Forums >Racing>2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread
RIP Milkman
JT - Fantastic final week before taper! (but can’t believe JMac didn’t tell you off for running a 20miler 2 weeks out )
One thing at a time with the taper. I think I've pointed out before that I think there is too much emphasis on long runs on these boards, especially close to the race. In the marathon, people lose steam at the end and conclude it's because they didn't have enough long runs, so they add more and jam them close to the race. Endurance specifically is a long term builder and you cannot lose any by having your longest run 4 weeks out and really tapering down from there. People don't end a 5K poorly and conclude they need more endurance (unless you're 16 years old). In general, if you're peaking around 22/23 mile long runs, I wouldn't go longer than 18 2 weeks out.
Anyway, let's not go down the rabbit hole on too many topics here. Otherwise, we'll be discussing whether iamdisappoint's training was impressive or not, if marathoners go to die in ultras, how running watching TV impacts you, and whether the dead zone truly exists.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Dammit Mikkey, I almost got off the hook till you alerted him!
We're all different in our preferences for LRs and for me it is one of my favorite parts of training so I probably tend towards more of them. It was an all-easy LR in my defense.
JMac: Are you at sea level for good again or will you return to CO? How does it feel to run with some oxygen in the air?
Mikkey: Impressive LR by you today!
2:52:16 (2018)
I'm back at sea level now. After a month at 9K feet, the difference is unbelievable. I couldn't believe how easy it was going up hills.
I will say though I do think there's some value in the "live high, train low" mantra. I ran my usual 8 mile easy run yesterday and I am very sore. Why? Because at sea level, I could run almost 45 seconds per mile faster than at elevation. While that's a cool feeling, it means your muscles and ligaments are not ready to run faster. I could see this being an issue for longer races where you feel great from an oxygen perspective, but your muscles are just not used to running that hard. Totally understand why some runners try to create those low pressure chambers to sleep in.
Problem Child
I'm back at sea level now. After a month at 9K feet, the difference is unbelievable. I couldn't believe how easy it was going up hills. I will say though I do think there's some value in the "live high, train low" mantra. I ran my usual 8 mile easy run yesterday and I am very sore. Why? Because at sea level, I could run almost 45 seconds per mile faster than at elevation. While that's a cool feeling, it means your muscles and ligaments are not ready to run faster. I could see this being an issue for longer races where you feel great from an oxygen perspective, but your muscles are just not used to running that hard. Totally understand why some runners try to create those low pressure chambers to sleep in.
Why do you think I love CIM so much? I live at 4,500 and race at 200. As for the soreness, your easy paces are just slower and after living at 9,000 ft elevation you accumulate more red blood cells to make running at your race pace possible, and only at sea level do you notice how much faster you're capable of running. I think if you lived at elevation for four months you'd notice an improvement in how you feel after a run.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
Mother of Cats
In the marathon, people lose steam at the end and conclude it's because they didn't have enough long runs, so they add more and jam them close to the race. Endurance specifically is a long term builder and you cannot lose any by having your longest run 4 weeks out and really tapering down from there.
Agree - sometimes when you lose steam at the end, it's because of too MANY long runs, not too few.
One golden rule of training - do as much as you need to get the desired result, but no more.
(of course, another golden rule of training is that it's important to enjoy your training).
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
Why do you think I love CIM so much?
Because it's a downhill course, of course.
3 months til Masters
Why I'm hammering more speed this cycle. I feel like my endurance is good after 2 years of strong mileage. I'm I'm going to improve i have to actually get fast.
Agree - sometimes when you lose steam at the end, it's because of too MANY long runs, not too few. One golden rule of training - do as much as you need to get the desired result, but no more. (of course, another golden rule of training is that it's important to enjoy your training).
2023 Goals
Marathon Sub 2:37 (CIM) 2:41:18
10k Sub 35:00 (Victory 10k 34:19)
5k Sub 16:00 (Hot Dash 5k in March (16:48), Brian Kraft in May (16:20), Twilight 5000 in July and August (16:20/16:25 Both heat index 102-103F)
Sub 1:16 Half Marathon City of Lakes Half Marathon 1:15:47)
Sub 56:30 in 10 mile (Twin Cities 10 mile, Canceled due to weather, 56:35 as a workout)
2024 Goals
Sub 2:37 Marathon
Sub 1:15 Half
Sub 34 10k
Sub 16 5k
That's why I've often shifted between mile/5K focus and marathon. If I rachet up the speed, then my ceiling for marathon pace is higher. I'm very good at holding what I have, but I don't always have as much as others.
And...as I get older, it's really important just to keep in touch with speed and power so I don't lose it permanently.
I have been pretty surprised after a few weeks i split a 33 sec 200m at the end of a workout pretty effortlessly. I honestly didn't think I could ever go sub 2:00 in an 800 again, and now I think I might actually do it at our alumni meet this coming winter.
I'm a firm believer in the following order of importance for a marathon assuming this isn't your first marathon and you're seriously trying to run fast times:
1) Miles per week
2) LT runs
3) Long runs
Most people would probably say long runs first, then MPW, then LT runs.
Man, I love CIM and their organization.
From today's email re upcoming 2021 CIM marathon and using voucher codes from the cancelled 2020 race:
...
paces PRs - 5K - 5:48 / 10K - 6:05 / HM - 6:14 / FM - 6:26 per mile
Mmmm Bop
JT - Will you be racing in the Endorphin Pro? I’m thinking of buying a pair for Richmond as it’s a multi terrain course with some sections slightly uneven and don’t think my old VFs would be suitable. Do you reckon they’d be more stable?
I love the Endorphin Speed, but the Shift is nothing special and will stick with Skechers (which are less than half the price) for easy/recovery runs.
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
JT - Will you be racing in the Endorphin Pro? I’m thinking of buying a pair for Richmond as it’s a multi terrain course with some sections slightly uneven and don’t think my old VFs would be suitable. Do you reckon they’d be more stable? I love the Endorphin Speed, but the Shift is nothing special and will stick with Skechers (which are less than half the price) for easy/recovery runs.
Hey Mikkey, yes, I will wear the Endorphin Pro for this race. I personally think it is a touch faster than the VF though I'm probably in the minority on that. It feels much more stable to me, like a normal shoe. Also does not have the clownish look of the VFs.
Cal: Is Western States the ultra you tried to get into many times? Did you ever run it? I just looked at the entry list and saw Walmsley is on it. Maybe he'll get under 14 hours this year. I love being able to follow him on strava; it's insane what he runs on a daily basis!
JTR: Western States is a Bucket List thing for me. The problem is that it's practically impossible to get to run it. There are only 270 spots every year and thousands and thousands of runners who are trying to get in. For regular runners like me the only way to get in is through lottery. Every year you participate in the lottery and if you didn't not win, your number of "tickets" is doubled. For example, I am participated in the Western States 100 lottery for 5 times (never got any luck). So, the last time I was in the lottery, I had 16 tickets (2 power of (5-1)). There were runners that year (2019 was the last time because it was cancelled in 2020) who were participating for 8 years - that means they had 128 tickets / chances to win. And still, few of those 8 years runners didn't get into the race. In 2019, with my 16 tickets I had only like 8-9% chance to get in . The worst part is - the more years go by the less and less prepared I am - it's tough to run 100 miles in June in California, but my goal is also to run it under 24 hours. Or it was. I think right now 30 hours would be a dream too 30 hours is a cut off time - your results are not listed if you ran it longer than 30 hours.
Jesus wept.
No way would I ever do ultra stuff as it’s a completely different thing. I’m 55yo, but I’ve still got a bit of speed in me and definitely still capable of PRs. After that I’ll stick to golf rather than walk/shuffle ultras.