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Once-a-Day Marathon Training (Yuki Kawauchi) (Read 3057 times)

    Damn that is good Nobby.
      Damn that is good Nobby.

       +1  I feel like Nobby speaks with such authority that were he to say something that wasn't presently true the universe would take notice and correct itself.

      Whatever my lot, thou hast taught me to say, It is well, it is well with my soul.

      DLJ


         Hey Nobby,

         

        Sorry I clearly miscommunicated. Definetly not my intention to provide an argument to justify singles, I thought I made it clear that I had already accepted the basic premise that doubles were better than singles.

         

        Given that doubles are always better than singles it was purely a question of how and when to try to implement them into a training program. So a big thank-you to yourself and Spaniel this has been some really useful advice. If I could clarify for a hobby jogger such as myself:

         

        1. Doubles are always better than singles

        2. Although 60-70mpw has been used as a benchmark for adding doubles to a training program - there is really no good evidence for this and adding doubles to any basic regular training program should result in improvements.

        3. The concept of "junk" miles as described by some is not only angering but completely incorrect - all extra miles run add to an aerobic base and improve performance (which was already my gut feeling and makes physiological sense from a medical perspective but just wanted clarification from some experienced runners).

        4. Start lowish and go relatively slowish - 2-3x per week and mostly easy

        5. Try not to overdo it on the doubles but if you are over eager and are sore the next day - simply run a recovery single or back-off a "point/hard" workout and then get back into doubles

        5. ? - this is a question. The aim seems to be able to run increased mileage at a faster pace and by running this as doubles you limit the impact and improve recovery, thus facilitating persistently quicker workouts

         

        Thanks again - I'm sold.

         

        So convinced in fact that having finished 10km this morning with 5km of interval work this morning I'm am going to harden up and run my first double with 8-10km of easy running this afternoon. Now back to work.

         

        Dwane

           Hey Nobby,

           

          Sorry I clearly miscommunicated. Definetly not my intention to provide an argument to justify singles, I thought I made it clear that I had already accepted the basic premise that doubles were better than singles.

           

          Given that doubles are always better than singles it was purely a question of how and when to try to implement them into a training program. So a big thank-you to yourself and Spaniel this has been some really useful advice. If I could clarify for a hobby jogger such as myself:

           

          1. Doubles are always better than singles

          2. Although 60-70mpw has been used as a benchmark for adding doubles to a training program - there is really no good evidence for this and adding doubles to any basic regular training program should result in improvements.

          3. The concept of "junk" miles as described by some is not only angering but completely incorrect - all extra miles run add to an aerobic base and improve performance (which was already my gut feeling and makes physiological sense from a medical perspective but just wanted clarification from some experienced runners).

          4. Start lowish and go relatively slowish - 2-3x per week and mostly easy

          5. Try not to overdo it on the doubles but if you are over eager and are sore the next day - simply run a recovery single or back-off a "point/hard" workout and then get back into doubles

          5. ? - this is a question. The aim seems to be able to run increased mileage at a faster pace and by running this as doubles you limit the impact and improve recovery, thus facilitating persistently quicker workouts

           

          Thanks again - I'm sold.

           

          So convinced in fact that having finished 10km this morning with 5km of interval work this morning I'm am going to harden up and run my first double with 8-10km of easy running this afternoon. Now back to work.

           

          Dwane

          Dwane:

           

          Some of my comments weren't necessarily directed at you so that's MY part of miscommunicating, sorry!

           

          1) Yes, as far as I'm concerned...

           

          2) I'm sorry, but f%#k scientists!  It's like that article in NYT about soft-surface running too; that "scientists" had failed to find any evidence that soft-surface running helps prevent injuries.  So what "scientists" FAILED to find any benefit from junk miles...  Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.  I'm working on this piece for American Track & Field magazine--this is sort of a round-table discussion on running with Rod Dixon, Greg McMillan, Toshi Takaoka (a 2:06 guy) and myself.  In it, it seems that all of us agreed that runing over cross country greatly helps running--particularly with Toshi that he eliminated quite a bit of calf injuries once he added cross country running.  I mean, seriously, do we really need some scientist who might run 3 times a week to tell us what's good for us or not?  I know you're not suggesting that, but really...!

           

          3) It's not that it's "angering" me but here's the thing; it seems to me, those (runners) who are opposed to doing doubles or be it long run or doing 100 miles a week or whatever are the ones who never done that to compare.  Those are, mostly, the ones who DON'T WANT to do that much and seeking the evidence or justification NOT to do that.  Not too many here but tons out there especially at letsrun.com message board.  Bottom line; they just don't want to do the work.  And they always bring up some example of, well, but so-and-so had run 1:47 with no long run or doing only 20MPW or whatever.  Once Peter Snell told one of those people; "Well, if you think you can run against the best in the world with 1:47, good luck!!"  I know not everyone is seeking the opportunity to run against the best in the world.  Some people may not even care about runinng fast or running well or setting PRs.  And that's fine too.  But what annoys me is those people suggesting that doing less is better as if they know a thing or two about running.  But they haven't.  That's the thing.

           

          4) Yeah, start out modestly and easily.  Don't get too overly ambitious at first.  But, going back to (2) a bit; I wouldn't set any number to start doubling.  It's a life-style.  I think, and believe, the sooner you can develop that kind of life-style; the better.  I remember, about 7 or 8 years ago, I was at Boston marathon.  I was staying at Coach Squires house while he was at John Hancook building during the marathon weekend.  So, on Tuesday morning, I took a train to Copley just to say thanks to him.  As I came around to Copley, at about 8AM, I saw Bill Rodgers hopping out the door for a morning run.  He said he's going for an easy 5-mile.  That's a part of his daily routine.  Doesn't have to be 5-miler, doesn't have to be anything; just get a habit of getting out and run in the morning.  I would suggest any high schooler to start adding some double days.  The sooner they can get a handle on "runner's life-style" the better. 

           

          5) Lydiard called it "supplementary jogging".  The pace will be decided by itself.  If you done your "main" workout the day before, naturally, you should only do it easly.  The important thing is; the fitter you get, the more enthusiastic you'll get.  And you might need some discipliine.  Years ago I was in Boulder and Rod Dixon and I were both staying at Lorraine Moller's house.  I went for a run in the morning and I was wearing pants.  At the dinner table, Rod asked me why I wore pants (it was in the summer).  I told him my Achilles was sore and I wanted to slow myself down.  He said that's why he asked and said that he did exactly the same thing when he was competing in Europe.  He said if he ran 2-mile or 5k race the night before and adrenaline is still going through his system; it's very hard to just go out for an easy jog.  So he said he used to put pants on or sometimes full jacket and pants to slow himself down.  It should be a supplementary running; loosening exercise, warm-up and/or cool-down.  A lot of people make a mistake of running everything hard at the same effort.  He/she who can't run easy, most probably won't be able to run hard either because they are not completely recovered.  When my wife went out and did "intervals" for the first time, we went on this trail with 1/10 mile markers and ran two segments (320m) fast and two segments slow.  She could not run the fast part as fast as I could but she was actually running the recovery interval faster!  She complained and said; "But I was running the slow part faster so it's equal!"  No, I said.  Because she wasn't doing the fast part faster, the workout was not a success.  Same can be said with overall weekly training.  You run all the workout hard, that means you'll be missing out a lot of good hard workouts.

           

          I'm not quite sure what the question was but hopefully (5) sort of answered it.

           

          Good luck and, if I were you, I wouldn't quite start out with a 10k "supplementary jog".  Maybe 3k to begin with...

            With all this talk of 'doubling' I'm surprised no one has posted Malmo's Manifesto!  See point #1.  It's been posted a gazillion times on running forums but it never gets old for me.  A bit simplistic maybe but there it is, if you want to run well.

            DLJ


              Nobby,

               

              Thanks for the advice. Yeah, that answered all the questions, now all I have to do is the work and incorporate some doubles. I must say, I've never fully appreciated the potential advantages previously. Unfortunatetly, I didn't read your post till I got home - that was 8.5km later. Young, well sadly not that young, and over exuberant. Undecided I may pay for it tomorrow, which will reinforce the point, but I guess the idea is just to start doing some doubles until you find a reasonable pace and distance which isn't negatively impacting your hard runs - I'll experiment over the next few weeks. Thanks again. Much appreciated.

               

              Dwane

                5) Lydiard called it "supplementary jogging". 

                 

                That phrase describes 99% of my "training". I should probably focus more.

                  Thought would link Pfitz' take on this here. Quite a few other interesting and useful articles on his site.

                  I dont sweat. I ooze liquid awesome.


                  HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

                     

                    ... Lydiard called it "supplementary jogging"....

                     

                    That phrase describes 99% of my "training". I should probably focus more.

                     

                    I feel like this is as apt for myself as well.

                    It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.


                    Slow-smooth-fast

                      From past experience I too have paid the price for running too hard on my easy days. I think it comes down to as I start to feel fitter I then start to run quicker and quicker and start thinking, "hey, this is an easy run but I do feel good so I will just see if I can keep this pace for a while longer" Regrettably I have in the past done this once too often and got injured. I now am more sensible but do find it hard to run "easy" . I never quite know how I should feel when running easy and fear going too slow for what actual benefit it would have at such a slow pace.

                      "I've been following Eddy's improvement over the last two years on this site, and it's been pretty dang solid. Sure the weekly mileage has been up and down, but over the long haul he's getting out the door and has turned himself into quite a runner. He's only now just figuring out his potential. Consistency in running is measured in years, not weeks. And over the last couple of years, Eddy's made great strides" Jeff 14 Jan 2009

                        Kawauchi finished 18th (3rd Japanese runner) at Worlds in 2:16:11.  He said he was disappointed with his race but gratified to have helped the team win a silver medal.

                         

                        Not bad for a hobbyjogger.

                         

                        He says he'll run Fukuoka and Tokyo next winter, shooting for a 2:07.

                        Runners run.

                        zonykel


                          I think in Lore of Running, the author states that many of the elites can get a lot of benefit from the (relatively) few miles that they run in training. That's not to say that all elites would be able to do that. I think this appears to be the case with Yuki Kawauchi. He gets a lot of benefit from the (comparatively) lower mileage training that he does compared to his counterparts.

                           

                          I'm sure many people could try to duplicate Kawauchi's efforts and get lesser results. Not everybody is as genetically gifted :-)

                           

                          As a side note, "Yuki" (meaning "snow") is a girl's name. "Yuuki" (meaning "courageous" or something like that) is the boy's version.

                            I think in Lore of Running, the author states that many of the elites can get a lot of benefit from the (relatively) few miles that they run in training. That's not to say that all elites would be able to do that. I think this appears to be the case with Yuki Kawauchi. He gets a lot of benefit from the (comparatively) lower mileage training that he does compared to his counterparts.

                             

                            I'm sure many people could try to duplicate Kawauchi's efforts and get lesser results. Not everybody is as genetically gifted :-)

                             

                            As a side note, "Yuki" (meaning "snow") is a girl's name. "Yuuki" (meaning "courageous" or something like that) is the boy's version.

                            I think it is very dangerous to conclude, just because Kawauchi is training once-a-day, it may or may not mean he's running considerably less mileage.  In fact, I'm not 100% sure if he trains "only" once a day--he just happens to have a regular 8-hours-a-day job and he does not belong to a corporate team.  Also, just because someone did relatively well while holding a regular job and, most likely, train a bit less than others, does not necessarily mean he's "genetically gifted".  His attitude of trying his best while holding a regular full time job is admirable but I'm not convinced that's the best way to get his best out of himself.  In fact, Toshihiko Seko told him that if he trained like a regular corporate team athlete, he might be able to get down to 2:06.  But what would he know...

                             

                            By the way, there are many different ways to write "yuki" or "yuuki".  Some girls name with "yuki" COULD mean snow but it could also mean "happiness" or some other thing depending on which Chinese character you use.  Kawauchi's first name "Yuuki" (and you ARE correct, it's not Yuki but Yuuki) happens to mean "shining brilliantly".   

                              Has he been offered sponsorships or memberships on corporate teams? I would be a little surprised that if he hasn't. 

                              "If you have the fire, run..." -John Climacus


                              Cry havoc!

                                 +1  I feel like Nobby speaks with such authority that were he to say something that wasn't presently true the universe would take notice and correct itself.

                                 

                                I don't know how I missed this the first time around, but thanks for bumping it Eddy.

                                E.J.
                                Greater Lowell Road Runners
                                Cry havoc and let slip the dawgs of war!

                                May the road rise to meet you, may the wind be always at your back, may the sun shine warm upon your SPF30, may the rains fall soft upon your sweat-wicking hat, and until you hit the finish line may The Flying Spaghetti Monster hold you in the hollow of His Noodly Appendage.

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