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Pfitzinger's method - Should I target recommended heart rate range or speed range ? (Read 70 times)

photonslave


    Hello everyone,

    Newbie to the group. I am training for CIM (Sacramento CA) 2019 for my first BQ attempt. I just started with Pfitzinger's 18 week 55-70mi plan.

     

    For all the runs (Long, medium long, tempo etc..) , he interchangeably suggests using either a percentage of  Heart rate (HRR or MHR) , or a % of target marathon pace. (For example : long runs -> 75 to 84% of Max HR,  or 80-90% of goal marathon pace)

     

    I am just starting my training, so although my target marathon pace is 3:05, I am not there with my pace yet.  So when I try to follow the recommended Pace , my HR goes beyond the adviced range, or if i follow target HR, then the pace is way below the recommendation.

     

    My question is,  should i use the recommended Heart rate as my reference , or the target marathon pace ?

     

    Thanks for any advice Smile

    Marky_Mark_17


      I'm no expert on Pfitz, but when I got into running, I trained almost exclusively to HR for the first 4-6 months.  If I'd trained to target pace I would've ended up running too hard too often.  I still train to HR for most things other than specific interval or race pace sessions - it's the best way of ensuring that you aren't working too hard.

      5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20) | 10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) 

      HM: 1:09:41 (May-20)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

      * Net downhill course

      Last race: Southern Lakes Half Marathon, 1 May, 1:09:41 (1st place)

      Up next: Meridian Hydro Half Marathon (trail), 7 Aug

      "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

      rlopez


        I could try to run at paces equivalent to a 2:15 marathon because I really WANT that goal, and fail miserably at every run because in no way is 2:15 an achievable target in the near (or far) future. Trying to train by goal race pace has all kinds of issues. My suggestion is heart rate and or good ol' "perceived effort".

        photonslave


          I could try to run at paces equivalent to a 2:15 marathon because I really WANT that goal, and fail miserably at every run because in no way is 2:15 an achievable target in the near (or far) future. Trying to train by goal race pace has all kinds of issues. My suggestion is heart rate and or good ol' "perceived effort".

           

          Make sense, thank you Smile

          photonslave


            I'm no expert on Pfitz, but when I got into running, I trained almost exclusively to HR for the first 4-6 months.  If I'd trained to target pace I would've ended up running too hard too often.  I still train to HR for most things other than specific interval or race pace sessions - it's the best way of ensuring that you aren't working too hard.

             

            Thank you so much, makes perfect sense.

            Longboat


            On the roads again...

              Always train at the paces for your present fitness. Daniels incorporates this specifically in his plan, suggesting a reevaluation of fitness (his Vdot) after a few weeks of training. Solid training at present fitness will get you to the next level, which allows you to step up the next round. 

              On the Pfitz program, I think one of the most important things is to make the pace truly easy on recovery/easy days. As the program intensifies, it comes at you relentlessly, there's little time to recover. It's manageable if you're not tired after the easy days. If you've worn yourself out by running moderate pace or faster on those easy days, you'll be in a big hole. Been there, never again.

              Neil

              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I'm here to tell you that fast is better. I've always believed this, in spite of the trouble it's caused me. - Hunter S. Thompson

              slingrunner


                I could try to run at paces equivalent to a 2:15 marathon because I really WANT that goal, and fail miserably at every run because in no way is 2:15 an achievable target in the near (or far) future. Trying to train by goal race pace has all kinds of issues. My suggestion is heart rate and or good ol' "perceived effort".

                 

                I've run multiple marathons with pfitz's plans.  He asks you to run at marathon (goal) pace pretty early in the training cycle, and the assumption is that you are setting a reasonable goal that is based on your current level of fitness.  One thing he does not factor in is that for most of us the weather will be different for our race than during training.  If you are training in hotter weather, than the tempo runs and MP runs in particular can be very tricky... I've tended to break the tempos into two parts once they get beyond 5 miles or so if the conditions are miserable.

                 

                Personally I would focus on heart rate/effort for your harder speed workouts and recovery runs.  For long/medium long runs I'd be more comfortable with pushing the pace a little bit more to match your target marathon pace as long as you can complete the workout and recover OK.

                5k- 18:55 (2018)    10K- 39:04 (2017)    Marathon- 3:00:10 (2018)

                   

                  I've run multiple marathons with pfitz's plans.  He asks you to run at marathon (goal) pace pretty early in the training cycle, and the assumption is that you are setting a reasonable goal that is based on your current level of fitness.  One thing he does not factor in is that for most of us the weather will be different for our race than during training.  If you are training in hotter weather, than the tempo runs and MP runs in particular can be very tricky... I've tended to break the tempos into two parts once they get beyond 5 miles or so if the conditions are miserable.

                   

                  Personally I would focus on heart rate/effort for your harder speed workouts and recovery runs.  For long/medium long runs I'd be more comfortable with pushing the pace a little bit more to match your target marathon pace as long as you can complete the workout and recover OK.

                   

                  I've also run multiple marathons with Pfitz's plans and while he does indeed say to run at goal pace, he also says to do 1-2 miles of your mp run over a marked course or using gps to get the feel of marathon pace, then run the rest by perceived effort or heart rate.

                   

                  Your point about his assumption that you're setting a reasonable goal is a good one. I think Pfitz assumes a lot about his readers, including the fact that they're relatively experienced runners who aren't going set an unrealistic goal and they aren't going to take things too literally or try to stubbornly stick to a specific marathon pace on a hot day in the middle of summer when their legs are already carrying the fatigue of a prolonged marathon build up.

                   

                  In practice, during all of my best marathon cycles, my marathon pace runs always wound up being slower than the pace I wound up racing at. At first I stressed about the fact my mp runs were slower than goal mp, but after a few successful marathons I realized this was a good thing and just baked it into my training. Being well tapered, the hoopla of a marathon, having good racing weather, and just pinning a number on all add up to as much as 5 to 10 seconds per mile for a well trained runner, imo.

                   

                  In other words: when in doubt, go by effort (or heart rate as proxy for effort, if that's your thing.)

                  Runners run.