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Speaking of feeding babies... (Read 748 times)

    I have a question for anyone that either has a better memory than me, or has children younger than mine. My Amish SIL recently had emergency surgery and was hospitalized for several days. During that time, she decided that either pumping or nursing was entirely too much work & lo and behold, she dried up like a desert! So, off to formula we go...powdered, incidentally. I'd try to argue the powdered point with her, but her husband is so cheap he'd rather just give the poor baby milk straight from their old Jersey cow than to buy formula, so I'd best not push it!! Anyways, she has decided that the baby is eating too often & wants to put baby cereal in his bottles so that he'll go longer between feedings. She has never fed formula or cereal, but she heard from an English friend that this works. I do recall at some point in my children's lives that I gave them baby cereal, but I have no idea when. Does anyone know when a baby is old enough for cereal? I just can't remember now that my kids are way out of this stage! I am constantly appalled by what I see the Amish feeding their babies. For example, the same SIL feeding her last baby (at 1.5-2mos of age) CHOCOLATE PUDDING!! Or letting the baby before that have honey in a bottle of water at 3 months...because he was fussy & she had just breast fed 20 minutes before, so he just needed something to tide him over?!?! Or the many Amish women that put their babies to bed with a bottle of chocolate milk from about 1yr of age on? Or another Amish woman that was feeding her 9 month old whole Starburst candies at a funeral I was at. When the little girl started gagging, I thought for sure we were going to have a 2-for-1 funeral!! I could go on & on in this department! Seriously, I realize the Amish do not have TV or radio (ok, most of them don't), but doesn't anyone take the time to educate them about anything? I know the midwife that does most of the Amish home deliveries around here. She is wonderful, incredibly intelligent & knowledgeable, has a mess of kids herself that I'm relatively certain didn't get these same things as babies. Does she not teach them? Is there no point because they won't listen? This wouldn't surprise me, as I know my MIL knows EVERYTHING about babies, as she gave birth to a trillion of them, and wouldn't take the advice of a medical doctor if someone paid her to. But what about the young mothers, you would think they would? My SIL's and their families are always shocked when I give them news such as...don't feed your newborn honey!!!! Trent & Abby, you deal with ignorance, and yes, stupidity every day (I've worked in the medical field for 14 yrs, I know you see stupidity, don't deny it!!) Wink I'm usually quite good with patients and getting them to listen. Any suggestions for dealing with the in-law's and their ancient ways? Ok, I kinda got off the track on the in-law's rant...but seriously!! But if anyone also know anything about the age for baby cereal, I'd appreciate it. My SIL asked if I'd pick up baby cereal and "whatever formula is cheapest" and drop it off to her today. Thanks for any advice! Eryn
    So do not get tired and stop trying. - Hebrews 12:3


    Needs more cowbell!

      I think there's a risk of choking on cereal in the bottle much before 5-6 months, IIRC. We tried that a few times with Dane's nighttime bottle, but he never liked it--heck, he never really ate baby cereal and went right to fruits and veggies. I don't think he ever ate rice or oatmeal, aside from things like biter biscuits and those little puffed rice snack things. Pumping is a lot of work--no one knows that better than I do. And after surgery it's especially rough (not fun after a c-section with a baby who never wanted to sleep in those early weeks, either). What was the surgery for? At least with the powdered formula the rare bacterial risk is mainly to newborn infants and those with compromised immune systems, so the little guy should be OK if she's switching to powder now. I think she's going to find that dealing with bottles is more work than simply lifting her shirt for the kid's meals, though. k

      Kirsten - aka "Auntie Kirsten"

      '14 Goals:

      • 2 olympic distance duathlons -- 6 days apart -- PR at least 1

      • 130#s (and stay there, gotdammit!)

        Eryn, On my peds rotation (which I just finished) we recommended starting (iron fortified!) rice-cereal around 5-6 months of age - spoon fed. Formula or breast-milk should continue as well. FYI: Trent works in medicine. I am just a poser. If I am lucky, in a couple years I will get to work in the field, rather than go to school in the field. My rant: we think there is one right way to do things, such as how to feed babies. I dont know how much this has been studied (I really doubt there has been much research on young infants eating chocolate pudding!), but people have been raising babies for thousands of years without all the baby books we now have. And they seem to have done a pretty good job of it. While the "normal advice" on feeding seems to be pretty solid and seems to work for most, I have to believe that there are other ways that would also work. What do other countries and cultures do? (And I mean countries like Western Europe, or Japan, or even Canada.) I know infant mortality was really high not so long ago, as was maternal mortality, my guess is that was due to infections and all that more than to choice of foods - I somehow doubt most of those deaths a thousand years ago were from choking on starburst candy. (Please note: some stuff we have done tons of research - like sleeping on the back reducing SIDS! So please take my rant with a grain of salt!)
          Nothing wrong with powdered formula ( had to stop nursing twins at 6 months due to skiing accident and I started powdered formula then) Ceral in a bottle to me is a BIG NO NO! I also didn't start cereal until 6-7 months (just my preferance)

          Your toughness is made up of equal parts persistence and experience. You don't so much outrun your opponents as outlast and outsmart them, and the toughest opponent of all is the one inside your head." - Joe Henderson

            Abby, I keep telling myself that my husband was raised that way & he grew up to be a relatively normal adult!! While I am frequently shocked at what they do, they think it is perfectly normal. Some people believe that the infant mortality rate is much higher within the Amish population. I can't say that I've done any research on this at all, and yes, I know of a significant number of Amish families that have had infant deaths, however the numbers of Amish are small in comparison to that of the "English" (the Amish term for anyone non-Amish). I'm sure that my mother fed me things that are considered "wrong" to feed a baby now. Of course, most would argue that I'm not necessarily normal either. Shocked Confused Yes, I guess it is a cultural thing. I guess it isn't any different than their inability to comprehend how and why a mother would do anything but cook, clean & raise babies. I'm certain my MIL thinks I'm the devil for having always worked & especially now that I'm at home & knows I hate it! Though I consider myself to be a liberal, open minded individual, I find myself frequently talking myself through cultural sensitivity training with my Amish in-law's! I'm not opposed to formula...my first child was never breast fed as I went back to work less than two weeks after his birth. Pumping seemed like too much work with my schedule. I did breastfeed #2 for a while, but again, I was working a ton of hours, so I supplemented with formula. I tried 4 different pumps and couldn't get an ounce after 20 minutes of pumping...in contrast to our dear, zoom-zoom who could fill a hog trough in 5 minutes!! Wink And I did powdered formula because, well, it was cheaper & didn't require refrigeration. After a few months, formula just became easier & less painful since I was working way more than I was home to breast feed. I appreciate the info on the cereal. She asked me a few questions, assuming my time working in medicine and my time as a mother might make me knowledgeable. Turns out that when your kids turn 8, you become the dumbest person in the world and know NOTHING (or so my 8 yr olds think)...which apparently really does apply to feeding babies! I don't recall putting cereal in a bottle, but I do remember spoon feeding it to them. Thanks again! Eryn
            So do not get tired and stop trying. - Hebrews 12:3


            A Dance with Monkeys

              I will read all this and respond later. But this caught my eye. ALL HONEY MAY CONTAIN BOTULISM SPORES. UNTIL YOU ARE ABOUT 12 MONTHS OLD, YOU CANNOT HANDLE BOTULISM SPORES. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD ANY BABY USER 12 MONTHS EVER EVER EVER GET HONEY. That said, the rest is probably fine. I had rice cereal in my first week of life and many babies do. But rice cereal may not at all decrease feeding frequency. Pudding is not a good idea, but it is not the end of the world. but: NO HONEY!!!


              A Dance with Monkeys

                On an unrelated note, NEVER give a baby under 12 months of age honey. None. It can kill.
                  On an unrelated note, NEVER give a baby under 12 months of age honey. None. It can kill.
                  Yes, hence my shock when I saw it happen. I've since tried to preach this point to my in-law's but with only mild success. They have told me that many Amish have been doing this for years & they have all lived. But, it only takes one bottle of honey with botulism to kill is my theory. Did I approve of the chocolate pudding? No, but it is her kid, not mine. But the honey...that made me freak!
                  So do not get tired and stop trying. - Hebrews 12:3


                  A Dance with Monkeys

                    Continuing to feed honey could be seen as grounds for removing the child from the family, depending on how active the family services department is in that area. Pudding not so much.
                      I had rice cereal in my first week of life.
                      Now we know what happened. What my parents did to screw me up remains a mystery. Wink
                        According to AAP (who I loath to quote about many things, LOL) babies should be exclusively breastfed the first 6months of life. I have 4 kids and they have all been exclusively breastfed (never owned a bottle), extended breastfed (18mo the shortest, 4yrs the longest), and we delayed solids with them, until between 8 and 10mo of age. I had 3 prerequisits for solids... 1. they had to be able to sit up by themselves. Who eats lying down? 2. the had to be able to self feed...so that pretty much eliminates the helpless infant getting food shoved in his mouth as his tongue involuntarily thrusts out the offending material. In this day an age of gluttony and food issues, I wanted my kids to develop the abilty to self monitor their food consumption. Ok, so maybe that's a little over the top, LOL. 3. they had to have their first tooth. The eruption of the first tooth triggers a change in the stomach enzymes that make digestion of mild solids possible and purposeful. I found avocado, banana and sweetpotatos to be gentle first foods and easy for them to pick up and put in their mouths. At the same time, breastmilk should be their primary source of nutrition the first year of life...everything else is just experiential, IMO. I'm not going to argue why people think infants are iron depleted and assume they need fortified cardboard cereal. LOL I think as the body goes through various degrees of homeostatsis, it will sometimes need to be lower or higher in common essentials but that is for a reason and a season. I'm not sure how babies have all been declared to be iron deficient. Then again, I think most people introduce cereal to achieve a longer time between feedings...which is a whole other rant. As for the Amish practices...eh. We all live within different sub cultures of our general culture. For instance, all of my friends and I had homebirths, used cloth diapers, breastfeed, homeschool, don't vax, etc. Even though I live in San Diego...which is very much mainstream overall. I'm guessing that you might have suggestions for your amish friend but her circle of friends' experiences and examples will have more influence on her. You could look at it this way...at least she's not a crack head living on the streets. Wink Even though I'm pretty opinionated, I realize for every "omgosh, I can't believe she does that!" there is always a worse situation out there somewhere. In those situations, I just smile, do my best to be helpful and hope they ask for my advice. Good luck!
                        Jennifer mm#1231
                          oh, and the honey! My friend's daughter got infant botulism when she was 4 months old. It was horrible to watch. The theory the dr.s gave was an unusually large amount of spores became airborn after the earthquake in No. CA in 1994(was it the Northridge quake?). The instances of botulism increased over the next year or so and this was their best guess as to the cause. Typically spores introduced to the body are eliminated before they can do harm...but with some babies, like my friend's dd who only had a bowel movement once every 4 to 5 days, it gave the spores time to...I wanna say germinate but whatever the scientific term is, that's what it did. It set up house. Scary stuff. so, yeah. no to honey.
                          Jennifer mm#1231


                          A Dance with Monkeys

                            Like she said about solid foods and breastfeeding. And while I am a pediatrician and I believe in vaccination and I vaccinate my children and encourage others to vaccinate their children, I also recognize that it is up to parents to decide whether to vaccinate their own child. And, unlike many colleagues, I will still care for unvaccinated children. BUT, I also make absolutely sure that the family is fully informed about the risks and benefits both of vaccination and of withholding vaccination, and make sure that they recognize that some vaccines are less risky and / or more important than others. A family may elect to withhold one vaccine but provide another to their children, and they need to understand that. Families also need to understand that breastfeeding does not well protect against vaccine preventable illnesses, especially after breastfeeding is discontinued. Gardisil anyone?
                              Gardisil anyone?
                              Silly Trent - dont you know if we vaccinate our kids against HPV, it is a green light to go out and have wild, unprotected sex? I mean, what are you going to do next - tell them about condoms? Roll eyes My only real issue with Gardisil is that we have once again put all responsibility for STDs on the female - yes, I know we didnt test it in boys (whose brilliant idea was that!), but where exactly do we think the girls arent getting HPV? Wouldnt it make more sense to try to eradicte it in all teens?
                                there are more problems with Gardisil...and no worries, they're looking to have boys become victims undergo similar requirements. The problem isn't how they will go about making these vaccines safe, it's how fast can they start making a buck. Then again, I'm jaded. I'm going to toss this one out there because it was the first thing I had on hand but a quick google search and you can find a whole trail of controversy. http://www.nvic.org/PressReleases/pr62706gardasil.htm MERCK'S GARDASIL VACCINE NOT PROVEN SAFE FOR LITTLE GIRLS National Vaccine Information Center Criticizes FDA for Fast Tracking Licensure Washington, D.C. - The National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) is calling on the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) to just say "no" on June 29 to recommending "universal use" of Merck's Gardasil vaccine in all pre-adolescent girls. NVIC maintains that Merck's clinical trials did not prove the human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccine designed to prevent cervical cancer and genital warts is safe to give to young girls. "Merck and the FDA have not been completely honest with the people about the pre-licensure clinical trials," said NVIC president Barbara Loe Fisher. "Merck's pre and post-licensure marketing strategy has positioned mass use of this vaccine by pre-teens as a morality play in order to avoid talking about the flawed science they used to get it licensed. This is not just about teenagers having sex, it is also about whether Gardasil has been proven safe and effective for little girls." The FDA allowed Merck to use a potentially reactive aluminum containing placebo as a control for most trial participants, rather than a non-reactive saline solution placebo.[1] A reactive placebo can artificially increase the appearance of safety of an experimental drug or vaccine in a clinical trial. Gardasil contains 225 mcg of aluminum and, although aluminum adjuvants have been used in vaccines for decades, they were never tested for safety in clinical trials. Merck and the FDA did not disclose how much aluminum was in the placebo.[2] Animal and human studies have shown that aluminum can cause nerve cell death [3] and that vaccine aluminum adjuvants can allow aluminum to enter the brain, [4 5] as well as cause inflammation at the injection site leading to chronic joint and muscle pain and fatigue. [6 7] Nearly 90 percent of Gardasil recipients and 85 percent of aluminum placebo recipients followed-up for safety reported one or more adverse events within 15 days of vaccination, particularly at the injection site.[8] Pain and swelling at injection site occurred in approximately 83 percent of Gardasil and 73 percent of aluminum placebo recipients. About 60 percent of those who got Gardasil or the aluminum placebo had systemic adverse events including headache, fever, nausea, dizziness, vomiting, diarrhea, myalgia. [9 10] Gardasil recipients had more serious adverse events such as headache, gastroenteritis, appendicitis, pelvic inflammatory disease, asthma, bronchospasm and arthritis. "Merck and the FDA do not reveal in public documents exactly how many 9 to 15 year old girls were in the clinical trials, how many of them received hepatitis B vaccine and Gardasil simultaneously, and how many of them had serious adverse events after being injected with Gardasil or the aluminum placebo. For example, if there were less than 1,000 little girls actually injected with three doses of Gardasil, it is important to know how many had serious adverse events and how long they were followed for chronic health problems, such as juvenile arthritis." According to the Merck product manufacturer insert, there was 1 case of juvenile arthritis, 2 cases of rheumatoid arthritis, 5 cases of arthritis, and 1 case of reactive arthritis out of 11,813 Gardasil recipients plus 1 case of lupus and 2 cases of arthritis out of 9,701 participants primarily receiving an aluminum containing placebo. Clinical trial investigators dismissed most of the 102 Gardasil and placebo associated serious adverse events, including 17 deaths, that occurred in the clinical trials as unrelated. "There is too little long term safety and efficacy data, especially in young girls, and too little labeling information on contraindications for the CDC to recommend Gardasil for universal use, which is a signal for states to mandate it," said Fisher. "Nobody at Merck, the CDC or FDA know if the injection of Gardasil into all pre-teen girls - especially simultaneously with hepatitis B vaccine - will make some of them more likely to develop arthritis or other inflammatory autoimmune and brain disorders as teenagers and adults. With cervical cancer causing about one percent of all cancer deaths in American women due to routine pap screening, it was inappropriate for the FDA to fast track Gardasil. It is way too early to direct all young girls to get three doses of a vaccine that has not been proven safe or effective in their age group." The National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC), founded in 1982 by parents of vaccine injured children, has been a leading critic of one-size-fits-all mass vaccination policies and the lack of basic science research into biological mechanisms and high risk factors for vaccine-induced brain and immune system dysfunction. As a member of the FDA Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee (VRBPAC), Barbara Loe Fisher urged trials include adequate safety data on pre-adolescent children and warned against fast tracking Gardasil at the November 28-29, 2001 VRBPAC meeting .[11] Full 2001 FDA Transcript: http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/cber01.htm#Vaccines & Related Biological For more information go to www.NVIC.org. -end- 1. Merck & Co., Inc. 2006. Gardasil [Quadrivalent Human Papillomavirus Types 6,11,16,18) Recombinant Vaccine] product insert. Table 6. 2. Food and Drug Administration. May 18, 2006. FDA Background Document for Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee: Gardasil HPV Quadrivalent Vaccine. 3. Kawahara M et al. 2001. Effects of aluminum on the neurotoxicty of primary cultured neurons and on the aggregation of betamyloid protein. Brain Res. Bull. 55, 211-217. 4. Redhead K. et al. 1992. Aluminum-adjuvanted vaccines transiently increase aluminum levels in murine brain tissue. Pharmacol. Toxico. 70, 278-280. 5. Sahin G. et al. 1994. Determination of aluminum levels in the kidney, liver and brain of mice treated with aluminum hydroxide. Biol. Trace. Elem. Res. 1194 Apr-May;41 (1-2):129-35. 6. Gherardi M et al. 2001. Macrophagaic myofastitis lesions assess long-term persistence of vaccine-derived aluminum hydroxide in muscle. Brain, Vol 124, No. 9, 1821-1831. 7. Shingde M eta la. 2005. Macrophagic myofastitis associated with vaccine derived aluminum. MJA, 183 (03):145-146. 8. Merck & Co. May 18, 2006. Merck briefing document for Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee: Gardasil. Table 24. 9. Merck & Co., Inc. 2006. Gardasil product insert: Serious Adverse Experiences. 10. Food and Drug Administration. May 18, 2006. FDA Background Document for Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee.: Gardasil. Table 32. 11. Food and Drug Administration. November 29, 2001. Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee. Excerpt from transcript.
                                Jennifer mm#1231
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