2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 674 times)

cinnamon girl


    It could be called Marathon Race Training like the old days. It would be more inclusive, not so pretentious, and possibly entice some of the RA group to join 

     

    JTReeves - awards - see there you go being nice again! ❤️  yes DW should get something for getting hit by a truck. How about Most BA.  And, again I'm sorry for having disappeared that year. I felt bad about it.

     

    Mikkey - you and Rovatti are a thing?

     

    In the spirit of my sig line, what would everyone award themselves with, or what do you think your greatest success was for 2019. It doesn't have to be a race result. 

     

    I ran five races in 2019 - doesn't seem like it but I guess because none were trained for - as I've been most successful in inconsistent training for last couple of years, but I just looked at the age-grading from San Francisco Half that I decided to run the night before the race - 84.65%. That's not an easy course, and not in Nike's. I hope to improve on that in 2020.

    kcam


      As the year is drawing to a close I thought I'd give out some awards; my son's XC coach does this every year at their end of season banquet and I think it's a cool idea.

       

      Most Improved: This was easy: JMac. He came into 2019 with a 2:46:17 PR, already a fast time, and took nearly 10 min off of that. And along the way PR'd in the half by over 4 min, broke 17 for 5k, and PR'd in the 10k.

      Honorable mention: Weather. Actually Weather may even surpass JMac in a couple weeks with most improved in the marathon, as I expect he will cut over 10 min off his PR in one shot. He also PR'd in the half, 10k, and 5k this year and I believe all of those PRs are a bit faster than JMac's, so we expect sub 2:36 from you Weather 

       

      Most consistent:  Weather. And he would have this award retroactively for the past few years. Year round he has the most consistent, injury-free training, with big mileage and workouts year round. This year especially he has really reaped the results of that consistency and I do think will have a breakthrough marathon on Jan. 5.

      Honorable mention: DW. She has similarly uninterrupted and injury free training, and might have been in a tie with Weather if not for that arsehole truck driver.

       

      MVP: Nimmals. 1st in AG at Falmouth. 1st in AG at 5th Avenue Mile with a 4:25. 2nd in AG at CIM with a PR 2:30:24 at age 47. 4:14 mile. 15:49 5k (PR at age 47). No more needs to be said.

       

      Performance of the Year: This is tough and I will not pick a single one but throw up a few for debate. All of Boyd's races listed above are candidates, but I think his CIM PR result and the 4:14 mile are truly outstanding. Mikkey's 2:50:43 PR at London was another great performance. JMac's first half PR at NYC and his CIM PR were big ones. And Weather's recent sub 1:16 half PR and win was huge.

       

      Please chime in with your opinions....

       

      My opinion is that Nimmals is one outstanding runner.  That 4:14 mile is absolutely mind-blowing at 47 years of age, totally blows away that CIM and the 15:49 5K (which is pretty dam good itself)!  Well done old boy!


      Elite Jogger

        That was a debate? I just remember the statement followed by something along the lines of "I'm not going to explain stuff to people that are too dumb to understand it" in response to all who questioned it.

         

         

         

        Ok, maybe that was best entertainment....and some RA lurker even started a poll about it!  No way am I going to disagree with anything Slammin says.

        5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)


        Elite Jogger

           

           Mikkey - you and Rovatti are a thing?

           

          In the spirit of my sig line, what would everyone award themselves with, or what do you think your greatest success was for 2019. It doesn't have to be a race result. 

           

           

          Rovatti was around when I first started posting in RW back in 2008....but unfortunately we aren’t a thing. 😁

           

          2019....London I ran for charity in memory of a dear friend (not going to go into detail on this place) but it’s a race that I’ll never forget. If I’d run 44 seconds faster then that would’ve definitely been it for me.  But....I’LL BE BACK!

          5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

          weatherboy80


            Happy Holidays everyone!!

             

            Welcome Dpschumacher - hope to see you around in 2020!

             

            Brew: Nice photos!  I tend to spend to much time looking at my watch as well - LOL!

             

            MIkkey:  Agree with the best debate Smile

             

            JT:  Hope you are doing okay?  Thanks for organizing this thread and tracking for us.  Also thanks for the very kind words! I truly appreciate the words and do feel I've had a nice consistent training regimen over the last few years (approaching 4K miles for 2019), sometimes to my own detriment come race day (especially in the marathon), but I enjoy the training, process and the lifestyle overall.  I do think I need to take a page out of JMac's (yet again) training philosophy by shutting it down completely between cycles for more than a day or two after the marathon to reset things a bit.  As for his excellent CIM time,  that is really going to be a tall order to even come close to LOL!!  I'd argue his 2:36xx time blows away his recent 10K and HM times as he is likely much much faster in those shorter distances so to me that is the performance of the year given the year prior!  An honorable mention has to go to DW which is the worst luck I've ever come across before a race and she still threw down a few weeks later!  I'd also give a mention to Nimmals (4:14 mile really???) and Madison for just some blazing faster race times too! 

             

            Me: Exactly 2 weeks to go so I'm ready to start really tapering now.  Trick will be to stay away from all the cookies my wife is currently baking!  Brought the mileage down about 0.9 from my peak this past week and will cut back another 15 or so miles this coming week.  Also had 2 really solid sessions of threshold repeats on Wednesday (4X2T - 3rd of this nature in the last month plus) and then again on Saturday (3X2T) so hoping for those last minute threshold adaptions for race day.  The Saturday LR I was also able to keep an honest pace in the mid 6 range for about 5-6 miles after the quality miles as well.  Will note that both sessions were in less than ideal humidity (again).  Really one more sizable workout coming up this week on Tuesday.  Having said all that, I feel like I'm the verge of a huge PR in the marathon as I just need to take the taper seriously and get some good to decent weather conditions in two weeks! 

             

            Mon: AM: 11.20 EZ (7:45), PM 4.2 EZ (8:16 on the beach)

            Tues: 11.2 EZ + strides (8:14)

            Wed: 14.3 w/ 4E + 4X2T (@5:43) + 2.2E

            Thurs: 8.2 EZ (8:22)

            Fri: 7.1 EZ + strides (7:50)

            Sat: 17.1 w/ 3E + 3X2T (5:39) + 8E -> moderate 

            Sun: 4.2 EZ (8:08)

             

            Total: 77.5

            5K: 16:15 (3/20)  |  10K: 33:40 (4/20)  |  HM: 1:15:53 (12/19)  |  FM: 2:40:30 (1/20)

            cinnamon girl


              Weather - your crazy solid training is going to result in a crazy solid marathon! I hope race day weather will feel refreshing and be cooperative with your goals.

               

              M: 8.5 mi (7:43)
              T: 10.5 mi w/3200 (12:18), 800 easy (4 min), 8 x 400 (1:23) w/400 rec (2-2:15), 5 min easy, 800 (3:02)
              W: 13.3 mi (7:55)
              T: 7 mi (8:24)
              F: 17 mi (7:34)
              S: 40 min TM
              S: 60 min TM

              68 mi. I’m at 9 weeks of consistent training, avg 63 mpw and my legs continue to feel good. Very manageable workouts, weekly long runs, building base with patience. So things are going well into 2020 and I’ll be ready to attack my new age group with gusto. 

              Next week taking days off for my kids.

                We both learned running from the same master (GUMBO).   Unfortunately, I’m mostly a peanut-gallery poster these days.

                 

                Rovatti was around when I first started posting in RW back in 2008....but unfortunately we aren’t a thing. 😁

                 

                JMac11


                Taper Czar

                  I love the idea of the awards. I definitely agree with nimmals being the MVP. I would throw in there that he would also get a community service award like they have in many leagues given the work he does with special needs runners. I’d say as someone who runs a lot of his easy runs in the DZ, I’ll still disagree with him on the times listed, but the concept he had was spot on.

                   

                  One other award would be 2020 Prospect, where we look at someone who could have a banner year in 2020. For me, that comes down to Andres and JT. I think they both have demonstrated that their marathon PRs should be better than they are, but they’ve been unlucky with injuries or just bad weather. Hopefully Andres can set the bar high in January with Houston.

                   

                  In terms of me vs. Weather - it really comes down to whether he can execute in 2 weeks. There is no excuse for him not to go sub 2:40 unless the weather sucks. I’d argue he has a 50/50 shot at breaking my time as well. But my key advice with him has been the taper, and I’d say the last 10 days are where it will be make or break. My biggest advice Weather is this - for those last 10 days, keep those easy days easy. Nimmals put it best when he called Lazy Becky mode. I think probably your biggest chance for blowing it is the 12-13 miles 7 days out. DO NOT run that too fast. Given your fitness, something in the 7:15 range is probably perfect, but even 7:30 is okay. If you run a single mile faster than 7:00 in that run, I’m going to yell at you . I’d also highly encourage you to take the day off 2 days before. Look at the mileage nimmals runs, which is higher than yours, yet he took the day off 2 days before. I think for guys like you that run 9-10 times a week, the idea of an off day is horrifying, but I’d say that you really have both a) nothing to gain by running and b) your tapers in the past haven’t led to perfect execution.

                   

                  We can be very stubborn on this board in terms of our training. Some folks are stubborn with over-tapering, under-tapering, not resetting after cycles, running too much speed for the marathon, running too many workouts, not running enough workouts, etc. Unless you are absolutely crushing every race you run, we should all be open to new ideas. For me, my stubbornness is clear: I was too stubborn with easy day runs, but I finally learned my lesson this cycle and it made a huge difference, and I wish I realized that earlier on. I think by far the biggest stubbornness I see on this board is with the taper, and I’m glad to see that weather is really taking the advice to heart. Some people are obsessed with getting a long run in 2 weeks before, which, again, unless you have destroyed your racing and you know 100% it works for you, makes absolutely no sense to me, but that’s a different topic for a different day.

                   

                  Maybe some folks joined for a different reason, but I joined these boards to learn, and I’m shocked by how many times people will bang on the same door over and over, and wonder why their times aren’t getting better. This isn’t me getting on a soap box at all, as I said that I’ve fallen trap to that with my easy runs and paid the price every cycle with injuries. I kept saying “I’m just unlucky”, but you know what, I was just being a stubborn mule and just kept saying “but look at what the calculators say, I’m right in the range!” Calbears has called me out before for my opinions, and he was dead right: I need to be more open on what to do. That’s what my takeaway was from this year: be open to new ideas and continue the thirst of learning with this stupid sport. I hope that this thread next year, even if we combine, continues to be a place where we can challenge each other on new ideas and hold each other accountable. If you want just Kudos for everything, go over to Strava. This is the board where someone can say “why did you do XYZ” and we can have a good debate about whether it’s the correct training without getting defensive. That is, of course, unless we’re talking about watching TV while running. There is no debate, that just makes you weak 

                   

                  Still, I think the marathon taper is something that everyone should be experimenting with something new near year. Maybe that will be my new title for 2020: Taper Czar. 

                  5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                   

                  Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

                    Cinnamon: Me saying the new threadkeeper should be someone who does not disappear was not at all a dig at you; I know you had good reasons for bailing a couple years ago and we're just glad you came back!  I like the question of what was your biggest success from 2019. Your SF half was a great one; I can only dream of age-grading that high. Your training is going well and I think 2020 will be a strong year for you.

                     

                    JMac & Weather: Thanks for the shout-out. Unfortunately my injury is lingering... PT is not helping anymore and I made an appt with my regular doctor. Definitely feeling Minnesota lately . I think a spring marathon is out of the cards now. At this point I just want to get over this.

                     

                    I would add MMC to the 2020 Prospect group: he has the most potential in this thread and I think could eventually achieve an OTQ based on his college times (those equate to 2:21-2:23). But that would require injury-free and big mileage training.

                     

                    For me the best things in 2019 were:

                    -getting our 2nd dog Charlie

                    -my son making the varsity for XC this fall

                    -coming within 1 min of my PR at Athens, 5 months after double hernia surgery and in downpour conditions. I think it was a better effort than my PR race, and without the rain think it may have been close to 2:50.

                    2:52:16 (2018)

                    Nimmals


                    Stotan Disciple

                      That was a debate? I just remember the statement followed by something along the lines of "I'm not going to explain stuff to people that are too dumb to understand it" in response to all who questioned it.

                       

                      It was certainly the most entertainment we had this year. Until Brew and Cal showed up, that is.

                       

                      JT - great job keeping us organized this year! I loved the awards.

                      Did I really say that? I highly doubt and if I did I'm sure its not in those terms. I don't even talk like that. That appears to be a coherent sentence, which is not in my repertoire. When have I ever uttered a coherent sentence?? Never. So unlike my style. I'm sure even Cals would agree, because as soon as I open my mouth it's lost upon him. So using in quotes and attributing such a smart an coherent sentence to me is a disrespect to whomever said such a truthful thoughtful and poignant statement.

                      Why that's 100% truthful clear and consistent and not my style.

                      Thinking should be done first, before training begins.

                      Nimmals


                      Stotan Disciple

                         

                         

                        In terms of me vs. Weather - it really comes down to whether he can execute in 2 weeks. There is no excuse for him not to go sub 2:40 unless the weather sucks. I’d argue he has a 50/50 shot at breaking my time as well. But my key advice with him has been the taper, and I’d say the last 10 days are where it will be make or break. My biggest advice Weather is this - for those last 10 days, keep those easy days easy. Nimmals put it best when he called Lazy Becky mode. I think probably your biggest chance for blowing it is the 12-13 miles 7 days out. DO NOT run that too fast. Given your fitness, something in the 7:15 range is probably perfect, but even 7:30 is okay. If you run a single mile faster than 7:00 in that run, I’m going to yell at you . I’d also highly encourage you to take the day off 2 days before. Look at the mileage nimmals runs, which is higher than yours, yet he took the day off 2 days before. I think for guys like you that run 9-10 times a week, the idea of an off day is horrifying, but I’d say that you really have both a) nothing to gain by running and b) your tapers in the past haven’t led to perfect execution.

                         

                         

                        I have to agree with everything JMAC says. there is nothing you can do 10 days out to improve your race but they are many things you can do to fuck it up.

                         

                        Lack of sleep, overeating Over training

                        (Doing hard runs that require massive recovery etc.)

                         

                        Thread Awards

                        Most Improved: JMAC

                        MVP: - JMAC

                        Honorable Mention: - Mikkey "Moose Mug" Marathon

                        Best poster: - JTReeves\Darkwave

                        Community Spirit Award: - JTReeves one of the most encouraging and warmest people on the board.

                        Welcome Additions: Brew Runner\Cinnamon Girl

                        Most Badass: DarkWave by a long shot.

                        Most Disciplined WeatherBoy \ Darkwave

                        Most Efficiency: Nimmals (had to vote for myself here) best bang for the buck. I train slow but run fast. that efficiency.

                         

                        Those my awards.

                        Thinking should be done first, before training begins.

                        weatherboy80


                          Nimmals: great list and can't argue with any of those nominations!

                           

                          JMac & Nimmals: Can't say I disagree with anything you've said here about tapering and race day!  I have one more sizeable workout (1T  2M + 1T + 2M) tomorrow and then it will be time to get the legs ready to roll in 12 more days!  I think race day weather and then the mental barrier of embracing the suckage in the last 6-8 miles is going to be key this time around!  I don't look at it as me versus anyone on this board though.  We might have similar times at other race differences, but the course profile, weather (remember I ALWAYS seem to race on warm and humid days LOL), and just marathon distance (efficiency at M pace, fueling , etc ...) itself  can negate so many of these other fitness factors.  I do kind of wish I would have traveled to CIM this year as it would have been fun to try to keep up pace with JMac and/or others Smile

                           

                          JT: Sucks to hear about the injury sticking around Sad

                          5K: 16:15 (3/20)  |  10K: 33:40 (4/20)  |  HM: 1:15:53 (12/19)  |  FM: 2:40:30 (1/20)

                          Andres1045


                            Weatherboy - you've put up some killer training this cycle. I'm not as convinced that your downfall in the past has been the taper (I really have no idea). But whatever it was, I'm hoping you've corrected it and are ready to put up a monster time this race.

                             

                            Cinnamon - averaging 9 weeks at 63 is great stuff. Sorry if you've already mentioned this and I forgot, but do you have another marathon scheduled?

                             

                            Slammin - sorry, that was definitely not intended to be a direct quote. I didn't bother to go back and look up exactly what you said and that's why I said "something along the lines of" before I put the rest in quotation. I stand by the point that you didn't really bother to explain yourself well, but again, I found the whole thing to be hilarious. It certainly came across as mainly entertainment value when everyone that was chiming in agreed with the idea of easy/hard. It was just that you had such strict rules about easy hard that spanned an enormous range of marathon ability. When people either asked questions or called you out on it, you just shot back even harder as opposed to explaining your position.

                             

                            JMac - I'm certainly one that's open to suggestions. But I wonder why it is that you've isolated the taper as the most crucial element of a marathon cycle, and the idea of a LR two weeks out being one of the worst decisions possible. As for the LR, is it:

                             

                            a. You think it's just kind of a waste, and another effort 15 days out would give you a little bit better of a stimulus for race day so it's a wasted opportunity; or

                            b. You won't be able to recover sufficiently in the next 15 days after running 21ish miles to be ready for the marathon?

                             

                            I see you did a hard 16 miler 14 days out, with 3x2 at tempo. I'd be willing to do that (but either one I'm doing 15 days out, not 14, since I don't like to run long on Sunday), but I would think the normal 21 miler would be easier to recover from, and safer. I can't imagine either are going to make monumental shifts in your fitness at that point.

                             

                            I think most of my tapers have been 10 day tapers, with it being very steep towards the end. Only once did I feel like the taper might have affected me, and that lead to me feeling quite sluggish in the first half. But I felt great in the second half, and am convinced I ran within about 30s of my absolute best for that particular day (it's the only marathon that I negative split, running the second half something like 30s faster than the first). So I don't think the "screw up" in the taper really had much of an ultimate affect on my race (although, yes, that's the race I ran 3:00:07).

                             

                            Again, I could be way off here, but I've just never found the taper to be all that important (or I guess I don't think it's all that hard to get right, is a better way of putting it). People seem to screw up their races in the taper when they decide to do all these crazy spaced out efforts at the exact right moment leading up to their race so that they feel great. Or they add in more mileage to make sure they're not somehow letting their fitness fall of a cliff (which I find hard to imagine is a real concern). In other words, they over think the taper, thinking that it will doom the rest of the hard work they've done. Instead, they could just take it easy in the week(s) leading up to the race, and throw in some short harder efforts everyone once in a while, based on experiences they've had in the past. At this point though, it seems like you should know what you need to get your legs fresh for 26 miles. Prioritize that. If you lose a bit of fitness, or show up a bit stale, so be it.

                             

                            Thanks for the kind words, and I do really hope I'll be able to turn things around this year.  Since my last well run marathon, I've had three total bombs. The first two (Boston '17 and '18) were a direct result of my injury. I feel like I was in decent shape for both. But what I should have picked up on was that I had an upper limit of miles in a given run that I really struggled with. It wasn't a matter of fitness, but it was structural. Once I hit a certain mileage, something would happen with my form and my legs would start to just totally tighten up to the point where each step was painful. It wasn't until I realized that my psoas was the issue that this started to make more sense. I finally made that realization in summer of '18, but I didn't really put things together in time for NYC that year. So that was a total crap show, showing up for that race totally out of shape. I now have my psoas in a manageable position, and I am actually well trained now. So it's giving me a lot of hope for this next marathon.

                             

                            My week:

                            8.2 @ 8:15

                            10.3 @ 7:48

                            6 @ 7:59

                            15.1 @ 7:23 with 10E, 3@(6:09: 6:09; 5:58), 2E

                            6 @ 8:24

                            21.2 @ 7:16

                            6 @ 8:06

                            73 total

                            Upcoming races: Madrid (half) April 2020

                            weatherboy80


                              Thanks Andres!  Nice looking week yourself.  Looking quite solid for Houston!   I don't think I've had totally horrible marathon races, but think I've tended to do a bit too much quality in the last 2 weeks of my previous marathon cycles.   The sub 2:49 that I ran in Jan 2018 was actually a great effort in my eyes considering the temperatures started out in the upper 60's and soared into the 70's towards the end.  I could argue I was in 2:45 shape that year.  Last year at Boston, I certainly felt like I left some of my race in training running a full Daniels 18 week Q2 plan after a HM PR in the fall then nailing just about every workout and finally adding a bit too much in the last 10 days.  I still ran a decent 2:49, but never felt right from the start on those hills which may be something in my form and legs left in training than anything.  I think I've done a much better job this cycle at calming down my day to day EZ paces and reducing the overall length of the cycle.  My 10K and HM PR mid cycle have to be a great indicator of that, but I reckon we all have lots of room to grow and learn as well Smile

                              5K: 16:15 (3/20)  |  10K: 33:40 (4/20)  |  HM: 1:15:53 (12/19)  |  FM: 2:40:30 (1/20)

                              Andres1045


                                Thanks Andres!  Nice looking week yourself.  Looking quite solid for Houston!   I don't think I've had totally horrible marathon races, but think I've tended to do a bit too much quality in the last 2 weeks of my previous marathon cycles.   The sub 2:49 that I ran in Jan 2018 was actually a great effort in my eyes considering the temperatures started out in the upper 60's and soared into the 70's towards the end.  I could argue I was in 2:45 shape that year.  Last year at Boston, I certainly felt like I left some of my race in training running a full Daniels 18 week Q2 plan after a HM PR in the fall then nailing just about every workout and finally adding a bit too much in the last 10 days.  I still ran a decent 2:49, but never felt right from the start on those hills which may be something in my form and legs left in training than anything.  I think I've done a much better job this cycle at calming down my day to day EZ paces and reducing the overall length of the cycle.  My 10K and HM PR mid cycle have to be a great indicator of that, but I reckon we all have lots of room to grow and learn as well Smile

                                I totally agree with the above highlighted. I still remember that race and was amazed that you held on as well as you did at the end in totally crappy conditions. You suffer from the fact that we all expect so much from you based on your amazing training. Yes, the 2:49 in Boston was still a great result. But your training was off the charts. Not totally fair though. I also think that your first Boston you were in close to 2:50 shape. But the weather sucked. Then the next one you paced your friend, so naturally held back.

                                Upcoming races: Madrid (half) April 2020