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Hal Higdon? (Read 1141 times)

    I'm running Richmond in the fall (November 10). This will be my third marathon (I did Baltimore in 2005 and Marine Corps in 2006, times 4:45 and 4:02, respectively). I am pretty confident I will break the 4 hour barrier (I would have at MCM, had I not gone out too fast and too hard), but I would really like to finish somewhere between 3:50 and 3:55. Anyhow, I like schedules that are already set up for me. I've heard good things about Hal Higdon's programs, so I decided to check them out --- and decided on the Intermediate II http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/Mar00intermediate.htm schedule. It looks like a good one, but doesn't include any tempo runs or speedwork. Do I just add these in as I see fit and keep the mileage the same? Do I really need to DO speedwork? All advice appreciated Smile Thanks!
    2009: BQ?
      I have used Higdon's Int. 1 and Int 2 program, as well as Pfitzinger's 55 MPW program. I usually end up adding mileage to all 3 of them. I tend to keep all long runs on the schedule unless I add a mile or two here and there- but then I adjust the weekday mileage to what I want out of the program. Should you do speed work? Depends on what your goal is. If is to break 4 hrs, you can probably do that with out speed work. If you want to run something a good bit faster, then add a day of speed work. For me, the way to run a faster marathon is #1- increase my mileage, then #2- add speed work. Have you looked at Higdon's Adv. 1 program? It has speed work on one day of each week. You can adjust the miles to get the amount of miles you want.
      http://distance-runner.blogspot.com
      Ed4


      Barefoot and happy

        I bet you can go sub four hours without any speedwork at all.
        Curious about running barefoot? Visit the new barefoot running group.
          OH went sub 3 last year without any speedwork. He did lots of slow (for him!) miles and a fair amount of marathon pace running.


          Prophet!

            i love that name ... Hal Higdon...sounds like a porn star.. Big grin people seems to really dig pfitz plans...i'm hoping to break four this year as well...i might use pfitz 55 plan... a friend of mine ran 3:25 without speedwork, few months later on the next marathon training she did speedwork and ran 3:11...so it seems to work for some people..
              actually, he does have tempo work...maybe even speed work if you look at the individual days. If you click on the week he has different instructions for each day of that particular training week. I followed his Int I for my first marathon and Int II for the one I just did in June. I just follow the distance and then I run however I feel. I did not do speed work, per se. I did add mileage in, here and there.
              Jennifer mm#1231


              shonan marathon, girl

                I think speedwork is important for a sub 4 marathon time. I went to my run clinc today at the track field with the ekiden coach a former pro 10,000m/marathon runner. We did 200m x 20, one fast 4:25 km/pace (I was in the slow bunch or runners) then one slow recovery lap. The coach said that speedwork teaches you good form. It is best to do it once a week. The longer you can maintain good form and keep your feet moving, the better your speed and race time. Speedwork strengthens your leg muscles using them to near peak max. The other reason to do speedwork is to raise your max heart rate to 90%. To do a wide range of heart rate training from 50% to 90% improves your overall endurance. I think that you are fully capable of breaking 4:00, Trishie. My other advice is to do one 30k - 32k run per month. I haven't been doing my LSD lately, but will start again soon. I love your skirt and the sexy legs from all that running!

                next race SHONAN MARATHON nov 3rd, 2012, OSAKA MARATHON nov 25th, i am aiming for nyc!

                Scout7


                CPT Curmudgeon

                  I did the Int II last year for Baltimore (my first marathon). I ran sub 3:30, and did no speed work.


                  I've got a fever...

                    Speedwork or not, you definitely need to include some goal-pace running in your long runs. 3:50 marathon is 8:47/mile pace. So I think it would be wise to run parts of your long run at this pace. He's an excerpt from a book I have called Great Workout for Popular Races by Dr. Owen Anderson. I know mikeymike's not a fan of this guy, but I think he will agree with me on this bit: (a longer excerpt from the same book can be found here)
                    While it is important to gradually work up to a 20- to 22-mile training run in preparation for a marathon, it is not necessary to turn your legs into chalk dust during training...It is far better to reserve the long run for every other weekend, or even every third weekend, and to carry out high-quality efforts on days which used to be designated for the long slogs. ... Many marathon trainees believe that 18- to 20- mile long runs prepare their bodies to handle the rigors of a full marathon, forgetting that all they have really learned to do is run a partial marathon at slower-than-goal pace. To make your long training runs (the ones you carry out every other week or every third week during your training) relevant to the race, it is important to make such efforts race-specific. This simply means including a significant chunk of miles at goal marathon pace within the overall run. You can be very progressive in this regard: If your current long run is six miles, for example, you can include three miles at goal marathon tempo (warm up with two easy miles, cruise for three miles at goal speed, and then cool down with one light mile). Over time, you can increase the length of the long run by a mile or two per workout, until you reach 22 miles – with about 10 of those miles at goal marathon speed. ... It makes sense, in fact, to complete one race simulator about four to five weeks before your marathon date. To complete the simulator, simply run 10 miles fairly easily, at a pace about 45 seconds per mile slower than goal marathon tempo, and then – without stopping – click off 10 more miles at goal marathon speed, before cooling down with two miles at 45 seconds off marathon pace. This great workout, which involves running close to half a marathon at goal race velocity while already tired, is a diagnostic one; it will reveal whether your chosen goal is too lofty or too humble. It is also great preparation for the marathon itself, since it forces you to reel off 10 goalspeed miles when your leg muscles are already in a fatigued state. Finally, the simulator improves confidence and efficiency at hoped-for marathon intensity. Don’t forget, however, that you must build up gradually to simulator status, starting with about six total miles (with three at goal pace). Bear in mind, too, that you will need ample recovery after the simulator, completing only light training during the following week and tapering your training steadily and progressively between the date of the simulator and your big meeting with “m.” As mentioned, the simulator should be completed four to five weeks before your marathon; if you squeeze the two together, you won’t be fully recovered on race day, and you will not be able to achieve your best-possible performance.
                    I guess the upshot is that you probably don't need to do a lot of speedwork for sub-4, but I think the idea of including some goal-pace running in your long runs is a sound one.

                    On your deathbed, you won't wish that you'd spent more time at the office.  But you will wish that you'd spent more time running.  Because if you had, you wouldn't be on your deathbed.

                      Jeff, I don't disagree with anything in that particular post. But to me, any statement such as, to run an X:XX marathon you need to do speedwork, or you need to do xyz workout, is just not true. The time you are aiming for is not important at all in and of itself. It's a matter of how close to your own genetic potential you are trying to get. A lot of people could run sub 4 hours off of jogging 30 miles a week and no speedwork. Others might need to run 75 miles a week and 2 big workouts. To answer Trishie's original question, I don't think you need to worry too much about speedwork or tempos. If you feel good, a tempo run now and then is a good thing, but will not make or break you in going for 3:50-3:55. Based on your previous results and trajectory, I'd say if you keep your mileage about where it's been or slightly higher, you'll break break 3:55 in your next marathon. The marathon is more about lifetime base.

                      Runners run.


                      I've got a fever...

                        Jeff, I don't disagree with anything in that particular post. But to me, any statement such as, to run an X:XX marathon you need to do speedwork, or you need to do xyz workout, is just not true.
                        Yeah, I'm with you there. MM, What is your thought on goal-pace running as part of the long run (as opposed to it being long slow distance)?

                        On your deathbed, you won't wish that you'd spent more time at the office.  But you will wish that you'd spent more time running.  Because if you had, you wouldn't be on your deathbed.

                        Scout7


                        CPT Curmudgeon

                          OK, minor point of contention here.... It's not supposed to be "Long Slow Distance". It's "Long STEADY Distance". I know, it's a seemingly minor point, but I think the implication of it is much greater. As to the idea of incorporating goal pace..... Some (including Pfitzinger) call that a "tempo run". Others call it an AT run. Either way, it can be useful, but not entirely required.


                          Kill

                            Actually Pfitz defines long runs that incorporate goal pace as Marathon Pace runs which are separate from Tempo Runs. Pfitz only has 2 of these scheduled into his 18/55 plan. Higdon, on the other hand, puts a lot more pace runs in (on Saturday - pre long run) - but they are shorter. For example, on Int II - Higdon has 11 of these in an 18 week plan.

                            Passion is a rather frightening thing because if you have passion you don't know where it will take you.

                             

                            When it’s all said and done, will you have said more than you’ve done?


                            I've got a fever...

                              It's not supposed to be "Long Slow Distance". It's "Long STEADY Distance". I know, it's a seemingly minor point, but I think the implication of it is much greater.
                              Thanks for the reminder. I've made a conscious decision to not say "long slow distance" the last few years, but sometimes it slips out. I think that some goal pace running needs to be a part of any training program at any distance; otherwise, you won't know what your goal pace feels like on race day. And if you're goal pace is faster than you ever train, you've little chance of sustaining that pace for the whole race. *descends from soapbox after depositing $0.02* Smile

                              On your deathbed, you won't wish that you'd spent more time at the office.  But you will wish that you'd spent more time running.  Because if you had, you wouldn't be on your deathbed.

                                Thanks, everyone. Lots of good advice. I'm starting to panic because my training started, technically, on Sunday ... and I did not get out of bed to get in 10 miles. The Bar Exam studying is draining me of any and all energy ... someone please just tell me that I'll be okay Confused
                                2009: BQ?
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