2020 Marathon Training and relevant COVID 19 discussion echo chamber (Read 700 times)

The correct answer is clearly 2:33:20 but fine, I will go for 2:32:59. I have no idea how I will cut off nearly another 3:32 from my time in 3 months of training, but screw it, at least I can't be judged for sandbagging this one.

Brew - make it official on the front page for my goal. I'm going to run this one on pure anger at the poor math skills of my fellow runners.

Brew - make it official on the front page for my goal. I'm going to run this one on pure anger at the poor math skills of my fellow runners.

Should we get matching shirts for marathon training mentalities?

Anke update because I know you're all waiting with bated breath: much less swelling today than yesterday. I can see my ankle bones on both sides and my foot is noticeably less puffed out. I still can't see definition of veins and metatarsal tendons on top like on my right foot, but it looks more like a foot and less like a sausage. Not much pain unless I try to turn my foot inward--then, yikes. I'm going to continue to rest it today but I'm very tempted to try jogging tomorrow.

JT: I don't think speed was a factor--I was running maybe 8 minute miles when this happened.

DB and Nimmals: I too have had many very minor ankle turns. I'm not sure why this one was so severe where normally I just take a few gingerly steps and keep going. Maybe my ligaments and tendons are just less resilient in my old age. Part of me wants to blame the Hoka CarbonX with its combination of stack height and stiffness. (Side note--I wouldn't recommend them. I tried them on at a race expo last fall and they felt so cool to walk around in I had my sister, who works in a running store, send me a pair, but I wouldn't buy them again.)

JMac: Congrats. I didn't *start* running until kid #2. Don't underestimate the value of running for sanity.

Re: hills: I generally agree with darkwave that hills are foundational but don't sharpen you. However, the amount of sharpening one needs is very individual. I have had very good success with doing a fairly big hill workout weekly--my main workout of each week--for an entire fall and winter and then getting race sharp with literally one or two focussed workouts. I ran my masters mile, 3000m, and lifetime 5k PR at age 44 off of basically nothing but hill training and mileage while gearing up for marathons--in each case with just one or two workouts designed to get race sharp for the distance I was racing.

My staple hill workout is not something you see in any training books but it really, really works for me. I do hill loops and try to maintain relatively even effort throughout. My favorite hill loop--and the one I do weekly once I have a base under me--is a 1 mile loop where the first 1/3 gains about 100 feet (steepest part is probably 9-10%), then it flattens out for a couple hundred yards then there's a gradual downhill (less steep than the uphill side) before a short flat section back to the base of the hill. The hill is 2 miles from my house so a very typical workout is: jog 2 miles to the base of the hill, run 6-8 times the 1-mile hill loop, jog 2 miles home. It's one continuous 10-12 mile run with the 6-8 miles of hill loops is at ~tempo "effort" but really you sneakily use every energy system on each loop. I don't kill the uphills and I don't jog the downhills--I try to maintain constant medium to hard effort. I don't know why but nothing I have found gets me as fit as fast, and these have very low injury and burnout risk compared to just about any other workout.

In the warmer months I'll mix in other types of LT workouts. But the winter, when it's dark, cold, icy and snowy and it's near impossible to do any workouts outside by pace, I find these a great replacement for all manner of LT workouts--except with the added benefit of engaging more muscle and requiring less recovery.

 

 

DB and Nimmals: I too have had many very minor ankle turns. I'm not sure why this one was so severe where normally I just take a few gingerly steps and keep going. Maybe my ligaments and tendons are just less resilient in my old age. Part of me wants to blame the Hoka CarbonX with its combination of stack height and stiffness. (Side note--I wouldn't recommend them. I tried them on at a race expo last fall and they felt so cool to walk around in I had my sister, who works in a running store, send me a pair, but I wouldn't buy them again.)

 

JMac: Congrats. I didn't *start* running until kid #2. Don't underestimate the value of running for sanity.

 

Re: hills: I generally agree with darkwave that hills are foundational but don't sharpen you. However, the amount of sharpening one needs is very individual. I have had very good success with doing a fairly big hill workout weekly--my main workout of each week--for an entire fall and winter and then getting race sharp with literally one or two focussed workouts. I ran my masters mile, 3000m, and lifetime 5k PR at age 44 off of basically nothing but hill training and mileage while gearing up for marathons--in each case with just one or two workouts designed to get race sharp for the distance I was racing.

 

My staple hill workout is not something you see in any training books but it really, really works for me. I do hill loops and try to maintain relatively even effort throughout. My favorite hill loop--and the one I do weekly once I have a base under me--is a 1 mile loop where the first 1/3 gains about 100 feet (steepest part is probably 9-10%), then it flattens out for a couple hundred yards then there's a gradual downhill (less steep than the uphill side) before a short flat section back to the base of the hill. The hill is 2 miles from my house so a very typical workout is: jog 2 miles to the base of the hill, run 6-8 times the 1-mile hill loop, jog 2 miles home. It's one continuous 10-12 mile run with the 6-8 miles of hill loops is at ~tempo "effort" but really you sneakily use every energy system on each loop. I don't kill the uphills and I don't jog the downhills--I try to maintain constant medium to hard effort. I don't know why but nothing I have found gets me as fit as fast, and these have very low injury and burnout risk compared to just about any other workout.

 

MikeyMike Glad to hear the ankle is getting better. Don't rush back and if you do use some sort of brace to be safe.

Hills - That's what I was trying to say if you do a hill loop it renders hill repititons unnecessary. A marathoner cannot always train like a 5Ker and hill repetitions are good for beginners or faster mile types or injury prone. They're also good for people wityh with bad form  or weak glutes.  Foundational, that's  how I was taught, my coach started me on hill sprints and hill run-ups as foundational training at 11 years old. When I got faster hill sprints stayed and the hill run-ups went away and it was replaced by a hill loop  (Cave hill, Unviversity hill) for training both long runs and some easy runs. That's the right idea and how it should be done. I know some stubborn goat  person will want to stick with hill repetitions, feel free to do them but if you want bang for the buck consider what we are saying.  There are many roads to Sears Target.

Hoka Carbon so I bought the first color loved them.  Then the black color and what I notice was a pain in my big toe it got worse and worse leading up to CIM so I switched to Nike  Zoom-fly fly-knits I had about 40 miles on my new pair of carbons I got them because I thought the old pair was done for but pain got worse so I abandoned the Carbon X shoe and my toe began to feel better. I did some research on the plate and it gets really thin  towards the mid foot so my big toe was not getting any dampening on long runs or workout. I agree with you here too, I would not recommend the Carbon X. I was a big fan of Hoka as they allowed me to run when running was impossible in any other brand of shoe but the foot suffers because its so low drop when you switch to racing shoes like the VFly they destroy your feet. You have all types of injury. MY GF foot is done for she stayed with the Hokas until very recently. They help until they don't.

Hill sprints vs. hill run-ups Hill sprints are strengthening and speed work. While hill repititions are foundational. I agree. They are not necessary if a marathoner incorporates hills into his training. I'd recommend hill pushes as part of a long run workout. Ss for weekly workouts I would only recommend hill repetitions for Milers to 5kers or younger youth runners. I train high school boys, in the summer they have long hill repeats on Snake and Cardiac on the infamous Sunken Meadow course Up both back down repeat again.  I would never have an adult do that they would never recover.  I did those every Thursday in the summer between (2008-2012) and my whole weekend would be shit. When I left that team and trained myself I got way faster, all our long runs on that team were on a flat. When I became self coach I added a 4 mile hill loop where I run from 8-24 miles. So I agree with Darkwave. Hill repeats aren't for everyone. I would never give to an adult but a high schooler I don't mind plying them with it. They recover before we leave the parking lot and are chasing each other around. While the adults limp to their cars and run like poop the next few day. If a marathoner incorporate hills like JMAC in Central Park into their training it renders hill repeats unnecessary. Why train fibers and muscles that are already being targeted its over kill. Hudson had these huge hill progression runs at the end of a long run workout you use to see Keifer and the rest of the Hudson group killing them on Instagram.  if I had those Colorado type hills i would do them to see if it works for me. Everything isn't for every one you should always try do a couple see if it helps or hinders.   Brad fucked up... those runs were inspiring to watch he put all his eggs in an ungrateful basket.

JMAC tell these folks if you do hill repetitions, I'm not sure but I know from Strava you do a fair dose of  hills such as Cat hill, Harlem hill and Central park West ball fields hills as part of your long runs. You continue to do those and you will get the additional 3:32 2:32 needed to get your Mug. I credit a lot of your meteoric rise to running your workouts in Central Park.  Its a tough hilly 6 mile loop, I avoid racing there, its a tough course remember it killed Ryan Shay. I was with Mr. Craig when he got the call he was telling me how many elite runners he'd met because all the runners came to his farm and trained in the summer with Ryan and his daughter. That's weekend I will never forget I met Joe Vigil for the first time he talked to me for two hours if you think I'm long winded... Joe Vigil can talk and he is so knowledgeable he is not a philosopher coach, very science based but he still made a huge impression on me.Some of the shit I say I got from Joe. Like "Never let a race define you"  and "there is no such thing as junk miles" only losers people who don't understand every run serves a purpose."

 

hill repetitions are good for beginners or faster mile types or injury prone. they are also good for people wityh bad form  or weak glutes. 

 

 

This exactly is why I do a few weeks of hills once or twice a year, and hill sprints regularly.  I tend by default to have bad running form and and to use everything except my glutes.  My few weeks of hills are basically to refresh good form by focusing on it for a few weeks, and then I use the hill sprints and drills as near-daily reminders.

If you are naturally gifted with good form, you don't need to do what I have to do

Moose Mug:  I contacted Ray for an official ruling.  The response:  "No fractions! - 33 year old needs to break 2:33."

"They're not booing, they're chanting Mooose!!!"  

Thank you to both DW and Moose for clarifying this. 2:32:59 it is (*immediately starts praying for 2011 weather*)

Hills - I do think running on rolling hilly terrain has helped me immensely. I haven't done a single hill repeat since 2016 (no joke), but I'm constantly running routes that involve constant up and down, often only 30-50 feet but enough that it does make you concentrate on getting up them and adds up over runs 2 hours+. I run those loops on both easy runs and marathon pace runs. I generally don't use them for intervals (either at LT pace or faster), just because I'm not sure they serve exactly that purpose. Rather, I think that hill running is much more useful when you're doing long runs at faster paces, either MP runs at 10-14 miles, or actual long runs of 20+.

2008 Trials - wish I was more into distance running at that point in my life, as I would have done anything to watch that race throughout Central Park.

Well I guess moose mug and Schumacher family lifetime PR are now both on for 2021 as goals. Should all line up nicely for a fall marathon. I'll turn 37 in june 2021 and need to break 2:37:01 to steal it from my Dad. Sadly both boston 2021 or Grandma's 2021 is 2 days before my 37th so I would have to go 2:35:59