Forums >Racing>2018 3:20 (and beyond)
On the road in MN
FB - well I call that good running :-) higher aerobic with a bit of faster. Just enough intensity for some training stress... just short enough to feel good the next day.
Oregon - I hear ya on the beeps - glad it turned out positive many a time I get things a little mixed up or off pace. Since most of my beep-workouts have been on the treadmill lately I have them setup by HR intensity (just so HR that it shows on the workout screen) and the TM is easy to pace of course.
Mile - been a while since I tried for it... last time was a 1k Strava segment CR attempt... that I decided to continue to a mile - so pacing was less than ideal. Plus it was in the middle of something like a 10 tempo/mix/MLR. 6:04 - hope to break into the 5's someday.. soon would be nice. Maybe when I head to Florida for a little vacation soon - less winter gear should help! lol Would a treadmill count as a PR? lol Curiosity... last year's marathon training (Jan->June15), I was running most weeks with Tu/Thur Very easy with Neighbors (3.5-6mi).. and then a medium long strong run on Wednesdays. (M:Rest/bike...Fri: short sometimes with speed) In the 9->14mi range. Often with sections of tempo or alternated with MP... or just a few 4-8miles of MP.
This year - doing more miles on my easy days with neighbor (5-7mi), but we switched to M-W-F... leaving me with Tu and Thur to play with for 'workout' options. My question - is replacing that 10-14miler midweek with TWO strong workouts (Tempo, Threshold invt, Vo2 Intv, MP, MP+Surges) but not as long of a duration a good idea? Some weeks I'll hopefully have time to muster longer workouts (like this week had time in the AM to get in a strong 10mile TM workout) - followed by todays stronger EZ 7.5miler. Usually Tu / Thur has been amounting a strong 50-60min run (6-8mile with 500-1000' elevation gain) My goal last year was to work up to a 'magic 90min' run on wednesdays. Then slowly increase intensity/distance of that 90min... weird to think about doing more shorter/harder workouts (50-65')... :-/ Good ? Bad ? Supplementing 'aerobic' work: I will also be having weekly (or more) 1hr to 3+hr solid bike rides once spring gets here someday.
5k: 19:29 Oct'17 26.2: 4:03 Oct'15 3:22 Grandmas June'17 Upcoming: Grandmas Marathon June'18
Resident Millennial
haha, there's an older lady on my team who used the word "hobby jogger" to describe like, the general running community to whom we are trying to spread the word about a 5k race our team is hosting. she goes on letsrun very occasionally because her son is an emerging elite runner who recently was trying to chase word indoor standards. anyway, i almost lost it when she said hobby jogger with a straight face.
kk- bostwana!! wahoo! it's been awhile, right?
agree with the mental blocks for LR WOs. i think i'm still generally intimidated by running 20+ miles, so adding in faster stuff makes it seem insurmountable.
jim is running Napa this weekend! i looked at the website a few days ago for a minute and didn't see anything obvious that looked like tracking. FB do you know if they've have it? i think youve done that one before?
FB- "good age group mile times" expand on this. your gender/age group? define "good" - maybe give a marathon time to benchmark?
as for me, you know my gender/age and i am usually pleased when i can run a mile around 5:50. but i'm sure there are plenty of women my age who would be disappointed with that :P now that i am actually training for short things, this will probably change. there are two mile road races i am considering in late spring/early summer, so we shall see.
runbikenick- to distill your question - is trading a midweek long run on Wednesday for Tues/Thurs speedwork detrimental for marathon training? i think the answer to that is (unfortunately) very runner specific. some people have speed and need more aerobic work, so your former wednesday might be more useful for them. but then others maybe can truck along for hours but need to learn how to truck along a bit faster. what i usually do is the M/W/F easy and T/Th workouts (your new plan). when marathon training, the T workout is often pretty long (upwards of 6mi of "work" plus some more in recovery jogs), i do a longish warmup (4mi) + at least 2mi cooldown + often i do a morning shakeout (3-4mi very easy). i can end up with 14+ miles for my speedwork tuesday that way. but then you need to make sure that your M and especially W are true recovery, and keep wednesday pretty short. then for the Th workout it's shorter/faster. that could be a way to compromise, the Tues i described. but again ... maybe do your new plan, run your race, and compare the outcome/fitness to how you used to do things. (and try to separate this out from the 1,000,000 confounding variables that go into a marathon race result :P )
_________________________________________________mile, 5:26 /5k, 19:34 /10k, 41:00 /13.1, 1:31:49 /26.2, 3:12:58
i did a cool workout last night!
it was 3-4x(1200m @ current 10k pace + 1min jog/rest + 400m @ 1500m goal pace + 4min jog/rest)my 1200s were around 6:37min/mi pace and the 400s went 83-82-82-81, which is like 5:30min/mi and faster. it was fun to run fast on the 400s and then have a nice chunk of time to recover. not used to that luxurious 4min rest!
Nick: You post the question as a dilemma: Mid Long or specific workout. I see the Mid Long as the perfect place to do the specific workout:
Main argument, in a weekday, the faster section makes the run several minutes shorter, while still adding the miles.
Supporting argument: When you do a significant MP, or even HMP, you may need to add warmup and cooldown. Hence you are posting at least 9 miles... And you can reach the 14miles the day you have 8m @ MP
Daniels seems to agree with this, at least in his 2Q and 4week plans
oregon: Woo, go get that 8K PR! Thanks for your perspective on the meniscus.
Dwave: That was a nice 16-miler you ran last weekend!
rlk: That's a lot of races - about 8 more than I have on my schedule right now.
Long Runs: Was it RelentlessRon in the sub-3 forum on RWOL that ran a marathon-length LR every week during one cycle, and then absolutely kicked ass in that marathon?
Ace: Nice 1000s!
fb: I am hopeful that I am on the right track. I remember a few years ago, when you were talking a lot about gait and mechanics. I've been learning about cross-over gait from The Gait Guys, and am basically using this as an opportunity to start completely over. I think if I want to keep running long distances, I have to.
16 basketball courts, then 8 x 100m and 6 x 50m, with resistance band glute medius work in between. ALMOST a mile! Then 25 minutes on the spin cycle.
OMR: haha, but add up the distance of all of my races, and it is probably less than half of your typical race distance.
My question - is replacing that 10-14miler midweek with TWO strong workouts (Tempo, Threshold invt, Vo2 Intv, MP, MP+Surges) but not as long of a duration a good idea?
Yes and no. Certainly there's a benefit, but the time spent b/w roughly 75/80 minutes to 1:30/1:45 begins to tackle a different type of fatigue than you're getting in faster, but shorter, workouts. I'd try and do a solid MLR every other week and see how that plays out for you.
FB ~ rlk hit the nail on the head regarding mile times, what's good and for who. For 55-59 y/o males, low 5s are very good and high 5s are pretty solid; road miles are usually slower than track miles -- unless they are held in Westminster.
250 miles this month; 537 YTD.
rlk: BLAZING on those 400s!! By the way, when is that "stress test" AKA "healthcare demanded VO2 max test"?
Road Mile: 5:19 (2017), 5k: 17:09 (2021), 10k: 35:54 (2021), HM: 1:21:55 (2020), M: 2:53:18 (2021)
OMR - I would guess that RelentlessRon was running the sort of weekly mileage that would support 26-mile long runs, so blah blah correlation/causation.
RunBikeNick - Are those two days the 'workout' days in your week? Tempo-ing both days would be unusual. Maybe something faster than tempo on one of them? A common pattern is intervals (or Fartlek) on Tuesday, Tempo (or MP, whatever) on Thursday, with longish warmup and cooldown on both days. Then go long at the weekend.
Mileage: I was listening to Shalane Flanagan on the Morning Shakeout podcast yesterday. In the volume phase of her training (which is most of it) she runs 120 "Jerry Miles" per week. A "Jerry Mile" is 8 minutes for her, 7 minutes for the men that Jerry Shumaker trains. She does not wear a Garmin, but thinks her real mileage is nearer 130. Most of the hard workouts are done in the final month of her training cycle, after she comes down from altitude. She's running Botswana, BTW.
Well I had an rlk sighting on Sunday. She showed up, with partner, to our club's Couples Relay (It is what it sounds like, 2x5k, fun). They ran pretty decent times too, for that course. There was some mixup in the results in the upper age groups, where they all got lumped together, but that's fixed now. Me and J won the 100-119 age group (ahem, that's aggregate age). J was a sub, my original teammate got injured. Yes, I had a spare. GU Labs was a sponsor, and our prize was a box each of GU Stroopwafels (16 to the box). Yum.
My 5K time was so-so but about in line with recent races, and with a possible 3:20-3:25 next week at Napa. I dunno about tracking, should find out.
RLK - no doubt there are many variables to this whole mess... lol... especially when you take into account starting fitness/base... ! I am having a tough time balancing running with my running buddy 3x a week... now at a 'more than recovery' distance. So either I need to cut back with him, add a rest day, or something to balance my mix of hard - ez - medium days. Never ending balance.
jaimegu - definitely! i guess its just a matter of balancing my recovery, rest and training stress that i'm more worried about in that regards. Not sure my body is ready for a strong 13miler Tuesday... 5-7 ez Wed...and another strong 7-9 Thur... 4-6 ez Fri... 18 Sat
I suppose that is what the marathon build up works... slowly ramp up. occasional stepback week... just works!
Dad - I do think that my long tempo+MP runs last cycle were very important - I still look back on some of them and shake my head... how the heck did I knock out a 14miler at 5am on a Wednesday.... (set a HMP and 10k pr LOL!) I think at least getting back to that level of workout occasionally during the later phases will be helpful, maybe that every other week plan would be good.. Just difficult doing them before work each week - and if I try afterwork life gets crazy...
Jim - Yeah the Tuesday and Thursday "workouts" would be a mix each week (depending on fatigue/feel/time)- one higher intensity (2' to 10' w/recoveries or strong Tempo) and the other more sustained/moderate (MP to SST)
OMR - nice work!!!! Almost a mile nice to hear things are looking up!
pie man
If you don't believe D about Westminster, sub 4:45 was required for top 3 male 40+ and first over 50 male edged out Dwave for 5:08. A token amount of cash for winners as well.
Just to confuse folks even more; I know more than a couple people who believe if you run 22 miles easy, whatever that time winds up being aligns with your potential marathon race time. So that requires hypothetically running exactly the same amount of time as you'd spend running on race day. I am not sure if any of my long runs are ever 'easy' to use that method (extrapolating out to 22, I've only ever gone that far in training once and it faster than easy pace).
Jim!
11:11 3,000 (recent)
jim- ah, thanks for the reminder, looks like results are up.
gu stroopwafels!! damn. when we signed up i thought it might be a small, quiet enough race that he and i could place well/win stuff. well, then i find out my good friend and her bf are doing it too (impala/aggie duo - they won), saw a couple other fast PA people there. bay area races are tough, no matter how small! you and your new teammate crushed it - she is fast too!
i ran 20:21, bf ran 20:36. he is closing in on me. we are both racing my team's 5k in two months ... will he beat me? :| lately he's been doing speed workouts and consistent mileage (not high, but consistent) for the first time ever.
i listened to the shalane podcast too. the morning shakeout is the best email i get on tuesdays! podcast was great - mario asks all the questions we wonder about. i'd heard emily infeld reference "jerry miles" somewhere else, so it was nice to finally get an explanation!
Long Runs - Well, I'm only in my second full marathon training program right now (yes, I think I'll do the Oakland full instead of the half ), and I've stopped at 20 miles both times, with no real thoughts as to why, apart from the fact that that's what my program told me to run . Last 20-miler was this weekend, and I decided to pre-load it with some hills and then speed up a bit later on to something in the order of 5-10 seconds slower than what I think I can keep for a marathon now (I'm hoping 3:25 finish time) over the last 16 miles. I guess I now know why that run felt hard.
Ace - Nice 1000 intervals!
RLK - That's a lot of races. Once I recover from Oakland I think it would be fun to try to race in one of these track meets. Good work at the couple's relay btw!
Jim - Good luck in Napa! And good work on the couple's relay as well. Regarding your comment about times on the course, I thiught the lap around Lake Merritt was about as easy as they come?
I ended up having a decent week last week, although I was nervous earlier this week since my left glute/upper hammy was really sore after Sunday's run. It all seemed to loosen up and go away after my short easy run with the dog yesterday.
This week is kind of funky with a long-ish (12 miles) easy run tonight and intervals on Sunday, but I figured there's a reason for it so I'm following the program.
Weekly SummaryMonday, Feb 19, 2018 thru Sunday, Feb 25, 2018
5k: 20:32 (1/17) | HM: 1:34:37 (2/18) | FM: 3:31:37 (3/18)
Getting back into it
Mother of Cats
R+BN: I think there is a place for a mid-week medium long run with quality, and also a place for two shorter workouts. I would personally go with the first for a marathon cycle, and the second when focusing on shorter distances. The corollary is that I would recommend alternating between marathon cycles and shorter distance cycles.
OMR - I love the gait guys.
I need to listen to that Morning Shakeout podcast.
I love stroopwafels.
Mile times. I'm most familiar with the just over 40 set. For women over 40, anything under 5:40 is competitive, under 5:30 will often win, and under 5:15 will dominate. For guys over 40, I'd change that to 5:00, 4:40, and 4:30.
The Westminster road mile that PJ and Dad are referencing is ludicrously downhill. I ran 5:08 there, coming through the first quarter in 71 seconds. For your reference, I am not capable of running a standalone 400m in 71 seconds on a track. Really fun, but I was a mess for days after.
22 miles at my easy pace would put me at 3:18. Assuming 9:00 easy pace, which is on the fast side for my easy days. I think I'm faster than a 3:18 marathon right now...
12 miles for me today: 8 very easy to yoga (9:00), yoga, then 4 miles very easy (8:59) plus drills and strides.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
rune- ha, i thought lake merritt was quite fast too, but turns out when the whole place is under construction there are lots of obstacles and curbs to jump! plus, on sunday mornings, lots of strollers and off-leash dogs and children to dodge. :P