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Vaporfly 4% faster? (Read 224 times)


Glute Force

    Mick, I'm referring to the psychological effect of new shoes. Any brand or model.  

    I know Bill. But if the Placebo effect was true on that front then it would be visible in any shoes. But according to the NY times article its only visible in the VF. I might be making a logical mistake but I think there's got to be more than just Placebo....

      Oh, I think they did their research on the 4%, and it is very likely more efficient at marathoning than other shoes designed by trial and error (and trends). The placebo effect of any gear that is new to that particular runner would just be a bonus. Kind of like how I know for a fact that black shoes are 60% heavier than light colored shoes made of exactly the same materials. 

      55-59 age group  -  University of Oregon alumni  -  Irreverent and Annoying


      running metalhead

        I read the article too.

        Just one point: I would need to see the dataset, the type summary statistics and if they have done some modelling on that. 

        I would also not trust Strava as a reliable source of data as it may be prone to error. 

        I work at comScore (not at statistics, I'm sysadmin) and for some data sets we do use interpolation, sampling or other types of approximation. The data is usually also aggregated in some way. The margins of error are in most cases very slow, yet differences can appear during reporting depending on how the reports are put together. 

        I haven't understood if the times that are reported are official from the races themselves or come from the data the people upload.

        AND, I would never exclude the possibility that Nike could have paid for this 4% to happen.

        Thus before I waste 250 bucks in these shoes I would like to have the dataset, plug it into R Studio and see  by myself if there is any statistically significant correlation between type of shoe and running performance.

        - Egmond ( 14 januari )            :  1:41:40 (21K)
        - Vondelparkloop ( 20 januari ) :  0:58.1 (10K but did 13.44!!!)
        - Twiskemolenloop ( 4 maart )  :   1:35:19 (3th M45!)

        - Ekiden Zwolle (10K)   ( 25 maart )
        - Rotterdam Marathon ( 8 april )
        - Leiden Marathon Halve ( 27 mei )
        - Marathon Amersfoort ( 10 juni)

          The VF 4% is now my go-to for marathons.  Couple of things.... first of all, shoes are individual as we all know.  For me, these just feel incredible.  That's what matters most.  And whether or not they actually make me "faster," they make me FEEL faster. So there's that.  Also, and here's the big thing, in the late miles of marathon, my legs still feel fresh with these, and I don't feel beat up like I always did in all other lightweight marathon racing shoes.  In the past, I've frequently had lower leg or hamstring cramping issues in the late miles (which I don't get in training... I think it's a function of getting hammered in racing shoes... last few races before the VF's, I wore the Streak 6).  Since going to the VF 4%, I've had no leg cramping issues.

           

          As for durability, they do wear down pretty quickly (as most racing shoes do).  And in my experience they do start to peter out around 100-120 miles.  You can still use them for training after that point, but there is a little less spring in them after that point.  I've got about 150 miles my original pair (I'll use a new pair for fall racing), and I can tell they've lost some of the magic.

           

          For those of you that haven't tried them, but are knocking them, I really do encourage you to try to get your hands on a pair to experience.  Regardless of what you think, they really do feel very unique... like nothing I've ever run in before.


          Glute Force

            Oh, I think they did their research on the 4%, and it is very likely more efficient at marathoning than other shoes designed by trial and error (and trends). The placebo effect of any gear that is new to that particular runner would just be a bonus. Kind of like how I know for a fact that black shoes are 60% heavier than light colored shoes made of exactly the same materials. 

            read the ny times article bill. What you are saying isnt factual its just your opinion Wink


            Glute Force

              Enric: too complicated. You will never get the data set. If you are marathoning and you shell out the money for racing flats anyways, then its really just another 50-70 bucks to find out.

               

              You pay for an experience. Question is, are you willing to put in a thousand miles in preparation, with a minimum of two pairs of training shoes, hundreds of bucks for gels and the marathon registration fee and then obsess over a difference in price for racing shoes that is less than $100? Unreasonable in my opinion.

                why would I read an article when I can just look at the pictures?

                55-59 age group  -  University of Oregon alumni  -  Irreverent and Annoying

                JDehlinger


                  I also read this article and was a bit intrigued, but it looks like these shoes are nearly impossible to get a hold of...

                  Ben Obert


                    What!?! Why have you simple fools scared away sportjester, a deity and inventor of literally everything, after only one of his great words of unadulterated wisdom? 


                    Booyah!

                      So i scored a pair of the new VF 2nd edition this week from the limited release.

                      I ran to the end of my court and back just to test, they are unlike anything i have every run in.There is a definite "spring" effect. They are unbelievably light.They actually feel a little awkward to walk in. It feels like you are running on a pillow so i could see these saving your legs at the end of a race. I will probably do a few short training runs to get used to them and only use them for races, since it has been noted

                      they don't seem to last long (the sole is very thin so i can see this). Since i am i heavy heel-striker i applied some shoe goo to try to give them a little more durability. I am just a mid-pack average joe runner so we'll see if they actually help folk like me. 

                      PR's:

                      5K- 20:15 (2017)   HM- 1:39:38 (2012)    FM- 3:26:53 (2016)

                        I tried to run a marathon in mine today and am wondering if a 5k, a 15k and one workout was enough to get used to them?

                         

                        Was cruising through the half right on pace and then pretty much locked up both hip flexors at mile 17 and dropped.

                         

                        Was it for lack of doing a true long run in them? Hard to say. Just something I will need to factor in to my analysis of today's effort.

                        And you can quote me as saying I was mis-quoted. Groucho Marx

                         

                        Rob

                          HermosaBoy, I got updates of your race on the Masters forum. That sucks you had to drop! Normally I'd think that what you did should be fine to get used to them, but maybe the real test is a couple 20-25k runs. That's the rub with these shoes, they're so expensive you don't want to wear them out by using them for workouts, but unless you wear them for a few long runs you don't know what they're going to do to you. Maybe running 10-15k in other shoes and then switching into them for 10k while you're fatigued might be the way to do it, but then you don't have the cumulative effect of wearing them for the full 25k...

                          55-59 age group  -  University of Oregon alumni  -  Irreverent and Annoying

                            HermosaBoy, I got updates of your race on the Masters forum. That sucks you had to drop! Normally I'd think that what you did should be fine to get used to them, but maybe the real test is a couple 20-25k runs. That's the rub with these shoes, they're so expensive you don't want to wear them out by using them for workouts, but unless you wear them for a few long runs you don't know what they're going to do to you. Maybe running 10-15k in other shoes and then switching into them for 10k while you're fatigued might be the way to do it, but then you don't have the cumulative effect of wearing them for the full 25k...

                             

                            I am wondering if is just the way that you run a bit differently in them? Because of the "geometry" of the soles, etc. your stride is a bit different which led to my problems? I don't know -- I am just a trial of one...

                            And you can quote me as saying I was mis-quoted. Groucho Marx

                             

                            Rob

                              Sometimes new shoes will make my legs sore until I get used to them, cuz using different small muscle groups more or something, so it's quite possible that the shoes done did it. I wonder if the Pegusus turbo has a similar ride? Maybe train in those and race in the 4%.

                              55-59 age group  -  University of Oregon alumni  -  Irreverent and Annoying


                              Booyah!

                                After Hermosa's issue, now i'm wondering if i should do at least 1 long run in them.

                                Like Surly said, i don't want to put normal training miles on them, but it may be in my best interest.

                                I was planning on doing a few 7-8 milers  then just use them for my next marathon.

                                PR's:

                                5K- 20:15 (2017)   HM- 1:39:38 (2012)    FM- 3:26:53 (2016)

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