k 18:29 Tauranga Parkrun May18   

          10k 38.55 oct 19 strava run

          " If you don't use it you lose it but if you use it, it wears out.

          Somewhere in between is about right "      

           

          CommanderKeen


          Aspiring Hobby Jogger

            JMac - Good point - I didn't express what I was actually looking for very well. I'm planning on aiming for just under 3 hours and wanting to negative split - I certainly don't want to get too aggressive and doom myself in the opening miles. Mostly what I'm looking for is an idea of how much of a "buffer" I might have - running 2:59:45 with a best race potential of 2:57 is much different ("easier" if that's the right term) than if my potential is 2:59:30. Kind of a "how much room for error is there" question.

            Unfortunately there aren't marathon pacers for faster than 3:20, but I can stick with the 1:30 HM pacers until the courses split at about mile 9. Hopefully there will be some marathoners to run with at that point, though I don't have an issue with going it alone if I have to.


            Steve - I can't remember where I saw it, but I've heard that for every second over "ideal" time in the first half of a marathon it'll cost you at least two seconds on the back half. Not that I want to ever be a test case for that myself...

            5k: 18:25 10/19 (solo track TT) │ 10k: 38:56 4/18 │ HM: 1:24:16 11/19 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

             

            Upcoming Races:

            Dallas Marathon 12/15

            kimba


              The pacing estimates and the "art and science" of pacing in general, and especially for marathons, are fascinating.  It never ceases to amaze me how much you can mess up a work-out by being as little as a second off per 400m.  The faster pace increases the pain exponentially.  I can only imagine how such errors compound in a marathon.  Ouch!  Looking forward to seeing how Keen fares.

               

              I did a track work-out (indoors) today for the first time in a long time.  Right now I'm not really concerned about the details of the work-outs as I am mostly interested in making sure I'm healthy enough for the intensity.  However, once I start working towards a specific race I start to assess/question whether or not the work-out is targeting the correct systems for my current fitness/racing goals.  The reason for this is that I run with a club and work-outs are built for the masses rather than individualized, thus sometimes I worry that my specific training goals might not be met.  I don't have a specific question right now, just thinking aloud in a group who might know what I'm talking about.

               

              Happy running everyone!

              800m:  2:20.3 (2015) | 1 Mile:  5:13 (2016) | 5K: 18:32 (2010) | 10km: 39:55 (2012) HM: 1:28 (2013) 

               

              JMac11


              Benevolent Leader

                keen - I'd caution you on starting with those pacers in a marathon for 2 reasons:

                 

                1) Pacers often go out too hot and have to recalibrate

                2) If there's ever a race you want to start the first mile slowly, it's the marathon. Your first mile should be 10-15 seconds off of pace. Anywhere near pace is way too fast.

                 

                Your goal for a sub 3 hour marathon is to run mile 1 at 7:00-7:10, mile 2 6:50-6:55, and then every single mile after that in the first half 6:45-6:50. I've discovered that the best time to do a check-in on how you're feeling is mile 18. At that point, you should have worked through one rough patch already. You should be feeling tired, but not "uh oh, how am I keeping this up for another 8 miles." If you're still checking those boxes, at that point, you let your pace creep down in the 6:40-6:45 range and then go with the flow from there.

                 

                At absolutely no point do you want to be sub 6:45 in the first half. If that happens, you need to re calibrate and slow down.

                 

                I've always felt that miles 3-8 feel like I'm easy pace, and I'm not exaggerating. It feels like I'm doing absolutely no work at all. This is why newer runners to the marathon blow up because they don't know what MP feels like when you're fully tapered.

                 

                Assuming you run this perfectly, you should come through the half right around 1:29. The slow end of this would be a hair under 1:30, which is just as good.

                 

                Just to address Mark's point on pacing a marathon: Yes, I did positive split Boston, but that was weather related: the start of the race was 60 with clouds, but the end was 70 with full sunshine. I just started absolutely cooking on the course, which most people did. It was a day where you could not negative split unless you absolutely sand bagged the first half. Additionally, the course is aligned to positive split with the Newton hills starting at mile 16. I left a lot on the table in that race due to the weather and the hills, as I was feeling spectacular at the 18 mile point (and said so as I passed finbad over in sub 3), and then blew up so badly that I legit thought about quitting running for good because it was the darkest pain cave I've ever been in with no close second.

                 

                Second, a marathon is very different than a half. For a half marathon, you can go out and try to hold on for dear life. You can go out slowly and try to speed up. These methods both work. You absolutely cannot go out in a marathon at a faster pace and try to hold on. You will blow up, and it will be spectacular. The marathon requires precision pacing in the first half to execute well. Some folks may need a few miles to warm up, while some only need half a mile. But you cannot be more than a few seconds ahead of your goal pace in that first half.

                5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                 

                Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)

                Marky_Mark_17


                  Just to address Mark's point on pacing a marathon: Yes, I did positive split Boston, but that was weather related: the start of the race was 60 with clouds, but the end was 70 with full sunshine. I just started absolutely cooking on the course, which most people did. It was a day where you could not negative split unless you absolutely sand bagged the first half. Additionally, the course is aligned to positive split with the Newton hills starting at mile 16. I left a lot on the table in that race due to the weather and the hills, as I was feeling spectacular at the 18 mile point (and said so as I passed finbad over in sub 3), and then blew up so badly that I legit thought about quitting running for good because it was the darkest pain cave I've ever been in with no close second.

                   

                   

                  Fair comment, I'd forgotten about the weather (clearly I wasn't there!).

                   

                  I totally agree with you about not trusting pacers as well.  I've heard SO many stories of pacers screwing it up.  Unless it's someone you actually know and trust as a pacer, be wary.

                  5,000m: 16:03 (Dec-18) | 10,000m: 32:58 (Nov-19) | 10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) 

                  HM: 1:12:49 (Sep-19) | FM: 2:57:36 (Oct-17)

                  Last race: The Agency Group 10,000m, 9 Nov, 32:58

                  Up next: Kerikeri Half Marathon, 23 Nov

                  "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                  Nimmals


                    Remember the 10/5 second Rules

                    10 seconds faster means die (hit the wall) about 10 miles out like around 14-16 miles. Some exceptions here to but very small.

                    5 seconds faster means you'll die (hit the wall) about miles 20-21. More people have made the exception on a perfect weather, awesome course. This is an old school rule. Only us old farts pays it any attention.

                    SteveChCh


                    Hot Weather Complainer

                      Unfortunately there aren't marathon pacers for faster than 3:20, but I can stick with the 1:30 HM pacers until the courses split at about mile 9. Hopefully there will be some marathoners to run with at that point, though I don't have an issue with going it alone if I have to.

                       

                      I listened to a great Running Rogue podcast discussing pacers and why you should NEVER use them...some interesting points.  I've had races when I haven't followed them when they seem to be going too fast for my plan and I imagine running nerds like us would never mindlessly follow a pacer Smile But they did make some good points about putting your goal (and months of training) in someone else's hands.

                      PB:  Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

                      Recent Races:  South Island Half-Marathon 2018 1:32.39 Auckland Waterfront Half-Marathon 2019 1:30.49

                      Next Race:  South Island Half-Marathon, August 4, 2019

                      Marky_Mark_17


                         

                        I listened to a great Running Rogue podcast discussing pacers and why you should NEVER use them...some interesting points.  I've had races when I haven't followed them when they seem to be going too fast for my plan and I imagine running nerds like us would never mindlessly follow a pacer Smile But they did make some good points about putting your goal (and months of training) in someone else's hands.

                         

                        Maybe I need to re-evaluate whether I want to tag on to the 33-pacer for the 10,000m race on Saturday!! Having said that, it's a helluva lot easier to do on the track for 10km than for 21km or 42km on the road.

                         

                        BTW Steve, I'm in Christchurch on Monday, but I don't think I'll have time for a catch-up.  Land 7:30pm Sunday night, then have an all day strategy session with a client on Monday before flying out 6pm Monday night.

                        5,000m: 16:03 (Dec-18) | 10,000m: 32:58 (Nov-19) | 10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) 

                        HM: 1:12:49 (Sep-19) | FM: 2:57:36 (Oct-17)

                        Last race: The Agency Group 10,000m, 9 Nov, 32:58

                        Up next: Kerikeri Half Marathon, 23 Nov

                        "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                        SteveChCh


                        Hot Weather Complainer

                          Yeah, I think in a 10,000 it would be fine - if you can't keep up, so be it!

                           

                          I'm working in the CBD on Tuam so if by some miracle you do get out for a coffee just give me a text.

                          PB:  Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

                          Recent Races:  South Island Half-Marathon 2018 1:32.39 Auckland Waterfront Half-Marathon 2019 1:30.49

                          Next Race:  South Island Half-Marathon, August 4, 2019

                          CommanderKeen


                          Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                            I have no issues whatsoever in letting a pace group go if they're going out too hot - case in point: DRC Half last Sunday.

                            It would make it a bit easier to run in a pack vs alone which is why I'm thinking of starting near them - I would ditch a group (or let them drop me) at any point I don't think it's beneficial to me to be with them.


                            JMac - Those early miles feel the same for me, and that certainly is dangerous. I'll definitely be looking out for that.


                            Slammin' - Thanks for you input as well! What're you doing here slumming it with us slow folks?

                            5k: 18:25 10/19 (solo track TT) │ 10k: 38:56 4/18 │ HM: 1:24:16 11/19 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                             

                            Upcoming Races:

                            Dallas Marathon 12/15

                            watsonc123


                              When you have good pacers, it can help.  I've had some really good pacers in a couple of races.  A couple too slow (they were going more GPS pace than actual markings), a few too quick.

                               

                              The worst ones for too quick was Sydney 2015.  My plan was to run the first half (of the half) with the 1:30 pacers, then speed up for 1:28:59.  Well they started the first 5km at 1:26 pace, and pretty much boasted about how far ahead of schedule they were!  We then started slowing, at the mid point I left them (I was slowing less than they were) and I faded moderately for 1:28:1x.  They did come in very close to 1:30, but not surprisingly there were no racers with them.

                              PRs: 5km 18:43 (Dec 2015), 10km 40:28 (Aug 2019), half 1:26:16 (Sep 2016), full 3:09:28 (Jun 2015)

                               

                              40+ PRs: 5km 20:34 (Jan 2019), 10km 40:28 (Aug 2019), half 1:29:39 (Jun 2018)

                               

                              2019 aims: Unlike 2017 & 2018, be consistent.  So get 40+ weeks of 40+ miles incl. two quality sessions (5 weeks achieved so far).

                                Watson yes that's pretty crappy pacing from them. I've never used an official pacer. I met the sub 3 pacer at the start of Auckland 2013 and he advised me he was pulling out a halfway due to an injury so I just did my own thing.

                                 

                                Mark I'd imagine in a 10000m race the pacer would be a bit more professional coming from a track background and able to keep tabs of pace better as its lap by lap.

                                50+ PBs5k 18:29 Tauranga Parkrun May18   

                                10k 38.55 oct 19 strava run

                                " If you don't use it you lose it but if you use it, it wears out.

                                Somewhere in between is about right "