The Waltons aka Advanced Half Marathon Training Thread - 2022 edition (Read 390 times)

    Fred excellent on the weight loss and your 5k times are very impressive for a big guy.

     

    Flavio/Watson AWS=always surfing ?

     

    Mark El Gouerrouj was incredible. There's a bit on controversy over how clean he was.

    50+ PBs -  

    5k 18.21 Hagley Parkrun  July 21      82.27 % age grade

    10k TT 37.21 may 2nd 2021 strava run 82.51 % age grade

    Half marathon  1.23.30 may 21 80.11 % age grade

    " If you don't use it you lose it,  but if you use it, it wears out.

    Somewhere in between is about right "      

     

    SteveChCh


    Hot Weather Complainer

       

      Steve - nice job helping that girl on the PB.  Hopefully that earns you some good running karma!  Nice to be able to help someone else out like that given that you were just running it as a tempo as well.  How did it go as a MP tempo?  You obviously had enough to pick it up at the end.

       

      For most of the run I was really trying to imagine I was doing the full and how I should be feeling with that far to go.  I remember thinking at 15km that if I had 27km to go I'd probably feel like I was going a bit fast so it helped highlight what I think I'll need to do in Melbourne.  The last 4km obviously I stopped thinking like that as I picked up the pace.  It also highlighted the potential mental slog early in the marathon when it will feel like a huge mountain to climb, and it will be tempting to try and hurry things along to get past the slow burn and to the real race.

       

      Interested to hear if anyone else has had that mental battle.  It's one instance where you know the war is coming but definitely don't want to bring it on faster.

      Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

      Recent Races:   Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

      Race plan:  Melbourne Marathon October 2, 2022.  Queenstown Half Marathon November 19, 2022

      Marky_Mark_17


        Steve - I remember my first marathon was Auckland, where the half branches off in Wynyard Quarter to the finish line and the full carries on to St. Heliers and back.  At that point I remember thinking, "oh crap, I'm only halfway there, this is going to get painful".  Second one I was ticking along fine until around the 30km mark where the wind got up at which point I realised I was in for a rough last few km's.

         

        You don't tend to get that mental slog early in a marathon (or at least I haven't) because you feel amazing due to the combination of taper and race day adrenaline.  The bigger risk is going out too hot and underestimating the amount of work ahead of you.

         

        Shoes - I tried a pair of Hoka Carbon X2's this morning which I got on sale a while ago.  Kind of fun, but definitely not as good as either the Endorphin Pro's or the VF's.  They have a similar firmness to the Pro's but the feel of a high-stack Hoka shoe.  Still probably a good shoe for tempo efforts though.

         

        Piwi - it's hard not to be skeptical of many of the efforts from that era. Wasn't that long ago that World Athletics was considering wiping all records prior to 2005 for that reason!

        3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

        10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

        * Net downhill course

        Last race: National 10km Road Champs, 4 Sept, 34:13

        Up next: Nelson Half Marathon, 6 Nov

        "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

          Steve you have to trust in your training,  your race results, your mileage etc.

          From there you know your splits that you are to run. It won't feel easy but it's just doable.

          If your half is 1.30 and you have run proper marathon training for 4 months, then look at 3.10 for the full.

          I remember that part in Melbourne where we joined the half runners. It did get busy but it was OK.

          50+ PBs -  

          5k 18.21 Hagley Parkrun  July 21      82.27 % age grade

          10k TT 37.21 may 2nd 2021 strava run 82.51 % age grade

          Half marathon  1.23.30 may 21 80.11 % age grade

          " If you don't use it you lose it,  but if you use it, it wears out.

          Somewhere in between is about right "      

           

          SteveChCh


          Hot Weather Complainer

            Interesting, thanks both. Hopefully I can sit at the right pace and just enjoy myself for 25km or so, then get down to business.

             

            piwi, you’re starting to sound like JMac! I’m definitely not going for a 3:10 on debut. I want to hit halfway in 1:40 and take it from there.

            Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

            Recent Races:   Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

            Race plan:  Melbourne Marathon October 2, 2022.  Queenstown Half Marathon November 19, 2022

            flavio1980


            Intl. correspondent

              Zeb - Are you doing weighted split squats? Do you feel very balanced when doing them or do your knee sort of moves slightly in or out when going down?

               

              Caitlin - Sorry to hear about your troubles. As you know, I also fell into a ditch after covid in late December and it took me nearly 4 months to get back to 25 miles per week.

              It was tough and gruelling, I lost nearly all my endurance.

              I hope you find joy in running again.

              If you're looking to become a freelancer, here's a link you might be interested. Toptal has zero offices, it's 100% remote. There are people in IT, writers, finance, accounting, you name it. In fact Toptal also has a very big core team (Toptal core employees), and there are ton's of positions open right now (See here if anything is interesting to you)

               

              Fred - Ok, you take the crown as the biggest person in this board. Kudos on your weight loss journey, I think the formula is 2 seconds per pound per mile.

              I myself transitioned my 5k time from 23 minutes down to 18 minutes mostly on weight loss alone.

               

              Steve - I have a feeling you will do great based only on the fact that you were able to easy run 42km before. When I tried to easy run it I still hit the wall at 37km. This workout this weekend was mostly a mental one so that you could hold the right pace.

              PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

              Up next: Corrida do Dragão 10k

              Tool to generate Strava weekly

              Fredford66


              Running Musician

                Piwi - That's kind of you to say regarding my size vs. time.

                 

                Steve - I don't have a lot of marathon experience, but in my races the early miles were full of the excitement of being there.  My mental problems were in the second half the race (2+ hours of running and only halfway there?!), and that followed physical fatigue somewhere between miles 16 and 20.

                 

                Flavio - I didn't realize 6-footers were uncommon here.  I'd like to get under 200 pounds and stay there.  It seems every year there's a month or two when I'm close, but I always seem to settle back to the 203 - 205 range.  Sometimes it seems I can almost feel my body fighting back when I start getting close to 200.  I kid myself that I'm running to support my eating habit.

                 

                I had my first speed workout of my HM training cycle today.  8 x 600m with 400m recoveries.  As part of my efforts to break 1:50 for a half, I've set a faster target for my speed work, taking it down from 0:58 to 0:57 per 200m (since 200m is a convenient check-in distance on a track).  I managed to finish all but one of the 600s within the new time today, missing only on the second one, when I was still trying to find the groove to run in.  9.1 miles overall for the day.  It's still unseasonably cool here, which was nice, and my RP was out there running with me, so a really good session today.

                5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 39:24 (11/21); 10k 50:32 (10/21); Half 1:50:46 (4/22)

                Upcoming race(s): Crest Best Half Marathon, 10/9
                zebano


                  Fred  The camp bed is ok because I brought my own cot =) I agree that hearing the marine corp band would be pretty neat. As a senior in high school I joined a Boy Scout Explorer crew that practiced with an Army Reserve band and holy smokes was that a lot of fun. Those guys were really good (and honestly it was my first inkling that if I wanted to make it in this world playing trumpet I better enjoy the act of teaching).

                   

                  Piwi  I listen to coffee club, but in podcast format. Eagerly awaiting Ollie's breakdown. Ugg don't mention El-G not being clean, that's another of my favorite athletes being potentially dirty. Sad (but probably true).

                   

                  Mark it's the front of my knees, possibly slightly to the inside. I think I'll drop the split squats for now and try to add nordic curls for hamstring work but those are so incredibly hard I'm afraid they're going to impact tomorrow's run. Oh well, I'll just keep experimenting until I get things right (or break something)

                   

                  DarkWave what do you do to work your hamstrings ? were I going to a gym I'd do Romanian deadlifts but things like 1 leg glute bridges just seem easy ... and seem to target the glutes a lot more than the hamstrings.. and thank you.

                   

                  Watson / Flavio I have studiously avoided certifications in my engineering career. Has it helped your job prospects significantly?

                   

                  Steve  interesting mentality and one I use when racing shorter races but never worked for me in marathons. I hope this race helped you dial in proper Marathon effort.

                   

                  Flavio  no weights. The knees seem to track nicely but I may video them if I do them again. Note that I'm doing what KneesOverToesGuy calls an ATG Split Squat rather than a lunge or a rear leg elevated split squat.  I don't use a block to elevate my heel like he does.

                  1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

                    Zeb El G was never found guilty of doping so its all speculation mainly as he was so fast and in an era of EPO where alot of the Moroccans were caught.

                     

                    Steve sorry I forgot it was your first. Somehow in my first I went all in and achieved my goal but alot of people are scared. I was scared and nervous too but still went for my potential based off shorter race times and my Pfitz 18/70 training block.

                    50+ PBs -  

                    5k 18.21 Hagley Parkrun  July 21      82.27 % age grade

                    10k TT 37.21 may 2nd 2021 strava run 82.51 % age grade

                    Half marathon  1.23.30 may 21 80.11 % age grade

                    " If you don't use it you lose it,  but if you use it, it wears out.

                    Somewhere in between is about right "      

                     

                    darkwave


                    Mother of Cats

                       

                       

                      DarkWave what do you do to work your hamstrings ? were I going to a gym I'd do Romanian deadlifts but things like 1 leg glute bridges just seem easy ... and seem to target the glutes a lot more than the hamstrings.. and thank you.

                       

                       

                      So... historically I've done single leg deadlifts with light to moderate weights - (anywhere from less than 10 pounds if I am working on balance to about 25-30 pounds in the opposite hand).  I've also done reverse planks on my elbows, and hamstring ball curls.

                       

                      But those don't seem to be enough.  To put in context - I have done 5 sets of 6 glute barbell bridges at 2xbody weight and sets of 6 split barbell squats at 1xbody weight.   But when I first tried to just isometrically hold a nordic curl position at near vertical, I lasted about 8 seconds before my hamstrings started spasming.  And I also really struggled with glute bridge walkouts.  So from that basis, it seems like my glutes are much much stronger than my hamstrings.

                       

                      So I've added in:

                      1) trap bar deadlifts (yes, not as hamstring dominant as barbell deadlifts, but much safer, and still make the hammies do some work)

                      2) glute bridge walkouts.

                      3) work on a hyper-extension bench at the gym (hoping to progress to the Roman Chair)

                      4) variants of Nordic curls - either isometric holds at as much of an angle as I can handle, or assisted Nordic curls where I place my hands on a balance ball in front of me to take some of the weight off as I do the Nordic Curl.

                      Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                       

                      And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                      SteveChCh


                      Hot Weather Complainer

                         

                        Steve sorry I forgot it was your first. Somehow in my first I went all in and achieved my goal but alot of people are scared. I was scared and nervous too but still went for my potential based off shorter race times and my Pfitz 18/70 training block.

                         

                        You're a freak of nature though piwi...seriously good and gutsy effort to put it all on the line in your first.  I think I'm in 1:28 half shape at the moment (Southern Lakes handed me a free minute) so if I do the work I should be able to push on towards the end of the race.  Of course, who knows what surprises await me when I'm 35km in.

                        Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

                        Recent Races:   Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

                        Race plan:  Melbourne Marathon October 2, 2022.  Queenstown Half Marathon November 19, 2022

                        flavio1980


                        Intl. correspondent

                          Fred - Tell me about it, it’s a struggle to get down in weight.

                          I did manage to get down to 77kg 170lb last year at the tail end of marathon training, but quickly gained 7kg 15lb in the 3 or 4 months after the race.

                          As much as I gave you grief for not training at current pace, late 2019 and early 2020 I was coached by Luke Humphrey, who wrote the Hanson’s method books.

                          And he would prescribe me half marathon workouts just faster than current pace. You’re most likely onto something there.

                           

                          Zeb - Not me, Watson is the one with multiple certifications and why I said I hope he’s swimming in dollars cause the effort to get them is insanely high.

                          FYI I also do Bridge walk outs for hamstrings. Since I’m so weak, these are enough to work out my hamstrings and I’m sore afterwards. 

                           

                          Piwi/Zeb - I find it hard to believe that only a few runners are doped. It’s most likely that every single one of the top runners is onto some undetectable, highly specialised, customised drugs.

                           

                          DW - obligatory “Damn you're strong!”

                          PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

                          Up next: Corrida do Dragão 10k

                          Tool to generate Strava weekly

                          Fredford66


                          Running Musician

                            Zebano - The personal cot was a good idea.  I learned in high school that, while everyone told me I was a good musician, I didn't have that extra level of talent needed to make a good living as a musician.  I think I'm much happier having it as a hobby.

                             

                            Steve - You sound pretty well informed.  I made rookie mistakes in my first marathon.  Went out too fast.  Tired out early.  In retrospect, I ran my first marathon too early in my racing "career" as it was only a few years after my first 5k.  I think you'll do much better.

                             

                            DW - That's some leg workout routine.

                             

                            Zebano - I've learned running plans/philosophies are almost like religions - everyone has theirs and it's a matter of how fervently they believe in it and how open minded they are to others.  I know what works for me (right now that's Hansons), but I know it doesn't work for everyone.  A day may come when I change plans, but for now I'll stick with what works.  As to weight, my lowest was when I trained for the NY marathon 4 years ago, but I also gained that back in 3-4 months.

                             

                            Rest day for me today, and also a commute into the city/office day.  I may push back tomorrow's HM run to Friday, as there are some thunderstorms currently forecast for Thursday morning.

                            5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 39:24 (11/21); 10k 50:32 (10/21); Half 1:50:46 (4/22)

                            Upcoming race(s): Crest Best Half Marathon, 10/9
                            zebano


                               

                              So... historically I've done single leg deadlifts with light to moderate weights - (anywhere from less than 10 pounds if I am working on balance to about 25-30 pounds in the opposite hand).  I've also done reverse planks on my elbows, and hamstring ball curls.

                               

                              But those don't seem to be enough.  To put in context - I have done 5 sets of 6 glute barbell bridges at 2xbody weight and sets of 6 split barbell squats at 1xbody weight.   But when I first tried to just isometrically hold a nordic curl position at near vertical, I lasted about 8 seconds before my hamstrings started spasming.  And I also really struggled with glute bridge walkouts.  So from that basis, it seems like my glutes are much much stronger than my hamstrings.

                               

                              So I've added in:

                              1) trap bar deadlifts (yes, not as hamstring dominant as barbell deadlifts, but much safer, and still make the hammies do some work)

                              2) glute bridge walkouts.

                              3) work on a hyper-extension bench at the gym (hoping to progress to the Roman Chair)

                              4) variants of Nordic curls - either isometric holds at as much of an angle as I can handle, or assisted Nordic curls where I place my hands on a balance ball in front of me to take some of the weight off as I do the Nordic Curl.

                               

                              wow that's a lot of work! I totally agree with 4, nordics are just absurdly difficult compared to just about any other exercise..  Regarding #1 can you do Romanian deadlifts with the trap bar?

                               

                              I've actually been thinking a bit more and while I do think there's something to my theory about hamstrings being undertrained,  I've also been doing a lot more calf work (single leg calf raises, mostly bent knee, some straight) than I have since my bout with P.F. Maybe those are the culprit. More likely I just need to see a professional.

                               

                              Piwi you did 18/70? mad respect and a well deserved sub 3.

                               

                              Flavio that's been my assumption across professional sports since roughly 2001. Are you aware of the absolute crazy number of high schoolers running sub 4 this year in the US? I think it's up to 6 or so. I wonder if some of that is trickling down or if it's really just shoes + knowing that other people are doing it so you can too.

                               

                               

                              Fred I think community band would be an incredibly fun thing to do, you made a great choice! Do you ever get to play for musicals? That's what I miss the most from high school is pit because the music is always fantastic.

                              1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

                                Zeb I started running in 2010 and got that sub 3 in 2013.

                                I was very into my running then but had to build that mileage up over those 3 years. 18/70 was tough but I followed it to the letter.

                                I tried to do 18/85 or whatever it's  called for the next marathon however it was just too much and I started burning out mentally and physically. I managed to drop it back a bit and salvage that cycle to get another sub 3 in the 2nd marathon.

                                50+ PBs -  

                                5k 18.21 Hagley Parkrun  July 21      82.27 % age grade

                                10k TT 37.21 may 2nd 2021 strava run 82.51 % age grade

                                Half marathon  1.23.30 may 21 80.11 % age grade

                                " If you don't use it you lose it,  but if you use it, it wears out.

                                Somewhere in between is about right "