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47 years old, lift weights, run, lower my 5 k time (Read 230 times)

robertmary15


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    Jogger bobby


      Quick update

      8 mile run is right at 845-910 pace and heart rate consistent 133.

      20 miles per week.

      I think I will do just 1-2 more weeks of pure slow running, that gives me almost 3 months to target 5k.

      I will add a speed session replacing my midweek 5-6 miler so there will still be good miles there.

       

      I am still lifting. I don't think I can get to a DL of 300 without gaining more weight and at 175 i don't really want to gain more. Two months out from race i will drop down to squat and DL once a week and do 2 speed sessions, maybe 1 track 1 road.

       

      That 5k article linked will guide me.

       

      Thanks for the support

      Born: 1973

      Marathon PR: 3:44 (2000)

      5k PR: 22:11 (2020)

       

      Goals:

      5k - 21:42

      Mile - 6:30

      400m - 1:10

        Quick update

        8 mile run is right at 845-910 pace and heart rate consistent 133.

        20 miles per week.

        I think I will do just 1-2 more weeks of pure slow running, that gives me almost 3 months to target 5k.

        I will add a speed session replacing my midweek 5-6 miler so there will still be good miles there.

         

        I am still lifting. I don't think I can get to a DL of 300 without gaining more weight and at 175 i don't really want to gain more. Two months out from race i will drop down to squat and DL once a week and do 2 speed sessions, maybe 1 track 1 road.

         

        That 5k article linked will guide me.

         

        Thanks for the support

         

        I dunno if you powerclean ever? that may have some added running benefits over squats/DLs. or just something to add/mix in.

         

        good luck!

         

        300m- 37 sec.

        aeroncargo


          good post

          Jogger bobby


            End of year update.

             

            I was great til mid July when I took two weeks off to go camping and hiking. When I came back I ran and lifted but barely had time to get into the groove before another week off for backpacking. When I got back in late August I had a minor tweak to my right calf which took me out for a week and kept me running slow and short for another two.

             

            Then in about September I developed a cramp or something in what seems like a glute med/min. It's not piriformis, but similar. Totally killed any heavy squatting and deadlifts cut in half. Hasn't really affected my running but with all of this I basically went backward this year. All kinds of chiro and massage and stretching has not fixed the problem, super aggravating.

             

            Ran a 5k today in 24. Terrible. First mile easy, too easy at 7.47. Then went way too fast in mile 2, 7.07. Began stitching hard in mile 3 and ended up 8, and finished in 24 flat for 7.37 pace. My HR peaked at 173 which is consistent with my age 48 so i don't think I left much on the table effortwise, but clearly didn't pace correctly for best time.

             

            I did a lot of MAF training this year. Speedwork mostly amounted to 4-6 x 3-5 min at 5k place once weekly, and then the last few weeks I did a couple days of 12-16 200 repeats at 1.5-3k race pace. I'm not sure if MAF didn't work for me, just not enough speed work, just a bad day, or the injuries added up to too much catching up and not enough progressing.

             

            Because heavy lifting is out right now I'm thinking I should drop down to 3 days of lifting, do a more traditional workout for a runner, and really focus on the running this winter and spring. I do ski and hike so i still want the cross training benefits of weights.

             

            I also think all this MAF running didn't make me faster. Not sure if it actually slowed me down but before MAF I did tolerate 2-3 "hard" days of running per week without injury and did run a faster 5k.

             

            I did recently run a 400 in 1.20 and I'd say that was easy around 90% effort which seems to predict a faster 5k. I can run a mile around 6.40 which also predicts a faster 5k. So it seems something about my training or race day performance is not optimizing my outcome.

             

            Thanks if you've read this far, any thoughts would be appreciated.

            Born: 1973

            Marathon PR: 3:44 (2000)

            5k PR: 22:11 (2020)

             

            Goals:

            5k - 21:42

            Mile - 6:30

            400m - 1:10

            zebano


              Racing and pacing well is a skill. Assuming that course was flat you've interpreted those splits well. Racing the 5k  a few more times in the next couple months will help you race better.

               

              I know you dove into MAF this year but as a pet peeve, I really really hate when people use population HR averages and hence I disagree strongly with the MAF formula as it's overly conservative so that it works for most people. You really should do a Max HR test or an LTHR test if you want to train by HR. Secondly the idea of running better by really building up that aerobic base seems to work well for a lot of people, but at much higher mileage. I don't think you're getting nearly enough stimulus at 20 miles/week. one of the great selling points of running easy is that it's a small stimulus but it's relatively easy on your body so you can do a lot of it. Even better is to train like the majority of serious runners, run your traditional workouts (especially tempos, long runs and VO2) and supplement extra easy mileage on the in-between days to recover.

               

              The 400 time is fine, especially if it felt easy but translating speed from a 400 up to a 5000 requires a lot of ... aerobic fitness. Do your long runs, your tempo runs and supplement with as many easy miles as you can

              1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

              Jogger bobby


                Thank you very much for that thoughtful reply. I agree - compared to pre MAF I did fewer hard miles and that probably isn't helping my 5k speed. For example, before I would do a track workout and a tempo run workout every week, and now I just do one or the other. I run more miles (close to 25 in summer) but fewer hard miles. I could probably do a 10 mile race without too much trouble, but I'm slower.

                 

                Between lifting, other sports, and life, i don't think I can do more than 25 miles/4 days per week. To optimize 5k times, how would you split up 4 days of running?

                 

                Or let me ask the same question in a different way: if I am already doing two hard runs a week, and two easy runs, what is the value to a 5k runner in adding 25-50% more easy miles? Like going from 25 miles to 30 or 40, all easy added miles?

                Born: 1973

                Marathon PR: 3:44 (2000)

                5k PR: 22:11 (2020)

                 

                Goals:

                5k - 21:42

                Mile - 6:30

                400m - 1:10

                  Hello,

                   

                  I have been reading this thread and found a lot of similarities with what I went through when I started running and training just for 5K's four years ago. I am now 48 and my goal was to continue strength training four days a week (did not want to lose any body weight at 6'4 230lb) and for me running three days a week were all I really could do. So it became how fast can i get with the three days of training, minimal mileage and not losing any body weight. When I first started I found the MAF training but was only doing about 5 to 6 miles a week so it wasn't very useful, but at that time 147 bpm was as low as I could get my hear rate and still be considered "running". This would result in about a 11 to 12 minute mile. After two months of training I did my first 5K race at 24:27 in January 2018. Second was in July 2018 and that was at 24:19. For some reason my goal was to do a 5K race with a 6:59 mile average which was about a 21:40 time and that is what I trained for from that point forward. I have always done Tuesdays (shoulders/calves , Thursday's (legs) , Saturday's (chest / biceps), Sunday's (back / triceps) at the gym

                   

                  For running I do a long run (for me anywhere between 6 and 10 miles) on Saturday's at a medium pace, 4 mile easy run on Sunday and a 4 mile tempo run on Wednesday. This has worked for me and in September 2019 I finally did finish a 5K race at exactly 21:41 pace and that fall did three other sub seven minute mile races, Once covid hit and the gyms closed I was doing an extra easy four mile run per week with no in person races, but really did not like the extra running that much. Did a few virtual races and twice tried to break a six minute mile with no luck and ran a fast virtual 5K in December.

                   

                  This year just a lot of the same for training and finally broke a 6 minute mile (on the road) in September and did my first in-person race in almost two years in December and was really disappointed in the time, but everything went well, the weather, pacing, effort but the times just weren't there. I will probably try one more year of this plan and hope to do about 8 to 10 races in the spring and fall and see where I am at fitness wise. The running has gotten me through a real tragedy in my life and I love testing myself to see how fast I can get with consistent training. However I don't think I would continue training if the times weren't improving as I am not someone who "enjoys" running. In fact I've always told people I actually hate running but love how it feels when I stop. Over time my heart rates have really adjusted as well. the 147bpm that used to get me a 11 to 12 minute mile now is a high 8 to 9 minute mile average.

                   

                  Hope this helps in some way and that you get to your goal as well.

                   

                  Jay

                  Jogger bobby


                    Thank you that is very very helpful. Congrats on a great 5k time at a solid and strong body weight.

                     

                    I may rejigger my training as you described, which is ironically pretty close to what I used to do.

                     

                    Pre MAF I did a tempo, a track and two easy 3-4 mile runs for a total of around 15 miles per week.

                     

                    In 2021 I did a long run, two easy runs, and either tempo or track for closer to 20-25 miles (depending on season).

                     

                    Next year I will try one track, one tempo, one long, one easy, and change the weights to less Starting Strength mostly because my glute strain prevents heavy squats

                    Born: 1973

                    Marathon PR: 3:44 (2000)

                    5k PR: 22:11 (2020)

                     

                    Goals:

                    5k - 21:42

                    Mile - 6:30

                    400m - 1:10

                    berylrunner


                    Rick

                      Earlier in the thread I said run more.  That is my still my recommendation.   I say start a daily 5k streak with one longer run per week 6-8 miles.  That gets you to 25 miles per week.  Don't worry about paces.  After a few weeks add some strides and short intervals to work on turnover and stride length.  I think you will hit your 5k goal in a month or two.

                       

                      02-22  Grandmaster 50

                      05-22. Birthday miles

                      10-22  St. George Marathon 

                       

                      Jogger bobby


                        I ran 25 miles most of 2021 and i didn't get faster, i got slower.

                        Born: 1973

                        Marathon PR: 3:44 (2000)

                        5k PR: 22:11 (2020)

                         

                        Goals:

                        5k - 21:42

                        Mile - 6:30

                        400m - 1:10

                        berylrunner


                        Rick

                          Of course if you were doing the Maff method.

                           

                          02-22  Grandmaster 50

                          05-22. Birthday miles

                          10-22  St. George Marathon 

                           


                          Train SMART

                             

                             

                            Or let me ask the same question in a different way: if I am already doing two hard runs a week, and two easy runs, what is the value to a 5k runner in adding 25-50% more easy miles? Like going from 25 miles to 30 or 40, all easy added miles?

                             

                            To be a better golfer do you think it would be of more value to practice 4 hours a week or 2 hours a week? More running means more base, more mitochondria, improved max V02, improved running economy and more running skill and ability to absorb quality workouts better.

                             

                            Do you think an elite runner would ask his coach....what it be of value to drop my easy miles from 60 to 40 miles a week?

                            Run Coach. Founder of SMART Approach Training.

                            Jogger bobby


                              In soccer we train at game pace. Training at slow pace doesn't improve our game performance, if anything it builds bad neuromuscular habits. To practice skiing fast double black diamonds, it does not help me to ski blue runs slowly.

                               

                              Why is running more like golf than like soccer or skiing?

                               

                              Remember, I did more miles in 2021 than I had done in 20 years. All MAF did was had me slow down the tail half of my easy runs, which makes sense - I was probably pushing them too fast anyway. But I also learned that going from 2 hard and 2 easy runs totaling 15 miles to 1 hard, 1 long, and 2 easy runs totaling 25 miles does not make me a better 5k runner.

                               

                              If I go back to what I was going before ( I agree that the next thing to add would be some easy miles. But I don't think adding easy miles to my current regimen is going to make me faster.

                              Born: 1973

                              Marathon PR: 3:44 (2000)

                              5k PR: 22:11 (2020)

                               

                              Goals:

                              5k - 21:42

                              Mile - 6:30

                              400m - 1:10

                              darkwave


                              Mother of Cats

                                In soccer we train at game pace.

                                 

                                Running is not soccer, though soccer includes bits of running, as do many other sports.  Would you expect a diver who is trying to move over to swimming say "we don't train that way when diving, so I'm not going to train that way when focusing on swimming"?

                                 

                                Running is somewhat a skill sport (which goes to your point about neuromuscular training, and is why drills and strides are important).  But running is also a sport that is heavily dependent on things like capillarization - you accomplish that with slower running.

                                 

                                You build your aerobic engine with slower running - always running faster spreads the stress among your aerobic and anaerobic systems, which in turn limits the development of pure aerobic fitness.   Slower running forces you to use your aerobic system almost exclusively, developing it further.

                                 

                                (if you've ever lifted weights, surely you've experienced the phenomena where you have to reduce the weight lifted sometimes to ensure that you're working/developing the right muscles, instead of having other muscles that are already overdeveloped kicking in.  Same thing with running.)

                                 

                                You need that strong aerobic foundation to race well - that way you rely primarily on your aerobic engine for most of the race, sparing the anaerobic engine for the end.

                                 

                                When you don't have that well developed aerobic engine, it's ridiculously easy to go out too fast (because it feels easier to split the work between aerobic and anaerobic) and then crash when the anaerobic system hits its time limit and you have nothing left but your underdeveloped aerobic system.

                                Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                                 

                                And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

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