Sub 1:30 Half Marathon in 2018 (Read 704 times)

Awesome week, JMAC.

SteveChCh - just use a golf ball on your calf!

This past week:

Monday - 4.5 miles @ 7:53 pace

Tuesday - 2 miles + 7x1200m @ 6:04 pace + 1 mile

Wednesday - 8 miles (slow)

Thursday - 4.5 miles @ 6:34 pace

Friday - 2 miles + 10 x 200m Hills @ 6:16 pace + 2 miles

Saturday - off

Sunday - 22 miles @ 7:29 pace

Total: 52 miles

Which leads me to this...should I shoot for a 3:15 marathon in two weeks? I rolled off a lot of 7:10 miles today until mile 18 where I decided to sort of cut back the pace.  Things started to suck around mile 22 and my pace fell to 7:50’s...so I’m pretty sure another 4 miles on pace were not going to happen. This was not a flat course either.

I'm thinking if I run steady 7:28’s in Chicago, I have a shot. Thoughts?

Bro - I guess I'll say it again: you really need to slow down on your runs. I just did 22@7:20 or so pace this weekend but I'm trying to run my marathon at 20 minutes faster than you. I'm not trying to be mean, but I don't understand why you think running 22 miles at MP is an appropriate workout. It's almost impossible for us to tell what you can run because you tend to follow the always fast model, never taking things easy. Normally anyone who could throw up a 22@7:30 should be able to go sub 3 in a marathon, so 3:15 should be a joke. But, I'm worried that you continue to leave your best performances in training. Your Monday workout was too fast for your fitness, your Tuesday workout was good, your Thursday workout was too fast/long, and I don't know why you're doing hill repeats the day after a tempo run and this close to the marathon (hill workouts are for early phases of training) Granted, maybe Mark can speak to this because he runs is stuff way faster than most training plans would prescribe, but he has some HR data to back that up. Once again, I'm saying all of this from the aspect that I think you should easily be running sub 3.

Corey - if you went from standard 10mm drop down to zero your calves should be really feeling it. I try to run everything at 4mm drop as my calves, ankles, and feet are much stronger than my knees/hips, so I can take the pressure in my lower legs. I don't know that I would ever go 0 drop but I know a lot of people love it. I tend to run with firmer shoes at shorter distances (10K and under), but my shoes aren't made anymore so I can't really give you any recommendations, sorry!

1) I feel zero soreness after my 22 miler as well. Doesn't mean your body doesn't have underlying tendon or muscle micro-tears. I would also add that countless research has shown that it takes 3-4 weeks to get any adaptation from endurance runs. Why are you running 22 miles 2 weeks before the race? There is almost no benefit of it as you won't gain any endurance in time, and there is plenty of downside. I don't know what version of Daniels you're reading, but in his third edition, he has you complete your longest run 4 weeks before the race. Also, he never has anyone running 50 miles a week doing 15 miles at MP, let alone 2 weeks before the race.

2) Everything indicates you should go sub 3 based on your training, yet you don't come close to running that. It's already too late for this cycle, but I really think you should try the slow down approach for your next one. There's clearly something that isn't translating from training to race day, and as I think the vast majority of posters on LRC said, it's because you run too fast in training. Daniels has some great stuff on this about how running faster in training provides zero benefit while just increasing the risk of injury or inability to perform on race day. It's both in his VO2 max (I pace) and LT (T pace) sections.

3) I agree that you clearly have a tendency towards shorter stuff, but running 4.5 miles @ 6:34 is not "shorter" work. That's the type of work you doing for half marathon training, which is where your race paces fall off a cliff. You can't break 1:30 in the half but are running 6:35 for 4.5 miles in training? I know you had a bad weather day during your half but once again, this seems like you're racing in training, no matter how "easy" it felt. You're obviously a ST runner and running intervals at faster paces is probably appropriate for you, but then that goes completely against why in the world you're running 22 miles at MP.

That's about all I have for you, I think you know where I stand on your running approach . I really suggest you go back and read that LRC thread you posted on. There was a lot of good advice on there and it feels like you're still ignoring it, e.g. there are 5+ posters that mentioned during more cruise intervals but you're still focusing on 1200m and 200m repeats in marathon training.

Hi all!

Sorry I didn't have the time to write yesterday after the race and today was mad... here is my quick post-race message; I have a good news and a "less good" news...

1. It was a PR, and a fairly big one considering last year I ran my PR on this race in 1h34'38'', that my previous PR was done In June (just 3 months ago) and it was 1h31'37'' and that I ran my first half marathon 5 years ago in ~1h50'

- I ran in 1h 30' 09'' --- I threw everything I had at it and I gave everything I had, but the last 3 miles or so were just too tough for me to get a sub 90...

But I am happy for the 1'30'' improvement, I guess

A RR to follow as soon as I can find a few minutes alone in front of the computer and I am not working...

hope you all started a good week

Marco

Piwi - trolololol  It's a shame you're not following me on Instagram, I had such a beautiful picture posted there last weekend (I'm sure Rune saw it). There's still time, hola at me at flaviotravelblog

Steve - have you put some thought on the root cause of why you have calf issues? Is it because they take the brunt of your weight when running due to your form?

When I did the gate analysis one of the results was that I was sort of leaning forward putting extra stress on the lower back leg muscles and tendons (calf, ankle, achilles).

Mark - non stop races, I’m jealous of you.

Jmac - big-ly week!

bro - Let’s see what race day brings you, if you are struggling with slowing paces at the longer distances, I highly recommend a conservative approach (your 3h15 target seems about right) so you stand a chance at a negative split.

What’s holding you back in the marathon? Is it muscular issues (cramps) or is it running out of energy?

Corey - take it easy with the Altra shoes. The paradigms are smooth and good for those long recovery runs, but not really for fast stuff. For those the one2.5, the escalante racer or the vanisher would be better.

 

bro - Let’s see what race day brings you, if you are struggling with slowing paces at the longer distances, I highly recommend a conservative approach (your 3h15 target seems about right) so you stand a chance at a negative split.

What’s holding you back in the marathon? Is it muscular issues (cramps) or is it running out of energy?

 

Hey...here are my splits from Sunday's 22 miler.  The first 17 were pretty comfortable and then I pulled back after that. Temperature was 64 and sunny at the start.

1.  7:44

2.  7:29

3.  7:34

4.  7:24

5.  7:25

6.  7:22

7.  7:17

8.  7:14

9.  7:07

10. 7:08

11. 7:17

12. 7:15

13. 7:12

14. 7:31

15. 7:11

16. 7:47

17. 7:29

18. 7:53

19. 8:02

20. 7:33

21. 8:03

22. 7:43

I hit a bit of a hot streak and had zero elevation climb on miles 7 through 15.  It felt very easy, but If I hold back and knock out 7:30's for those middle miles during the race I figure I will certainly have enough left over for the last 4 miles to push through hard.  Rolling 7:10 from the start will be a death march beyond mile 18.  

I'm in Corral B/Wave A, so we will be rolling.

A good excerpt for me to remember:

"Start a marathon too slowly, and you can recoup some of the time you lost by picking up the pace when you find yourself with something left in the final miles, said Stephen Seiler, a sports scientist at University of Agder in Norway, “but there is no good way to get the monkey off your back if you have gone out too hard.” The optimal way to run a fast marathon is with an even pace, so that any changes in speed come as a kick at the end."

 

Jmac yes I believe he still has his job. The story is getting alot of attention here on my facebook running groups. One of my running mates finished 2nd and 3rd to him in this marathon and Rotorua which is an Athletics NZ event so he was DQed from that. My mate has never received a 3rd place medal from Rotorua. Hes pretty chill about it.

The problem is most running events are run by businesses and dont really care so these cheats can still race. I wonder how many non elite runners have gone down this path of taking banned PEDs.

Yeah once again, I'm reminded how blessed I am to run with New York Road Runners, who implemented drug testing even for the non-professional fields in a lot of the races. Not that I'm going to be close to winning one, but still, they're good about being at the forefront of improving the sport, e.g. drug testing, banning bib sellers, and using timing mats at 5K intervals to prevent cheaters.

Again it has been awhile, so I apologize, but I promise I have been running! This last week I registered in a local 5K just for fun and to see where I was at, because I really had no idea to be honest. Leading up to the 5K, I had only a handful of workouts, including a mile repeat workout, 400m intervals, some long run pickups, and a straight 3 mile tempo run. I was just lucky the weather dropped from 95 degrees on Thursday to 55 degrees on Saturday morning! A little race report for y'all:

The first mile was mostly uphill, so I took it out conservative in a 5:56 (plus I wasn't really confident in running much faster due to my lack of training). Second mile was pretty much all downhill, which helped a lot to get me to my 5:34 2nd mile split. Third mile, I was gaining on 1st place, and finally passed him with confidence with about 1K left to go. I ended up closing my last mile in a 5:35, and finished the slightly less than 5K (3.06 miles) in 17:22. I was shooting for sub 18:00, so this race was definitely a surprise to me, and a solid confidence booster heading into my mileage buildup before the start of my HM training block in October.

Bro- I have to say, I agree wholeheartedly with Jmac on this one. Granted, I have only run one marathon myself, and my training was pretty stupid for it too (only 4 weeks). 1. I would argue that a 22 mile long run is not even necessary for marathon training. It's simply overkill. 2. You should not be running a 22 mile long run at any point when you are at 50 miles per week. A 22 mile long run is more in the range of 75 miles per week. 3. You should not be running a 22 miler only 2 weeks before a marathon, the physical benefits won't appear in time for the race, and the only purpose a long run like this serves is a mental confidence booster, and a risky one at that. This is just asking for an injury. The Thursday/Friday sequence is also questionable, there is just no need to run hills the day after a tempo type workout. Other than that, I don't see too much of a problem with the other runs. I myself run my recoveries pretty brisk (usually 7:00-7:30).

Just know that we are telling you these things not to harp on you, but because we care about your health and future races. Best of luck in Chicago in my neck of the woods!

Cfarr-  Good week! Something I like to do is alternate shoes every day, especially if I'm trying out a new one. This helps them last longer and I've heard it's also good for your feet to adapt to different types of shoes.

Marco- Great race, you are inching ever closer to that sub 1:30!

Looking back at it, I'm not sure why I tapered into a local 5K as if it were a big deal, but I did haha

Weekly Summary
Monday, Sep 17, 2018 thru Sunday, Sep 23, 2018