+1  My first marathon, I trained the least for and it was one of the more pleasant ones - I ran it close to my easy run pace and had a slight negative split. Felt good the whole time.  My 3rd marathon, I averaged 62mpw leading up to it and it was miserable.    (But it was also almost an hour faster than the first)

 

Also, I haven't run over 18 miles outside of a race since my first.  I do think the long runs make more of a difference when you're running lower mileage (or need assurance).

I agree.  And even if not following Hanson, if you run 55-60+mpw, an 18 miler will suffice.  Which is why I now have 20-22 milers before SF.  Don't ask.

 

I agree.  And even if not following Hanson, if you run 55-60+mpw, an 18 miler will suffice.  Which is why I now have 20-22 milers before SF.  Don't ask.

See, that's the kind of logic that I understand. 

Okay, since the thread is called Tips and Advice, and there are so many of you, marathon pros, assembled here, I have a question for you: I'm doing a shortened version of Pfitz "in between marathons" 6 week plan (shortened because I only have 5 weeks and there are no 5 week plan). I ran my last marathon on May 11th. A week later, on the Sunday, I ran 18 miles, because I had only run once during the week and I wanted a total of 28 miles for my first recovery week. Since then, I followed the plan to the letter, except this last Sunday, when I was supposed to run 18 miles before starting my taper. Family obligations kept me from running that day. I thought I'd run the 18 miler on Monday, after work, but I was only able to run 15, before heat and general after work fatigue forced me to stop. So now, I am faced with this dilemma: Do I run the 18 miler this coming weekend, one week before race day? Or do I stick to the 13 miler of the schedule?

 

I feel so thick sometimes...

Stick to the plan.  You did everything by the letter; a mere 3 miles missed won't do a damn thing.

Lol

Okay. But if I fail in my next race, I will blame it on the fact that I did not run that 18 miler. Therefore, I will blame the two of you.

 

My advice is to take time off now. The last thing you want to do is enter a marathon prep dinged up. The bulk of your aerobic house building chores are 6 months outside of your schedue or the marathon itself. Aerobic fitness is build over years, not months. To cram added volume + intensity over a short window is not the best approach. Yeah, I know most people do just that and they also end up with less than rewarding results.

One mistake I've managed to avoid is entering my marathon schedule on dead or sore legs. The one time I had some mild tendonitis I was forced to eliminate all speedwork and reduce mileage by 30% for the 1st 6 weeks [Pfitz 18/70 schedule]. Giving my body an opportunity to heal up I was able to jump right back on schedule and actually exceded peak mileage. I'm sure if I had just followed the schedule blindly it would have increased my odds of a DNS or not meeting my goal.

Doesn't sound like you have an injury, just that your body is trying to tell you it needs a break. When was your last cut back week? You can't keep building. I bet if you reduced your mileage for a week or two those niggles would go away and you'd be primed to begin your marathon training. Someone suggested your long runs may be out of whack given your mileage. Long runs increase the opportunity for overuse injury. Better to reduce the length and tack on those miles somewhere else - like a mid-week run. Two[2] double digit runs is better than one. Good luck.

EDIT. I forget to mention, for your debut marathon training you're going to feel beat up... and that's on rested legs. Unless you've subjected your body to increased mileage + long runs you'll have enough challenges to deal with. You don't want to make it harder by entering your schedule with minor aches & pains. 

I see a lot of people talk about how much their first marathon sucked, and that it sucks for everyone. I don't think that has to be true if you train properly, and most importantly, pace properly.

My debut was my easiest [of 20] marathon. This is because I didn't treat it as a race, I just wanted to cover the distance. Call it a glorifed long run. Also the discrepency between my 10k race pace and eventual marathon race pace was huge - almost two minutes which made MP seem stupid easy.

1) As people have talked about, it is important to mitigate the small/medium aches and pains when they start. Losing a day, or even two, to let something wonky recover isn't the end of the world. Losing a week or two because you were a slave to the plan becomes a more serious detriment, especially going into your first marathon.

 

2) The marathon is a race, just like a 5K or a half. If all your long runs are "easy", you'll only be able to run easy come race day. The amount you run at MP is highly dependent on your goal, but try to do at least portions of some of your LRs at MP.

 

3) The more miles you run during training, the less your race will hurt.

Great advice... for an advanced runner. I'm guessing most beginners are doing their long runs too fast; similar to or faster than their goal race pace BUT that said I'm sure 99% aren't coming close to their potential based on their 5k speed.

BTW, I agree with Jay. The marathon is a race no different from any other race. However, I disagree that more mileage makes it hurt less. More mileage just means you can run it faster. It probably hurts more.

True. The difference is when you train properly and execute a smart pace plan you'll stand a better chance of finding yourself on pace, so the "suck" is buffered by knowing you're in position to hit your goal. When you haven't prepared properly or mismanaged your pace execution it still sucks [sometimes worse] all the while knowing you will not achieve your goal.

1. There is a HUGH gap between hobby jogging and racing on the edge for a marathon. And somewhere in between those two is certainly a range of "just having fun with it".

Agreed. Most runners do not know or even want to know what preparing yourself for and then racing 26.2 miles feels like. Racing any distance on the edge is very hard. The difference, as noted, is that with the marathon the commitment in training [volume] is higher and the opportunity [to race well] far fewer. And because of the length of the event all sorts of things can go south all the while being subjected to whims of the weather gods. It's a major crap shoot.

I used to think I liked long runs. I also used to think I liked marathon training.

I used to fall alseep dreaming about the morning long run. And while I've had more successful marathons than failures I've had just a handful that reached or exceded my pre-race goals. There have been too many times when weather, miss timing my peak, illness or injury resulted in a less than ideal race performance. So rather than see several months of training be derailed by something [possibly] beyond my control I rather point toward events where should something go south I can reload and still take advantage of the training.

My last cutback week......with no race involved.... mid April and that was 4 days off due to achy ankles.

You're due for another.

My last cutback week......with no race involved.... mid April and that was 4 days off due to achy ankles.

Okay, I've messed with my training plan some more (and it is always flexible and can be changed). Take a look and tell me what you think.

http://www.runningahead.com/logs/6d1d5cb5e27e4230a9d79029229a9ba6/plans/453

Thanks Meaghan.

1 - the 2.5's are only because of Jumpstart and Team 13, they're focusing on building up to a half marathon and I figure those runs can be easy recovery runs, plus I am overly cautious. I've suffered from "too much, too soon" way too many times, and feel it's best for me to just increase new runs slowly especially when the other runs are increasing at the same time. If I realize I'd be better off with 2 rest days, I'll go back to 5 days a week and have the smallest run no less than 3 miles.

2 - It would probably be wise to have a few more extreme cutback weeks, which I can always do throughout the training, allowing my body to decide what week needs to be a cutback week rather than setting it in stone.

3 -  I'll most likely change my Wednesday and Saturday runs to trails, but my main concern and focus is on a road marathon so I want enough time on the hard crap so that my body can adapt to that without any trouble. I would really like to have my Friday run on the hilly trails in Audubon State park for a hill workout, and I can probably do that occasionally, maybe every other week.

4: That's the only half in the area around that time, I figure after our vacation to Tennessee last month, one more weekend of traveling is enough for DH and my son. Plus I want to make sure I am doing everything right, if I do a race I know I'll end up pushing too hard and screw everything up, and I don't want that. I've read many times that if you can race a shorter distance and race it your best during marathon training then you aren't doing the training right. Many books and articles state that the whole point of marathon and ultra training is to adapt to running on fatigued legs.

I've always been the type to just "wing it" and I've made too many mistakes in the last 4 years with pushing myself and overdoing it, I just want to be cautious and avoid doing that this time. It would probably be easier if I had a personal coach telling me what to do and assessing my condition but I don't