2024 The Waltons: Racing & Training Thread (Read 166 times)

    Steve that was a beastly workout in that heat. You probably need to go do it at 5am 

    We've had some 30c days here. I'm always amazed by the amount of runners out at 2pm in the sun 

    The Mount has a nice 5 million dollar walkway/cycle way along Marine Parade now. Great for running.  Good game last night. Pakistan have some serious talent.

     

    Zebano good to see you here. Good luck with that training.  I will keep an eye on it on strava.

     

    Fred good call on the calf. They can take weeks to heal.

     

    Merkle good miles there. As an older runner, I do find vo2 work extremely taxing on my body. I used to go out and die for the cause on a 6x1k workout  but I think those days are behind me.

    55+ PBs 5k 18:36 June 3rd TT

    " If you don't use it you lose it,  but if you use it, it wears out.

    Somewhere in between is about right "      

     

    darkwave


    Mother of Cats

      Darkwave, if I continue my pool running, should I expect it to eventually strengthen my quads and hamstrings noticeably?  I'm doing it about 6 or so times a month (nearly all of my non-running days) at 60-90 minutes a time, taking about 100 “steps” per minute and keeping my heart rate around 100 bpm.  I assume there’s a modest aerobic benefit to going that long, I just wonder about the muscular benefit.  I've only been doing it for about five weeks, but should I expect improvement after 3 months, or would it take more like a year?  Or would I ever notice improvement, since I'm not going that intensely?

       

      Honestly, I don't think it does much from hamstrings/quads.  It does work the hamstrings some, but the hip flexors are often what do the most work.  If you are pool-running without a belt, your core will do a fair amount of work as well.

       

       

       

      zebano From what I've read, longer intervals improve VO2 max more effectively than short intervals. I stumbled upon this one the other day, where they had the participants do 3k time trials. The longer interval group improved the most. Of course both types of training are beneficial and there's always more research to be done.

       

       

      Two thoughts:

       

      1) According to Jack Daniels, you can improve VO2Max with shorter intervals or longer intervals; the key is to limit the recovery time so that your heart rate is still elevated some when you start the next interval.  I suspect that one reason that longer intervals work better in practice is that if you let the recoveries get too long, you still get some work done at VO2Max with each interval.  Not the case with short intervals.

      2) The big thing for a while regarding VO2Max work was "Billat 30/30" intervals - 30 seconds at VO2Max pace and 30 seconds jog.  According to research/labs/etc - this type of workout was great for improving VO2Max.    However, I've never seen a top runner use 30/30s in their training.  This may be because there is a gap between the lab and the real world.  It may also be because VO2Max is only one of many components of fast running, and arguably not as important as things like running economy and lactate threshold.

       

      The current training trends - the Norwegian threshold stuff and Tinman training - seem to downplay VO2Max work to focus on other components - it's essentially the pendulum swinging away.  It will return.

       

      Personally, I think there is no one perfect way of training - we're all too different.  When you see a particular training structure working well for a group, there's probably some selection bias there - athletes who thrive on that type of training gravitate to and stay with that coach, while others leave.

       

      The overall trick is to figure out a) what you respond to well (which is often what you also recover easily from) and b) what you don't respond well to (and tends to run you into the ground).  Then structure your training to emphasize a) while making sure to include just enough of b). 

      Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

       

      And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

      watsonc123


        Steve - that's a good effort in that heat!  I would have faded much more in that heat.

         

        I should mention that I am modifying the Norwegian Singles approach for my marathon - so there'll end up being 4-6 hard long runs (1 already done) in the marathon build up.  The weekdays before and after will be easy, so likely to have less sub threshold work before and after the long run.

        PRs: 5km 18:43 (Dec 2015), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:26:16 (Sep 2016), full 3:09:28 (Jun 2015)

         

        40+ PRs: 5km 19:31 (Oct 2020), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:29:39 (Jun 2018), full 3:13:55 (Sep 2022)

         

        2023 PRs (hope to beat in 2024): 5km 20:34, 10km 41:37, half 1:32:32, full 3:21:05

         

        2024 PRs: 5km 20:25

        watsonc123


           

          The overall trick is to figure out a) what you respond to well (which is often what you also recover easily from) and b) what you don't respond well to (and tends to run you into the ground).  Then structure your training to emphasize a) while making sure to include just enough of b). 

           

          Which is a big reason for me.  Partially just from an enjoyment perspective, and how it impacts the rest of my week (outside just running).

          PRs: 5km 18:43 (Dec 2015), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:26:16 (Sep 2016), full 3:09:28 (Jun 2015)

           

          40+ PRs: 5km 19:31 (Oct 2020), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:29:39 (Jun 2018), full 3:13:55 (Sep 2022)

           

          2023 PRs (hope to beat in 2024): 5km 20:34, 10km 41:37, half 1:32:32, full 3:21:05

           

          2024 PRs: 5km 20:25

          Fredford66


          Waltons ThreadLord

            The overall trick is to figure out a) what you respond to well (which is often what you also recover easily from) and b) what you don't respond well to (and tends to run you into the ground).  Then structure your training to emphasize a) while making sure to include just enough of b). 

             

            I agree with this.  One of the wiser things I've read is that the best training plan is one you can stick to.

            5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 38:55 (11/23); 10k 49:24 (10/22); 
            10M 1:29:33 (2/24); Half 1:48:32 (10/22); Marathon 4:29:58 (11/23)

            Upcoming races: Scotch Plains 5k, 6/12; Firecracker 4-miler, 7/4

             

            darkwave


            Mother of Cats

              Piwi - I believe that saying we are going to do one thing in our training, and then actually doing another is nearly universal among runners. Smile

               

              Watson - I'm similar to you in that I get limited benefit from VO2Max work.  It definitely has its place for me, but I find that it wears me down and my benefits from it vanish if I do it too many weeks in a row.  Meanwhile, I can do tempo/threshold work year round happily.

               

              Fred - good call pulling up to save the calf.

               

              Me:

              34 miles running, 1 hour arc-trainer/step mill, and 4 hours pool-running.
              M: 90 minutes pool-running and streaming yoga
              T: 5 miles very easy (10:27) and weights/core.
              W: 7 miles very easy (10:14) and streaming yoga
              Th: 5 miles very easy (9:31), an arc-trainer workout of 6x4 minutes hard/72 seconds easy plus 10 minutes cooldown on stepmill and injury prevention work.
              F: 90 minutes pool-running and upper body weights/core.
              Sa: 7 miles, including four gentle hills (about 1/4 mile up a 5% incline at a very relaxed effort), followed by 20 minutes pool-running and streaming pilates.
              Su: 10 miles mostly aerobic (8:51) followed by 40 minutes pool-running and leg strengthwork.

               

              I started running again on Tuesday after taking my short break. My gait was a bit clumsy for the first day or two and then improved. The sciatica was a slight issue for the first five minutes of the first few runs, and then resolved. My hip feels MUCH more stable, and I'm generating a lot more power from that leg. My balance is also much improved on that leg (which is generally my really bad leg for balance). If skipping Houston means that I end up with a lot more power in my stride, then it will have been well worth it.

              Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

               

              And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

              darkwave


              Mother of Cats

                My races:

                02/10 Darkwave By George 5K
                03/02 Darkwave One City Half-Marathon
                03/30 Darkwave Easter Classic 10K
                04/15 Darkwave Boston Marathon
                06/22 Darkwave Garry Bjorklund (Grandmas) Half-Marathon

                Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                 

                And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                  Josh - get better!

                   

                  Re Norwegian training - I have read the first few pages at letsrun.com and have to say very interesting. There is a cyclist who claims that running training will be revolutionized similar to cycling 20 years ago through power and threshold training. And he swears by the Ingebrigtsen method but actually that's only the method adopted by the hobby jogger Ingebrigtsen. He is the slowest of the litter and has nothing to do with the 5k world recordholder. So one could ask, why bother with a cyclist and a slightly overweight Norwegian? Well for me it's simply because that fits my profile a lot more than Daniels' who designed his training plans for the average Devision I College runner who has zero body fat and never breaks/tires out. So I will give it a go. However, TLD - so I just copy Watsons sub threshold runs for the time being, without going long on weekends, because I am just too lazy Smile

                   

                  Re Pakistan - you should google Neemanaz comedy. Those are comedians and super hilarious - just released one about real estate agents predicting the 2024 housing market. Couldn't stop laughing. I guess your comment was however cricket related.

                   

                  Re all those ads - if you google pannies because that's a fish I am sure that the AI algorithm will know that. So if you get those shady websites as recommendation then that's because the algo knows what you would like to see. Very simple, the internet knows everything. Smile If you need more advise, just let me know Smile On the Heineken front for some strange reason when I happen to drink one here at home because there is nothing else, then it just tasts like the luke warm Amstel water that a lot of fish have urinated in. Don't ask me why, when I drink that in the US, because I would rather die than drink Bud light,  its actually not bad, on a hot day and with some salty snacks on the side or while bbqing. So I guess they sell the US version in New Zealand as well, probably containing a bit of Fentanyl or something to get people hooked.

                   

                  Enough nonsense. Great weeks from everybody here. It's really easy to feel like crap, just have to swing by and compare yourself to Mark, Steve, Watson, Merkle etc Smile

                   

                  My week was very balanced - almost 7 hours of activities, 4hrs running, 1hr tennis, and almost 2 hours of cycling. I only just found out that you can cancel Zwift at any time, so will be subscribing for 3 months or so and then cancel the subscription! World is full of wonders.

                   

                  Weekly for period: From: 01/08/2024 To 01/14/2024

                  <caption>Weekly Grid</caption>
                  Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                  in ft
                  01/08 Morning Ride 6.42 10.32 00:30:54 04:49 03:00 0
                  01/08 2x 200R/200J/200R/400J/400R/200J 4.99 8.03 00:41:41 08:21 05:11 161
                  01/09 Lunch Run 5.30 8.52 00:52:52 09:58 06:12 525
                  01/10 11x400@T w/30s jg 5.76 9.26 00:50:17 08:44 05:26 121
                  01/11 Morning Run 3.19 5.14 00:30:59 09:43 06:02 285
                  01/11 Afternoon Ride 8.45 13.60 00:33:24 03:57 02:27 0
                  01/11 Zwift - Emily's Short Mix in Watopia 9.97 16.05 00:28:24 02:51 01:46 177
                  01/12 Lunch Run 3.17 5.11 00:32:23 10:13 06:20 299
                  01/12 Evening Tennis 0.15 0.24 01:09:24 462:40 289:10 0
                  01/14 Morning Run 3.12 5.02 00:33:12 10:38 06:37 279

                  Totals: Time: 06:43:30 - 🦅Imperial: 35.65 mi - Metric: 57.37 km

                  HM: 1:47 (9/20) I FM: 3:53:11 (9/23)

                   

                  2024 Goals: run a FM & HM + stay healthy!

                  Half Crazy K 2.0


                    My week:

                    Monday 20 minute easy spin workout

                    Tuesday am 4.7 with strides pm core workout

                    Wednesday am 7 pm full body strength

                    Thursday resy

                    Friday 5.7 with 3 @ HM effort + 3x200 pm full body strength

                    Saturday 7.6

                    Sunday 20 minute easy spin workout + core

                     

                    I had planned on doing my longer run on Sunday, but the weeataher was "better" Saturday afternoon. By better, at least the sun was out. There were still 30 mph+ winds and it was cold.

                     

                    I don't know what paces I used, but for a HM in 2015, the bulk of quality work i did was HM pace or slower. A lot of runs were on the treadmill and mine is really old and the computer is questionable. The HM went well, it is stll my PR, but I felt like I lost any faster gears as any of the 5ks I did in the lead up were slower (to be fair, the ones in really cold weather were probably going to be slow no matter what). So maybe not quite Norwegian singles, but maybe similar? I used a Hudson plan the following spring and felt like I was in better shape but there was a gale warning during the HM. I was on pace for a 5k PR after the HM but the course had been shortened due to flooding.

                     

                    There is a chart in at least 1 edition of Daniels that shows the time spent in the v02max state during intervals. I'd have to go find it, but basically with the longer intervals (up to 5 minutes), you spend more time there. With shorter, say 2 minutes, you may be reaching that point towards the end of the interval.

                    watsonc123


                      Agnes Ngetich just blew up the women road 10km world record in Valencia in 28:46!

                       

                      In the Adidas Takumi Sen 9.

                      PRs: 5km 18:43 (Dec 2015), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:26:16 (Sep 2016), full 3:09:28 (Jun 2015)

                       

                      40+ PRs: 5km 19:31 (Oct 2020), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:29:39 (Jun 2018), full 3:13:55 (Sep 2022)

                       

                      2023 PRs (hope to beat in 2024): 5km 20:34, 10km 41:37, half 1:32:32, full 3:21:05

                       

                      2024 PRs: 5km 20:25

                      Marky_Mark_17


                        Agnes Ngetich just blew up the women road 10km world record in Valencia in 28:46!

                         

                        In the Adidas Takumi Sen 9.

                         

                        She was not far off the very recent 5k record along the way as well.

                         

                        Hate to say it, but it does make one skeptical.  That's a helluva lot to shave off a record.

                        3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                        10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                        * Net downhill course

                        Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!

                        Up next: Still working on that...

                        "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                        Marky_Mark_17


                           

                          I agree with this.  One of the wiser things I've read is that the best training plan is one you can stick to.

                           

                          Great believer in this also.

                          3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                          10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                          * Net downhill course

                          Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!

                          Up next: Still working on that...

                          "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                          SteveChCh


                          Hot Weather Complainer

                             

                            She was not far off the very recent 5k record along the way as well.

                             

                            Hate to say it, but it does make one skeptical.  That's a helluva lot to shave off a record.

                             

                            The marathon records (both men's and women's) set in the last year have me very skeptical too.  The women's probably more so given it wasn't just broken, it was obliterated.  And I was skeptical of Radcliffe all those years ago too, now it's 4 minutes faster??

                            5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:34:49 6/23

                             

                            2024 Races:

                            Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55

                            Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024 1:27:34

                            Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024 DNF

                            Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024

                              Yeah that's crazy fast. Not many men in NZ could run sub 29 on the track let alone the road. I want some Takumi Sens even if they are 2 versions older. I'm waiting for that bargain to come up....

                               

                              Mick damn you blew my cover . To me Heineken seems a step up from some of our more basic Kiwi beers that I used to drink as a teenager. Cracking open an ice cold Heiny at 5pm on a hot summer day is heaven.

                               

                              Halfcrazy solid week. Vo2max hurts  chest burning stuff.

                               

                              Steve/Mark wasn't it Ayana who ran a 5000m record on the way to a 10000m record a couple of years ago ?

                              55+ PBs 5k 18:36 June 3rd TT

                              " If you don't use it you lose it,  but if you use it, it wears out.

                              Somewhere in between is about right "      

                               

                              mt79


                                 

                                The marathon records (both men's and women's) set in the last year have me very skeptical too.  The women's probably more so given it wasn't just broken, it was obliterated.  And I was skeptical of Radcliffe all those years ago too, now it's 4 minutes faster??


                                Records are always going to be challenged.  Billions more people to produce athletes, better training and nutrition, better rest, better equipment and better medical care.  The races themselves tailoring fast courses, good season for ideal weather and start times to go along with it.  For the long races, improved hydration and fueling pre and during race.   Each wave of runners is aiming at a new record, so they are always working towards a high standard than the last generation.

                                 

                                Take all of that and it’s a gradual lowering.  Add these dramatically performance enhancing shoes, and then it’s trivial.