Hi. I used to to run 10km twice a week, and sometimes a third longer run or a trail run.
I always used to get around 160 bpm average HR, a little bit lower (155) in longer runs (> 2hours).
I started MAF training 1 month ago. I'm 34 so MAF HR = 146 bpm. Since the runs became easier, I started running the 10km 3 to 4 times a week. I included an ultra hard trail run a week ago that took me 6 hours to finish (very hilly and technical), but I ran it below 146bpm (the best I could).
Last week I ran 4 times, then I took 2 days break, and today I redid the MAF test. The results were way worse than in the first test!
(The last pair of columns are the average)
Has this happened to anyone? I'm a bit frustrated because I switched to only aerobic runs, I started running on fast (3 hours without eating, or the entire night), I stopped weightlifting, I changed my diet a little (no sugars, less hydrates, more fat) and increased the number of runs... And in the end I did much worse!
I have read everywhere that the results would show immediately... Could it be not enough rest?
I'm determined to try MAF trainning at least for 3 months, but I have to say, my morale has fallen... If anyone had similar results in the beginning please let me know.
Thanks!
Slow and Steady
I have had some ups and downs with MAF since starting it in November (you can look at my blog to see the details), but the bottom line is that I have consistently seen a correlation between volume (number of hours running per week) and pace. Now that I am running at least 6-7 hours a week at MAF pace, I have been improving consistently.
I can't tell from your post how many hours a week you've been running. If your volume is already okay, maybe there's some other issue. But my first guess is that your volume is still not quite at the sweet spot for improving your MAF pace.
Good luck and keep us in the loop!
Eric S.
Trail Mix ||| dailymile ||| RA log
Goals: 50km, 50-miler, 100km, 100-miler
Where's the resident svwngali jimmyb?
Rui - every person is different in time to adapt. Whe I started MAF it took time to show results. So patience is indeed a virtue. I would recommend a MAF test once per month as a baseline. This is really the key to gauge progress. It took me a year to get this point. Trying to run in a normal setting introduces far too many variables (stress, heat, humidity, hills, diet, etc.) The test criteria are in the stickies. I would recommend you do this in the next couple of days, continue to train at MAF or below without the extra stimuli of hard trail racing for a couple of weeks and come back to the test. My gut says you should start seeing some results.
You've made lots of changes and the body takes time to adapt.
Keep rolling as it does make a difference.
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"He conquers who endures" - Persius "Every workout should have a purpose. Every purpose should link back to achieving a training objective." - Spaniel
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Norm, it's MISTER Svwngali.
Rui,
Give it time. You've made big changes. The change in diet could be affecting your pace, as you're forcing your body to use more fat as fuel, which you might not have a body well-adapted to it, or that needs a bit more carbs (like me, any diets make my MAF pace regress, while for others, it might help).
You've also had a 6-hour run in there, which is a hard blow to the body, MAF or not. That can affect a test.
Also, for some people, they will see a regression int the first month. I'm not exactly sure why. My theories are that the switchover to working almost exclusively slow-twitchers exhausts them almost completely for a number of weeks, and it takes time for the adaptation-----and/or you haven't hit your training load sweet spot for working at MAF, and there can be a slight detraining until you do.
Whatever it is, give it time. Patience goes a long way with this program, and running in general. It's a long term deal.
--Jimmy
OK, I believe it can be related to the sum of a large number of factors, such as not enough sleep hours, not enough rest after the big trail run, a slight rise in temperature, the adaptation of my body. After all it's only my 2nd test, I could be having a bad day.
I'm decided to keep this MAF training for a while. I'll keep posting here my results as the months go by.
Thank you all for the replies.
This has been my experience as well. First couple weeks I saw some improvement and then weeks 3-5 were much worse than week 1! I tried blaming my HR monitor but had to ultimately accept there will be ups and downs and keep plugging away. In week 7 now and starting to see movement in the other (positive) direction .
Keep at it and good luck!!
I have read everywhere that the results would show immediately... Could it be not enough rest? I'm determined to try MAF trainning at least for 3 months, but I have to say, my morale has fallen... If anyone had similar results in the beginning please let me know.
1) 3 months is more than enough MAF'ing if you have races in mind that you'd like to improve for, you should then switch to "anaerobic phase". even if you don't get results from MAF'ing even by 3 months, the faster phase could bring great results, I suppose because the low HR training has your body recover well etc.
2) if you still don't get results within 2-3 months in this MAF phase, something's definitely wrong with the training. HR too high, HR too low, volume too high/low, etc.
+1 maybe reintroduce the carbs to your diet.
good luck!
Hi there.
5 months have passed, but I'm still disappointed with the results. I've been running all of my runs below MAF HR (the only exception was a 7 hour trail run 2 months ago). And still I have no improvements!
I suffer a lot with heat, and it's clear in the graph that in hotter days my speed slows down. But by now I think I should have had some results!
I have a marathon in 2 months, and I want to break my record (i ran my 1st last year at with an average of 152 bpm). Maybe it's time to add some speedwork / fartlek to my trainings, mantaining 1 MAF run per week, and maybe next year I'll do again "only MAF runs" for a while.
It's a pity. I really wanted to believe in this method, but I can't be convinced given my results. I even think I am getting slower, not faster...
What do you recommend?
I think the problem is your very low volume at MAF pace. Try running 6 to 7 hours per week at MAF pace for one month and then see what you're looking at on your next test. That was when I saw my breakthrough anyway. If you can do more, even better!
I run an average of 2 to 3 hours a week at MAF pace
Hi why did you choose to only run 2-3 hours a week? That's extremely low volume and will not work. Otoh, I see your calculated MAF is 146 while your marathon HR avg was 152. Sounds like your MAF is definitely *not* set too low. Maybe it's even too high, though if it's too high it's not too high by much and the volume of 2-3 hours of running is still too low for that. How fast was that marathon btw?
Also, as I previously said, if a training plan doesn't work within 2 or at most 3 months, it's definitely WRONG and must be changed, no point in trying at it any longer.
And yes if you have that marathon in 2 months you should add some paces up to slightly faster than marathon pace or up to LT if you can take that. But again, you must increase volume because it's really low for you right now unless we misunderstood and you run more than 3 hours a week.
The thing is 1) if he never ran 6-7 hours before it can be too much of a change in mileage 2) Whether you need 6-7 hours depends on what HR you pick for the aerobic HR ceiling. The 180 formula does not specify the same aerobic intensity to everyone.
E.g. I can run at HR of ~160 7 hours a week and get improvements, that's the sweet spot for HR=160. At HR=170 the sweet spot is only 5 hours. At HR=175 the sweet spot is 4 hours at most. And above that HR, it's pointless for me to do this kind of training. You get the drift right? I'll add more, at HR=150 I can't run enough to improve. It's too low and would require running insane amounts of time to get something out of it.
PS: Another tidbit of fact/experience... at HR=160 (the intensity that needs 7 hours of running to get good improvements quickly), the improvement in pace is restricted to HRs of that range, 160-ish and any HRs below 160. Though, higher zones will stabilize too, which is a good thing, just the pace does not improve for them. At HR=170 (intensity requiring 5 hours for maximal returns), the pace improvement is not so restricted, it transfers to somewhat higher zones too. But then, this might be individual. My guess however is that this is to do with muscle fiber activations
Consistently Slow
You need to open up your log! Look into our logs. Go back 2-4 years to when we started. You should have add added speed work at 12-10 weeks out with a 3 week taper. Weekly mileage needs to be 30+. What is your time goal? I'm thinking ROOKIE mistakes. I need 5 easy days to recover from a hard run before doing MAF test.
Run until the trail runs out.
SCHEDULE 2016--
The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff
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MAF= chicken or the egg
BQ because of high mileage or MAFF training
Maff allowed for high mileage by staying injure free.
First of all thanks for the quick replies.
I'll clear a little better some things:
@cmon: Why do you say my MAF=146 is probably too high? My marathon with Avg HR=152 was before I started MAF training, but was done at 5'42''/km (just a bit slower than my current MAF Avg speed). I started it with HR=140 and finished with HR=165. I finished it in 4 hours, and for me it was quite an effort! I couldn't have done it any faster (due to leg pain).
I've calculated my HR zones using the LTHR:
So... since increasing mileage is complicated...
Let's hope some anaerobic training will help improve my MAF tests.
@RuiMei79
If you can only run 2-3 times a week, forget about training exclusively at MAF HR. It will never work.
What was your HR in the marathon after about 3 miles?
For anaerobic training I would recommend long intervals of 1-2miles and tempo runs, also fartleks where you run a bit faster than in the long intervals and tempos. If you only run 3 times a week, then do the intervals or fartlek once a week, tempo run another time, and long run for the 3rd run. The fast parts in the fartlek should be no faster than 10K pace in the second half of the fartlek because you are going for a marathon. The long intervals should be around half marathon pace. And the tempo run should be marathon pace. This is assuming your other sport activity isn't done too hard. What are the other sport activities like?