Hansons vs. Pfitzinger (Read 2376 times)


I'm back!

    That was the most informative, well-written post I have ever seen on RA. Thanks, Bhearn.

     

    Wow, thanks!

     

    When you go to claim your commission from the sale please remind them to make it available on Kindle.

     

    I think I read somewhere it should be ready shortly.

    jedigunnie26.2


    BQ in 2013

      Thanks for that. You made me curious enough buy the book. 

       

      When you go to claim your commission from the sale please remind them to make it available on Kindle.

       

        Hansons Pfitzinger
      Kindle  No Yes
           

       

      They mention on their website the Kindle version is in the works.

      PR's - 5K - 20:15 (2013) | 10K - 45:14 (2011)  | 13.1 - 1:34:40 (2013)  | 26.2 - 3:47:47 (2012)

       

      2013 Goals - 3000 miles (940m May'13) | sub20 5k | sub 43 10K  | sub1:35 13.1 | sub 3:15 26.2

       

      2013

      Saginaw 5k - 1/19/13 - 20:15 PR

      Chambersburg Half Marathon - 3/9/13 - 1:36:22 PR

      Frederick Half Marathon - 5/5/13 - 1:34:40 PR

       

      Up Next:

      Shippensburg Fair 5k - 7/27/13

      RnR Philadelphia Half Marathon - 9/15/13

      Philadelphia Marathon - 11/17/13

      onemile


        Planning to start Hansons Advanced in a week and a half. Thanks for the comparison/analysis of both plans.  Interesting.

          Unless they fixed things, Pftiz on a kindle, like Hudson on a kindle, is suboptimal because the tables are all wonky.

           

          Muuuuuuch prefer the hardcopy.

           

          Punchy (nice pic, subtle as always),

           

          where was this post 2 weeks and $9 ago?!  the tables are illegible on my otherwise very hip kindle paperwhite. 

           

          I can read it on my ipad though, so I'll be transcribing the 18/70 to excel anyway (unless someone already has it done and would be kind enough to PM me!!!)

             

            On a macro scale, the most striking periodization difference is that Pfitzinger begins with LT work early and transitions to VO2max work late; in Hansons plans, it's the other way around -- the first half of the cycle you have "speed" on Tuesday; the second half you have "strength" instead. This seems like a quite substantial difference in training philosophy, and is one of the things I hope the experts here will weigh in on.

             

             

            Great analysis!

             

            I'm also surprised at comparatively greater amount of uptempo work in the Hanson's program.  Intuitively, its is nice concept.  In a personal context though, I'm starting to notice though that I can handle the volume better than the uptempo work.  In other words  I'm new to 60 mpw, but it takes much less of a toll than a week with an average pace under 8min/mi (inclusive of warmup / cooldown).  Maybe its the age, but there's probably an inherent trade-off here.

             

            As far as sequencing of LT vs VO2max, I suppose there could be a difference (such as Spaniel speculated) but my guess is that it would be very subtle relative to the volume and intensity of the program in total.  Not sure how it would make a big difference.  


            Muddling through

              I've just finished reading the new Hansons Marathon Method book. As a long-time user of Pfitzinger plans, I was most interested to contrast the two approaches. (There is already a thread discussing Hansons training, but I thought it would be appropriate to break this topic out separately.)

              ...

              On a macro scale, the most striking periodization difference is that Pfitzinger begins with LT work early and transitions to VO2max work late; in Hansons plans, it's the other way around -- the first half of the cycle you have "speed" on Tuesday; the second half you have "strength" instead. This seems like a quite substantial difference in training philosophy, and is one of the things I hope the experts here will weigh in on.

              ...

              Summary

               .

              2. Pfitzinger begins with LT workouts and transitions to VO2max workouts; Hansons does the reverse.

               

              Comments and corrections appreciated.

               

              Doesn't one of the other top coaches (Canova?) also invert the order like Hansons?

              2014 Goals: Run first trail ultra, first 100K, and see what I can do in a 24-Hour race

              Julia1971


              All in for Boston

                This is very interesting.  I'm just starting my next marathon cycle and am contemplating some Pfitz tweaks.  And, the interval workouts in the last phase are definitely on my radar as something I'm not sure works for me. 

                 

                I'm certainly not an expert but one thing I'd throw out there is that Pfitz seems to recommend doing long runs as progression runs, so there's some "fast" running to them.  (Although, he doesn't seem to say they should be every time but says it depends on the purpose of that long run.  When I've followed Pfitz, I've done most to all of my long runs as progression runs).  For these progression long runs, he has the last 5 miles at 10% slower than MP which isn't "speedwork" per se but is still pretty fast particularly at the end of an 18+ mile run.

                 

                Thanks for putting it together.  It's very well done.

                Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage. - Anais Nin

                paulski66


                miscreant

                  I'm jealous of lagwagon's paperwhite.

                   

                  Excellent analysis...

                   

                   

                  I'm happy, hope you're happy too...

                  meaghansketch


                    Doesn't one of the other top coaches (Canova?) also invert the order like Hansons?

                     

                    Yes- Canova inverts the order-- short, fast work early in the training cycle and then long, MP intervals (4x6K at MP was one workout I heard mentioned) late in the training cycle.

                    Up next: ???

                      Terrific analysis.  Thank you.  

                       

                      The traditional marathon training pyramid had you build stamina and endurance as your base and then put in some speed at the end.  The idea was that once you had built that stamina and endurance, you would hold onto them while you worked on speed.  That's the traditional approach and it's what Pfitzinger advocates.  Daniels, as well as Hansons, advocates the reverse.  Well, sort of.  All of the Daniels plans from the 800-1,500 plans through the Marathon "A" plan develop speed first and then focus on stamina and endurance.  The idea is that you can hold onto your speed easier than you can hold onto stamina and endurance.  The one exception is the Daniels elite marathon plan.  It has these insanely brutal workouts throughout the duration of the plan.  Example:

                       

                      2 miles E +

                      8 miles M +

                      1 mile T +

                      4 miles M +

                      1 mile T +

                      2 miles M +

                      2 miles E

                       

                      There isn't a remote possibility I could do that kind of workout.  None.  But, it is a balanced approach working on all aspects throughout the duration of the plan.

                       

                      Here's a good article from Greg McMillan about the "speed first" approach.

                       

                      http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/time-rethink-your-marathon-training-program?page=single

                       

                      Disclaimer:  I'm a "speed first" advocate. 

                      Short term goal: 17:59 5K

                      Mid term goal:  2:54:59 marathon

                      Long term goal: To say I've been a runner half my life.  (I started running at age 45).


                      Fat butt on couch

                        Yes- Canova inverts the order-- short, fast work early in the training cycle and then long, MP intervals (4x6K at MP was one workout I heard mentioned) late in the training cycle.

                         

                        Just did 3X3mi...Love those workouts, hard in their own way but more enjoyable than real VO2 interval workouts...at least once you start getting old.

                        "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                         


                        "Journey" hater

                          That was a fantastic analysis bhearn. Thanks!

                           

                          I just finished the book as well. I followed their plan last fall for Twin Cities after doing Pfitz a couple of times. I had a great training cycle and am going to use it again for Boston in the spring with a few tweaks. Mainly adding some miles per one of their higher mileage plans from the website.

                           

                          Again, great post.


                          I'm back!

                            As for the ordering of the LT/strength vs VO2 work....

                             

                            I have to go with Hansons on this one.  Honestly I thought it was pretty accepted that with shorter races you did LT first then peaked into VO2 to prepare for races....but reversed this for the marathon and developed your speed first, then added the ability to extend that over distance via marathon-specific training.

                             

                            Good to know. FWIW I've always assumed the adaptations stimulated by VO2max workouts occur more rapidly than the LT-based adaptations, thus their placement towards the end of the program. I can always easily tell a huge difference between the first and the last VO2max workouts in a Pfitzinger plan.

                             

                            I just don't see the point in focusing on 400/800m intervals just a few weeks before you are going to do a marathon.  I believe in multi-pace training but I would not be focusing on such short/fast work so close to a goal marathon.  VO2max just isn't that vital in the marathon, making a relatively quick pace feel easy (a la strength/LT running) is.

                             

                            The last VO2max workout in Pfitz is 3x1600, 10 days before the marathon. I think this type of workout does help prepare you for the last mile or two of the marathon, at least psychologically. The first (tiny!) marathon that I won, I barely outkicked my competition in the last mile, running close to 5K pace. 

                             

                            I guess another workout that helps here is the "fast-finish" MP run. Generally when I do MP runs on the Pfitz plans (as part of a long run), I tweak them as recommended by McMillan -- last mile fast, last quarter very fast.

                             

                            As a result of these workouts, I'm generally able to pick it up over the last mile of a marathon.

                             

                            MTA:  The total mileage at MP or faster strikes a cord with me.  The more I view logs of the faster marathoners on here, as well as my own historical log, the more I believe that this is a core indicator of performance.

                             

                            MMTA:  The more I think about it the more I agree with this position.  I mean, if your race is at or faster than VO2max then that is more important, the more your race pace is related to LT the more that should be important.  MP is slower than LT.  Seems intuitive to me?

                             

                            It does seem intuitive -- principle of specificity. But the counterargument, I guess, would be that what really matters is the adaptations induced by each workout, and it's not obvious that goal race pace is ideal for inducing the optimal adaptations to run at that pace. VO2max causes certain adaptations precisely because it's VO2max, likewise LT -- what is the physiological meaning of "marathon pace"?


                            I'm back!

                              Oops -- one point I forgot to make.

                               

                              Another difference between Hansons and Pfitzinger is that Pfitzinger plans feature a fairly standard 3-week taper. Hansons plans have a 10-day taper. Really all this means is shortening the last long run, and skipping the speedwork the final week. The thinking is that it takes about a week and a half to see any benefit from a speed workout, so there's no point in throwing any in after that. And I guess they just differ from Pfitzinger and most other plans in feeling that 10 days is enough for you to toe the line rested.


                              I'm back!

                                Here's a good article from Greg McMillan about the "speed first" approach.

                                 

                                http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/time-rethink-your-marathon-training-program?page=single

                                 

                                Disclaimer:  I'm a "speed first" advocate. 

                                 

                                Great! Not sure how I haven't run across that before.