2024 The Waltons: Racing & Training Thread (Read 147 times)

mmerkle


    I'm confused, does the Norwegian method not include ANY VO2 max intervals? At all? As much as I hate them, I'd have a hard time not including VO2 max intervals in a training cycle. There's plenty of evidence that they improve performance.

     

    Half Crazy K That's really funnny, thanks for sharing that.

     

    piwi I think some light to moderate tempo work is ok during base. Especially if it felt good.

     

    Mark Do you really maintain a ~ 200 spm cadence during tempo work? That's interesting.

    mt79


      Top couple pages of this article breaks out the zones:

      Simplified speaking, it starts with separating 3 training zones. We’ll dive deeper into these training zones when talking about intensity control.

      • Zone 1: Low intensity - Lots of this
      • Zone 2: (Sub) threshold - Some of this and this is the meat of the work
      • Zone 3: Above threshold - VO2max zone - Not so much of this

      This article has the history of the double threshold training that they do the Norwegians have adopted

      The system Bakken developed in the 1990s and 2000s — what has now come to be known as the “Norwegian model” — had a few basic principles.

      • Two double threshold days per week (usually Tuesdays and Thursdays).
      • Workouts are “broken” into intervals with short rest instead of a continuous tempo run in order to maximize volume at a faster pace without exceeding threshold. A typical day might consist of 5 x 2k with one minute rest in the morning and 10 x 1k with one minute rest in the afternoon. (See a sample week here, taken from Swedish athlete Kalle Berglund).
      • The amount of rest between sessions is not overly important as long as the athlete is sufficiently recovered.
      • The second session of the day features shorter reps run closer to threshold pace.

      The idea is that by keeping your intensity a little sub-threshold it allows a substantial volume increase and the athlete can still recover week after week.  I saw an interview with one of the brothers and they were talking about doing more V02 at peak race time.

        Mark good work. You are in a good place for January. Fast running is fun especially if it's not too hard 

         

         

        Merkle I think the idea is to get vo2 max in by jumping into lots of races. I can easily do that with my local parkrun.

         

        MT thanks for that info.

        55+ PBs 5k 18:36 June 3rd TT

        " If you don't use it you lose it,  but if you use it, it wears out.

        Somewhere in between is about right "      

         

        Marky_Mark_17


          mmerkle - yeah my tempo work and races are ~200spm.  I'm just naturally high cadence and even my easier runs tend to be around 190spm.  It seems to have picked up over time because my easier runs used to be more like 180spm.

          3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

          10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

          * Net downhill course

          Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!

          Up next: Still working on that...

          "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

          JoshWolf


          Part of TLC

            Old age shortens your stride so you have to compensate by upping your cadence . Sorry, couldn't resist.

            Don't hurry - next AG will start 2026

            Marky_Mark_17


              Old age shortens your stride so you have to compensate by upping your cadence . Sorry, couldn't resist.

               

              IDK maybe my legs are getting shorter haha.

              3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

              10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

              * Net downhill course

              Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!

              Up next: Still working on that...

              "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

              JamesD


              JamesD

                This was a strange week, but at least I kept fitness even if I didn’t gain any.  I started out running for the fourth day in a row (rare for me) and doing some very slow strides in the hope of building towards tempo runs.  After pool running Monday, my right knee, my less bad one, was swollen on Tuesday.  I stayed on the treadmill for the next three days.  I “tripled” two of those days, with phone calls that I needed to respond to interrupting my stints.  Knee was better by the end of the week, but I stopped today’s pool run a little early after a bad right calf cramp.  I assume part of the reason for the cramp was my not having eaten bananas in the last few days when I usually have one every morning..

                 

                Darkwave, if I continue my pool running, should I expect it to eventually strengthen my quads and hamstrings noticeably?  I'm doing it about 6 or so times a month (nearly all of my non-running days) at 60-90 minutes a time, taking about 100 “steps” per minute and keeping my heart rate around 100 bpm.  I assume there’s a modest aerobic benefit to going that long, I just wonder about the muscular benefit.  I've only been doing it for about five weeks, but should I expect improvement after 3 months, or would it take more like a year?  Or would I ever notice improvement, since I'm not going that intensely?

                 

                Sun - 7 miles in park PM including strides, 4th day in a row

                Mon - 80 minutes pool running

                Tues - off, right (?!) knee swelling

                Weds - 7.5 miles very slow TM (54:25 AM/36 PM) + 0:40 walk breaks/6 mins

                Thurs - 7.5 miles very slow TM (36:25 AM/54 PM) + 0:40 walk breaks/6 mins

                Fri - 8 miles very slow TM (30:30 AM/19 PM/47 PM) + 0:40 walk breaks/6 mins

                Sat - 74 minutes pool running, stopped b/c R calf cramp

                 

                Total - 30 miles

                YTD average - 38.4 mpw



                Post-1987 PRs:  Half 1:30:14 (2019); 10K 39:35 (2019); 5K 19:12 (2017); Mile 5:37.3 (2020)

                '24 Goals: consistency, age-graded PRs, half < 1:32

                watsonc123


                  James - good luck on the knee.

                   

                  Mark & Piwi - nice weeks.

                   

                  I'm also a high cadence runner.

                   

                  In addition to mt's statements - the Norwegian singles approach is pretty much a cut down version.  The Norwegian singles approach has the option of an 'x' workout once a week, which instead could be a race.  Personally I've never found I gained much from the traditional VO2 max workouts, they just drained  me.

                   

                  My week was good.  Two strength sessions, three moderate workouts, one long run, and zero VO2 max.  Wed was a struggle to get in the run, rather significant train outage getting home so had to do that quite late.

                   

                  Weekly for period: From: 08/01/2024 To 14/01/2024

                  <caption>Weekly Grid</caption>
                  Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                  in m
                  08/01 Afternoon Run - 2 * (12:00 @30k Pace & 1:00 Walk) 6.50 10.46 00:55:02 08:28 05:16 43
                  09/01 Afternoon Run 4.29 6.90 00:40:11 09:22 05:49 9
                  10/01 Night Run - 2 * (12:00 @30k Pace & 1:00 Walk) 6.49 10.43 00:55:01 08:29 05:16 42
                  11/01 Evening Run 4.31 6.94 00:40:12 09:20 05:48 18
                  12/01 Afternoon Run - 6 * (4:00 @15K Pace & 1:00 Walk) 7.05 11.35 01:00:01 08:31 05:17 31
                  13/01 Morning Run 13.06 21.01 02:00:16 09:13 05:43 59
                  14/01 Afternoon Run 4.33 6.96 00:40:09 09:16 05:46 17

                  Totals: Time: 06:50:52 - 🦅Imperial: 46.02 mi - Metric: 74.05 km

                  PRs: 5km 18:43 (Dec 2015), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:26:16 (Sep 2016), full 3:09:28 (Jun 2015)

                   

                  40+ PRs: 5km 19:31 (Oct 2020), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:29:39 (Jun 2018), full 3:13:55 (Sep 2022)

                   

                  2023 PRs (hope to beat in 2024): 5km 20:34, 10km 41:37, half 1:32:32, full 3:21:05

                   

                  2024 PRs: 5km 20:25

                    Watson good work, solid week. You have inspired me to start this Norwegian Singles type training. I have also found vo2 max to totally smash me.

                     

                    James good strategy for the knee to use the treadmill.

                     

                    Mark your cadence works for you so that's all that matters.

                    I hit 190 during 5k pace which is around your easy pace anyway 

                    55+ PBs 5k 18:36 June 3rd TT

                    " If you don't use it you lose it,  but if you use it, it wears out.

                    Somewhere in between is about right "      

                     

                    Fredford66


                    Waltons ThreadLord

                      Upcoming

                      01/20 Frederick - Winter Trail Series Race #4 (10k)

                      01/20 MarkyMark - The Goat

                      01/20 watsonc123 - Trentham ParkRun

                      5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 38:55 (11/23); 10k 49:24 (10/22); 
                      10M 1:29:33 (2/24); Half 1:48:32 (10/22); Marathon 4:29:58 (11/23)

                      Upcoming races: Greta's Run 5k, 5/19; Scotch Plains 5k, 6/12

                       

                      zebano


                        I'm confused, does the Norwegian method not include ANY VO2 max intervals? At all? As much as I hate them, I'd have a hard time not including VO2 max intervals in a training cycle. There's plenty of evidence that they improve performance.

                         

                        Half Crazy K That's really funnny, thanks for sharing that.

                         

                        piwi I think some light to moderate tempo work is ok during base. Especially if it felt good.

                         

                        Mark Do you really maintain a ~ 200 spm cadence during tempo work? That's interesting.

                         

                        There's also evidence that things like short 10 second all out hill sprints improve vo2max. There's certainly correlation between vo2max and race times but I'm not sure I've seen a study that correlates (for instance) workouts like 4x1200 or 5xKM at 3k-5k effort with faster race times. My anecdotal experience is that much like faster anaerobic stuff for the 800/mile you get faster in the short term but peak really really quickly (how quickly seems to be very individual). I think one of the things the Norwegian style gets right is it prioritizes long term growth over short term growth. I'm also giving it a try FWIW. Sorry I haven't even been lurking on here so I have no idea what's been discussed but that letsrun thread is a goldmine.

                        1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

                        Fredford66


                        Waltons ThreadLord

                          Watson - Nice week.  I give you credit for getting the run in at night.

                           

                          Josh - I've read in multiple places that stride gets shorter with age, and I know as I tire I shorten my stride and up my cadence to maintain pace, but I've, oddly, found my cadence has gone down over the past five years.  Not a lot but enough to notice.

                           

                          Mark - Good job for the week.  With the trail run coming and then the half, is that likely your biggest week for a little while?

                           

                          Piwi - Sometimes one has to do the speed stuff just to keep things interesting.  Base building, while important, can seem dull at times.

                           

                          I've been trying to keep up on the various discussions on training philosophies and what not to search for on your work computer, but things have been a bit hectic for me.  I had a mixed week.  At Tuesday's track session I had to cut the last 1,200 short at 800m when I felt my calf start to pull and Thursday's HMP session had some pretty slow HM miles.  I ran in shorts and a t-shirt on Saturday when it was 55º (13C) and humid, but had to bundle up the very next day when it was 30º feeling like 20º (-1C / -7C) thanks to the wind.  On the bright side, I got over 40 miles in a week for the first time since early November with 40.6 miles / 65.3km.  My RP and I decided our HM target pace was too aggressive, coming off 6 months of marathon training, so we're going to dial it back a bit.  This is supposed to be fun, after all.

                           

                          Date Workout Type Distance Duration Pace Temp
                          1/8/2024   Easy   5.1 mi    52:58 10:30  43
                          1/9/2024  4 x 1,200m/400m Repeats   6.3 mi 1:02:23   9:53  30
                          1/11/2024  5 miles @ HMP Pace   8.2 mi 1:17:31   9:31  41
                          1/12/2024   Easy   6.0 mi 1:06:16 11:03  45
                          1/13/2024   Easy   5.0 mi    54:45 10:58  55
                          1/14/2024   Long 10.1 mi 1:39:57   9:55  30
                          5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 38:55 (11/23); 10k 49:24 (10/22); 
                          10M 1:29:33 (2/24); Half 1:48:32 (10/22); Marathon 4:29:58 (11/23)

                          Upcoming races: Greta's Run 5k, 5/19; Scotch Plains 5k, 6/12

                           

                          mt79


                            I fixed the link to the article above, sorry about that.  I randomly found this last summer, when I was trying to figure out what they meant by double threshold training that was mentioned on a few youtube broadcasts. 

                             

                            Here it is again:

                             

                            https://www.letsrun.com/news/2023/06/from-norway-to-flagstaff-how-double-threshold-training-is-taking-over-the-world/

                            SteveChCh


                            Hot Weather Complainer

                              Fred - Good job on listening to what you're body is telling you.  I've definitely been guilty of trying to push through and paying the consequences.

                               

                              Watson - Wellington trains are a nightmare when they stop working.  I spent 3 hours stranded in Pukerua once - should have just walked home.

                               

                              Mark - Another very solid week.  Are you going to taper into this race?

                               

                              piwi - Some nice pace in the week considering you're just starting at it again.

                               

                              My week - Pretty solid as I start to build the mileage.  It's started getting quite hot which has made some workouts a bit more challenging.  On Saturday I did a workout aimed at getting used to marathon pace on tired legs.  By the third rep, 30 mins of MP, the heat was effecting me and it got quite hard in the last 15 minutes or so but I did manage to hold the pace.  Up until then it has been very comfortable but the quicker block of 20 minutes sent my HR up and as I usually find in the heat, it doesn't come back down even at the slower pace.  Strava said it was 17C which is ridiculous - the weather app told me it was 27C when I finished but it felt hotter than that, with high sun and no wind.  I had 4 litres of fluid on both Saturday and Sunday and it didn't just pass through.  Had one gel on the run (meant to have 2 but forgot to take one on the first recovery) and 700ml of electrolyte + carb drink.  Given the conditions and fatigue, I'm pretty happy I could hold the pace all the way but I was getting very close to the line.

                               

                              Weekly for period: From: 08/01/2024 To 14/01/2024

                              <caption>Weekly Grid</caption>
                              Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                              in m
                              08/01 Warm up 0.35 0.56 00:03:07 08:54 05:34 0
                              08/01 Easy med long 8.96 14.42 01:15:08 08:23 05:13 26
                              09/01 Warm up 0.34 0.54 00:03:08 09:13 05:48 1
                              09/01 Shakeout 3.80 6.12 00:31:53 08:23 05:13 13
                              10/01 Warm up 0.35 0.57 00:03:14 09:14 05:40 1
                              10/01 Med long with 6 x 60 seconds pick ups to finish 10.17 16.36 01:22:46 08:08 05:04 55
                              11/01 Warm up 0.35 0.56 00:03:09 09:00 05:37 1
                              11/01 Easy hour 7.49 12.05 01:03:06 08:25 05:14 42
                              11/01 Warm up 0.35 0.56 00:03:11 09:06 05:41 3
                              11/01 Thursday Double 3.80 6.11 00:32:05 08:27 05:15 49
                              12/01 Warm up 0.34 0.55 00:03:09 09:16 05:44 0
                              12/01 Easy 50 6.49 10.44 00:54:31 08:24 05:13 22
                              13/01 Warm up 0.34 0.55 00:03:14 09:31 05:53 1
                              13/01 30 mins Zone 3, 20 mins Zone 4, 30 mins Zone 3 with 3 minute recoveries 16.29 26.22 02:03:30 07:35 04:43 37
                              14/01 Recovery 4.06 6.54 00:37:40 09:17 05:46 42

                              Totals: Time: 08:42:51 - 🦅Imperial: 63.48 mi - Metric: 102.13 km

                              5km: 18:34 11/23 â”‚ 10km: 39:10 8/23 â”‚ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 â”‚ M: 3:34:49 6/23

                               

                              2024 Races:

                              Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55

                              Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024 1:27:34

                              Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024

                              Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024

                              mmerkle


                                mt79 Thanks for the info. That makes more sense with frequent racing as part of the program.

                                 

                                zebano From what I've read, longer intervals improve VO2 max more effectively than short intervals. I stumbled upon this one the other day, where they had the participants do 3k time trials. The longer interval group improved the most. Of course both types of training are beneficial and there's always more research to be done.

                                 

                                https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/sms.14251

                                 

                                Mark Certainly nothing wrong with a 200 cadence, I just find it interesting.

                                 

                                My Week

                                 

                                <caption>Weekly Grid</caption>
                                Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                                in ft
                                01/08 Lunch Run 9.06 14.58 01:10:42 07:48 04:51 561
                                01/09 Treadmill with some hills 8.00 12.87 01:10:35 08:49 05:29 600
                                01/10 Lunch Run 6.00 9.66 00:49:56 08:19 05:10 0
                                01/10 Afternoon Row 1.86 3.00 00:13:35 07:18 04:32 0
                                01/11 Jack Daniels TLT-1 14.06 22.63 01:44:58 07:28 04:38 535
                                01/12 Re marking my territory 6.55 10.54 00:52:53 08:04 05:01 358
                                01/13 Warm Up 2.03 3.26 00:17:05 08:25 05:14 256
                                01/13 Windy Speed Work: 5 X 400 w/ 400 jog rest, 4 X 200 w/ 400 jogs 3.99 6.41 00:29:15 07:20 04:34 0
                                01/13 Cool Down 1.06 1.70 00:09:08 08:37 05:22 52
                                01/14 Lunch Run 11.06 17.80 01:24:13 07:37 04:44 732

                                Totals: Time: 08:22:20 - 🦅Imperial: 63.67 mi - Metric: 102.45 km

                                 

                                Left IT band is acting up again so I cut my long run short today. Very discouraging. Might take tomorrow off.