2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread (Read 276 times)

darkwave


Mother of Cats

    3:46 on 10mpw...you’re a freak!

     

    I do feel better reading these comments. The first 10km will be so crucial. I’ll feel fresh and be wearing my cheat shoes but it’s crucial I’m at the right pace. Even 3-5 secs per km slower than target would be okay

     

    Much more than that would be OK for the first miles.

     

    Let's do some math. Suppose that for your first 2K, you are a full 20 seconds per K slower than your goal pace.  So you're 40 seconds down by the end of 2K.

     

    That means that over the next 40K, you have to make up exactly 1 second per K.  That's nothing.

     

    Running a marathon is like driving through the desert on a single tank of gas.  In that situation, do you floor the gas pedal to speed up to your cruising speed after each stop?  Or do you slowly and carefully accelerate to be as efficient as possible?

     

    ***

     

    Also, regarding the "pain" of the marathon - I get a little twitchy when people get too focused on it.  People who think the marathon is supposed to be incredibly painful at some point are the same people who will chase that pain, and be ill at ease with just how comfortable you have to be in the first 13 miles.  And thus they blow up, and end up with the painful experience they were chasing.

    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

     

    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

      Great discussion! Steve, if you follow DWs advice and ease into the pace, it should be an overall pleasant experience. My first marathon I started cautiously and had about a 3 minute negative split. I kept waiting for the bottom to fall out the last 10 miles but it never did and I felt great. I need to get back to that kind of race execution....

       

      Injury question for you all:  I've had a pain under my 2nd biggest toe on my right foot for several months now, but it was just an annoyance and totally runnable. The last few weeks it has gotten worse (ahem, with a certain trail race really blowing it up....), and after Tuesday's run was quite bad. Doing some google doctoring it matches all the symptoms of metatarsalgia. Has anyone had this?  JMac, is this what you had a couple years ago? I made a makeshift pad and duct taped it behind the pain area, and this helps a lot. But based on what I've read, when it gets as bad as it is for me now, you need to not run and let it heal, or risk serious damage that may need surgery. So I've been relegated to the stationary bike till this gets better.

      2:52:16 (2018)

      JMac11


      Taper Czar

         

        Mikkey is the best! 

         

        Mikkey is the best, Andres is the smartest. Now I can't tell if you're just trolling!

        5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

         

        Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 


        Elite Jogger

           

          Mikkey is the best, Andres is the smartest. Now I can't tell if you're just trolling!

           

          JMac is the fastest!  (but the biggest hypochondriac during taper)

           

          I agree that Andres is the smartest along with DW....let’s just say that if I was a politician I would employ them to be my advisers. 👍

          5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

          Andres1045


             

            Injury question for you all:  I've had a pain under my 2nd biggest toe on my right foot for several months now, but it was just an annoyance and totally runnable. The last few weeks it has gotten worse (ahem, with a certain trail race really blowing it up....), and after Tuesday's run was quite bad. Doing some google doctoring it matches all the symptoms of metatarsalgia. Has anyone had this?  JMac, is this what you had a couple years ago? I made a makeshift pad and duct taped it behind the pain area, and this helps a lot. But based on what I've read, when it gets as bad as it is for me now, you need to not run and let it heal, or risk serious damage that may need surgery. So I've been relegated to the stationary bike till this gets better.

             

            I had this issue too. I saw a podiatrist who diagnosed it in a second. This is what he told me. Do the pad thing, but not when you're running. He showed me exactly where to place the pad (it was not on the metatarsal, but just behind it). It lifted the metatarsal and gave it a break. He told me to do that for 4 to 5 hours a day in my normal shoes. Don't do it while running. He told me I could continue to run on it. But of course mine might not have been as bad as yours. I had it for about 6 months before going to see him, and it cleared up in about two weeks after seeing him. It was quite bad before I finally saw him.

             

            ------

             

            I'd be careful about listening to too much of what I say. If I was that smart, I'd definitely be able to execute better at the marathon.

             

            Steve, I wouldn't worry too much about it. I like what Marky says. It's similar to every race, just longer. Think about it like this. The pain cave in a 5k is way worse. But for me, even though most 5k's I start to reach the pain limit about 400 meters in, I have less than 3 miles to go so I can manage it. In a marathon, it's significantly less painful, but you can get it as early as mile 16. Just know there can be ups and downs, so you're ready for it. In the end though, if running your best race was easy, it probably wouldn't be much fun.

            Upcoming races: Boston

               

              I had this issue too. I saw a podiatrist who diagnosed it in a second. This is what he told me. Do the pad thing, but not when you're running. He showed me exactly where to place the pad (it was not on the metatarsal, but just behind it). It lifted the metatarsal and gave it a break. He told me to do that for 4 to 5 hours a day in my normal shoes. Don't do it while running. He told me I could continue to run on it. But of course mine might not have been as bad as yours. I had it for about 6 months before going to see him, and it cleared up in about two weeks after seeing him. It was quite bad before I finally saw him.

               

              Thanks Andres, this is reassuring. That is what I'm doing now; just wearing the pad in my shoes while at work. Walking barefoot is the worst, so I've been wearing shoes most of the time at home as well, but not always with the pad in them.

              2:52:16 (2018)

              JMac11


              Taper Czar

                 

                JMac is the fastest!  (but the biggest hypochondriac during taper)

                 

                Haven't had a taper tantrum in 2 straight marathons! Also one of the tantrums I left a doctor's office in a boot 2 days before NYC telling me I had a fracture based on x-rays. I don't take blame for that one.

                 

                JT - great memory. Andres actually recommended some foot pads for me that saved me (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01K8QDWHS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1). I did wear them in my running shoes though until it calmed down, and then kept them in my day to day walking/work shoes until it was 0 pain. I always am shoeless in my house, but during that period I had to wear shoes for a few weeks to keep the pain down. It did take a few months to go from very painful to zero pain, but I was able to run throughout it. I attacked it right away though when it happened which may have saved me.

                 

                Good luck.

                5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                 

                Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

                  Its always suspicious when Cal is handing out compliments 😒 

                   

                  JT i had that in my last marathon cycle in 2014 when I hit peak week training. Eventually it subsided when my mileage came back down in taper.

                  50+ PBs -  

                  5k 18.25 Tauranga Parkrun  Sept 20      81.97 % age grade

                  10k 37.21 may 2nd 2021 strava run 82.51 % age grade

                  Half marathon  1.23.30 may 21 80.11 % age grade

                  " If you don't use it you lose it,  but if you use it, it wears out.

                  Somewhere in between is about right "      

                   


                  Elite Jogger

                    Its always suspicious when Cal is handing out compliments 😒 

                     

                     

                    He’s my favourite virtual Russian friend and I’ll not have anyone say a bad word about him! 

                    5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                      Thanks JMac and Piwi for the feedback. JMac those pads look just like the ones I ordered; hopefully I'll get them soon and will put them in my shoes. The half-assed one I made is ok but I suspect the real thing will work a bit better. It's so annoying having something as small/minor as a toe causing such a big problem!

                      2:52:16 (2018)

                      dpschumacher


                      Making a comeback

                        Just got next week JMac. 74 miles, 1 faster workout, 90 min long run.

                         

                        Taper is coming!

                         

                        New 2020 Goal: Actually run a race, any race, just run a real legit race. **Eye Twitching**

                        USATFMN XC 6k Lake Elmo Championship 21:49

                         

                        2021 Goals (Assuming we can race again)

                        Marathon Sub 2:40

                        10k Sub 35:00 in Marathon build

                        5k Sub 16:30 in Marathon build

                        darkwave


                        Mother of Cats

                           

                           

                          Taper is coming!

                           

                          Woo!  (I'm already there...)

                           

                          JTReeves - I'm sorry you are dealing with this issue (and running the 10 miler on it must have sucked).  I hope the pad helps!

                           

                          OMR (going back a few pages) - you noted that mile 25 of Grandma's, through downtown Duluth, is on pavestones and can be rough.  That mile is not part of the course this year - for the past few years that area has been under construction and they have rerouted the race to the next street over (which is an access road).  That detour was only supposed to be for 2017-2020, but the website says that they're using it again this year, so I guess the construction isn't done.

                           

                          I actually prefer the detour to the original course - it's a bit more shaded and cooler.

                          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                           

                          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                          OMR


                            Dwave:  Yeah, we haven't been to Duluth in a few years, so I wasn't aware of that.  I found a document online that said they hope to have that area open for traffic by June 16th, so a few days before Grandma's.  Obviously that's too late to plan for racing on it this year.

                             

                            JT:  Hopefully the foot pain goes away quickly.  This is something I deal with permanently, as my 2nd metatarsal head is longer than the first.  This is why I have custom made orthotics (they have built-in pads to take pressure off the metatarsal heads)...and also why shoe discussions are somewhat irrelevant for me.

                             

                            My week:

                             

                            S:  Rest

                            M:  8 @ 8:09

                            T:  8.1 @ 7:42 w/3 x 5min Tempo Intervals (6:40/mile average)

                            W:  7.2 @ 8:23

                            T:  9.5 @ 7:39 w/20min Tempo (6:45/mile)

                            F:  3.4 @ 9:46 Trail

                            S:  13 @ 8:05

                             

                            Total:  49.2

                            Marby


                              Sage advice to be found here, for sure.  Highlights:

                               

                              darkwave on understanding/trusting training ‘Ultimately, to run your best, you need to be happy, confident, and relaxed.  And there are different ways, both physiologically and psychologically, to get there.’ Gold, that entire post.

                               

                              Mikkey on fear of marathon distance for Steve in particular but a timely reminder for anyone with less experience (which is most of us to be fair) ‘I’ve run close to 40 marathons and there have only been 3 or 4 experiences that were awful. Why? Because I went out too fast knowing full well that I couldn’t hold the pace!’.

                               

                              So, a day after the marathon was officially postponed, I came up with a plan which I’m calling ‘Double taper with a half twist’.

                              My hypothesis is that a ‘false taper’ approximately 7 weeks from my ‘goal’ marathon is actually going to be beneficial in optimising performance. That taper may allow me to adequately recover and better consolidate gains in fitness before a short subsequent block of approximately 3 weeks with higher quality workouts to promote further gains and still allows 2 weeks to peak, again. Gotta look for the silver lining in this ‘situation’.

                               

                              Since I was tapered and ready to roll I decided to run a half marathon time trial on Saturday (day before I was to race the marathon).  I came up with a fast course within a 5k radius from home. The other restriction that I need to work within at the moment is 2 hours outside of the home for exercise.  There is nothing quite like being told you can’t exercise to make people want to, so I needed to be out early enough to avoid congestion on the trail. Weather was perfect – 4C/39F and still.  Attempted to be efficient with the time available by warming up with 3k from home to start point that also included drills and strides.

                               

                              The plan was to find half marathon pace by feel.  I had estimated that it was going to be around 4:15-4:20 which would get me a 1:30-1:32 finish. The early pace that I settled in at was a bit faster (4:08) but it felt genuinely sustainable.  The conditions, taper and endorphin pro all playing a part in that, I guess.  Was a bit confused to see my pace drop at 12/13k but realised it was just a GPS wobble and apart from that I was consistently ticking along around 4:08’s.  Through the middle my thoughts were around staying smooth, controlled and getting to 16k feeling like I could attack the last 5k. Executed that and knew I was on for a good time.  Then thoughts turned to running that next 5k at 5k effort which resulted in a small improvement in pace. There wasn’t much left in the tank for a ‘kick’ in the final stages but at least I wasn’t losing pace.  Stopped at 21.32k to allow for GPS error with the clock at 1:28:04. That’s a good two minutes faster than I thought was best case and a leap toward where I want to get, so very happy with that result!

                               

                              I had my first jab on Friday and was a tad concerned about an effect on performance in the time trial.  The way I felt it might well have been laced with EPO.  Might have to schedule the second dose for the day before the marathon. 😏

                               

                              Another factor in the lead up that I was uncertain about was nutrition.  I did a 48 hour fast from Wed PM to Fri PM.  So really only had one meal on Fri evening to restore glycogen. Fish’n’chips, biscuits and fruit juice must have got that done. Being fat adapted is likely to have been an advantage but I think it’s clear that at least, it is not a disadvantage.

                               

                              Also did 677 push-ups across 5 days this week as part of a challenge that raises funds and awareness for mental health.  In total will be doing 3318 push-ups over 25 days. Those first 5 days weren’t easy but should build a decent base for the remainder.

                               

                              05/31/2021 To 06/06/2021

                              Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                              in ft
                              06/01 7k @MP 7.78 12.52 01:00:44 07:48 04:51 154
                              06/02 Easy 6.22 10.02 00:54:29 08:46 05:26 200
                              06/04 Easy 4.39 7.06 00:38:19 08:44 05:26 174
                              06/05 Warm 1.93 3.11 00:16:17 08:26 05:14 7
                              06/05 The Marby Half 13.25 21.32 01:27:59 06:38 04:08 184
                              06/05 Cool 1.62 2.61 00:14:02 08:40 05:23 151
                              06/06 Easy 4.38 7.04 00:37:17 08:31 05:18 207

                              Total distance: 39.58mi

                              10K 41:35 (2016), Half 1:27:01 (2015) Marathon 3:02:48 (2015)

                              flavio1980


                              King of pastries

                                Andres - Yeah, by wall I meant complete muscular failure so that you are physically unable to run anymore.

                                A slight fade in pace and seeing pink unicorns are mild issues in comparison.

                                 

                                DPS - the 1500 is where it’s at. By the time I start to tire it’s already time to kick to the finish line!

                                Here’s to an uneventful taper.

                                 

                                Mikkey - You’re like an MI6 secret project built for the marathon.

                                As a matter of fact I think anybody who can easy run 26 miles is a freak of nature (due to immense muscular strength)

                                 

                                JT - Ouch, hope you find a way to keep running and get better soon.

                                 

                                Marby - Woah, very nice half time trial. I’ve done one earlier this year and they’re super hard when you get to those last 3-4 km.

                                 

                                me - A nice week, thought have asked for a cut back week next as the symptoms of overtraining are here.

                                Weekly for period: From: 31/05/2021 To 06/06/2021

                                Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                                in m
                                01/06 6x (90s ON 60s OFF) 6.89 11.09 00:56:39 08:13 05:06 38
                                02/06 Morning Run 8.01 12.88 01:04:32 08:03 05:01 30
                                03/06 14x400@3k avg 1:27 each 8.29 13.34 01:05:26 07:54 04:54 18
                                04/06 Morning Run 8.00 12.88 01:05:15 08:09 05:04 50
                                05/06 6 miles + 4 uphill strides + 2 downhill strides 6.40 10.30 00:53:31 08:22 05:12 71
                                06/06 Morning Run 17.01 27.36 02:22:57 08:24 05:13 146

                                Total distance: 87.85km / 54.6 mi / 7h28

                                PRs: 1500m 4:54 (2019) 3K 10:34 (2019) 5K 17:56.7 (2021) 9.86K 36:40 (2020) HM 1:21:59 (2021)

                                Up next: ????

                                Tool to generate Strava weekly