2020 Marathon Training and relevant COVID 19 discussion echo chamber (Read 674 times)

DavePNW


     

    I am just trying to say that running easy 100+ miles week after week is not as easy as Mikkey is trying to say. Running 70-75 mpw with workouts is not easy too but 100+ week after week will have an accumulated effect of fatigue much harder than 70-75 mpw with workouts week after week. At least that was my experience - so, it maybe an anecdotal evidence.

     

    Yes I was agreeing that I certainly don’t want to do another hundo this week, much less multiple weeks. It’s uncharted territory for me and i am sure there is accumulated damage involved. 
    I think Mikkey’s comment on my post was more specifically referring to a single week. 
    Certainly multiple weeks of either will have an accumulated effect. I only know that for me, marathon training involves a string of 70-75 w/workouts taking me to the edge of where it feels like my body is going to break apart, just in time for taper. No doubt consecutive 100s would have the same effect. 
    Feel free to continue negotiating the correct numbers between 70 & 100, but I’m sure that varies person to person. 

    Dave


    Elite Jogger

       

      Run 100+ miles for more than 4 weeks in a row - then we will talk...

       

      Tbh, I’ve never had any desire to run 100+ easy/recovery miles for more than 4 weeks...simply because I wouldn’t enjoy that type of training rather than not being capable of the volume. My highest training cycle was 90mpw average (singles) over 12 weeks which included a lot of long tempos and some speedwork, so I’ve got some experience of running higher mileage for more than 4 weeks.    Btw, this isn’t a criticism of your training and I’m just giving my only personal opinion, everyone is different and I generally recover quickly from easy long runs.

      5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

      CalBears


        Tbh, I’ve never had any desire to run 100+ easy/recovery miles for more than 4 weeks...simply because I wouldn’t enjoy that type of training rather than not being capable of the volume. My highest training cycle was 90mpw average (singles) over 12 weeks which included a lot of long tempos and some speedwork, so I’ve got some experience of running higher mileage for more than 4 weeks.    Btw, this isn’t a criticism of your training and I’m just giving my only personal opinion, everyone is different and I generally recover quickly from easy long runs.

         

        Mikkey - I won't understand any criticism until you clearly call my training idiotic Smile With my level of "your" native language I won't be able to "read" all the nuances. But even if you call it idiotic, it still won't stop me from continuing - I just want to explore it further - was reading and re-reading Hadd just to finally realize he is talking about ~20 weeks base and I am maybe on week 5? So, it's freakingly long way to make any early conclusions out of 4+ weeks of easy mileage. I am just afraid of drifting away from the Hadd's recommendation and making some stupid mistakes like trying to do more than needed - after all you all are right - it can be boring at some point and some impulses might play some destructive role.

         

        Plus, as you mentioned before, the training Hadd was writing for that Joe guy, involved quite some running at 155-160 HR, which is just below LT (and I ran all of my last 4 weeks mileage at 130-135). I still need to figure out my Max HR - for some reason I think my MAX is 193 (just like the case with Joe in Hadd's paper) but Hadd is talking about 175-177 HR for Joe to run a marathon and I would probably die if I had ran at that HR any of my marathons. My avg marathon HR was 165-168 and that makes me think that I should use something like 183-185 as my MAX HR (I had 181 HR last year running last mile of my HM race).

        paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

        weatherboy80


          Just wanted to report back in that I ran a successful 10K PR (time trial) on Saturday in about 33:43 based on the ~6.25 miles that my watch gave me in the loop I used.  After the nice 5K time trial a few weeks ago decided to see what I could do in the 10K.   Ran this one solo and it was about 70 degrees when I started so nowhere near ideal, but figured I was in good enough shape to at least break my 34:30 10K PB from the fall or even if having a really good day try to break 34.  Started the first mile too quickly going out in 5:19, but figured I would either die a painful death or try to hold on and have a really good day.  Felt really awful for miles 1-3 where I felt like I was fading but just slowed a bit to about 5:26 (where I should have been from the start) then hit a decent groove at least feeling wise until at mile 4.  Mile 4-5 again felt like I was slowing down and I thought about stopping a few times as the solitude was tough, but just told myself as I rounded the loop to just get to that final mile and I can finish this.  Clicked off mile 5 at 5:27 and was pleasantly surprised that sub 34 was well within reach!  Last mile gave it what I had left in the tank and clocked a 5:21 split and then just pushed the last quarter of a mile closing in on upper 4 pace to finish out my final kick.  Really tough here as I would usually have someone to chase or a finish line to visualize to speed up.  Ran past the 10K mark on my watch just to account for any possible GPS error and it still gave me a 33:43 for the duration.  Strava did give me a 33:30 10K, which is probably an underestimate,  but I'll take the clear sub 34 from where I stand irregardless.

           

          Thinking this is an excellent way to cap off my "race" season given the circumstances of no racing.  Also have to be encouraged that I in no way really tapered into this effort so there potential for improvements.  Only sense of disappointment this season was the sub 75 HM effort where I was directed off course about 6 weeks ago.  Still can claim virtual sub 75 fitness given the world right now Wink  Might be interested in a 1 mile time trial soon, but thinking my longer race efforts are likely done until the late summer or next fall as the heat is in full force here again.   Probably time to switch back over to mostly EZ efforts for a bit!

          5K: 16:15 (3/20)  |  10K: 33:40 (4/20)  |  HM: 1:15:53 (12/19)  |  FM: 2:40:30 (1/20)


          Elite Jogger

             

            Mikkey - I won't understand any criticism until you clearly call my training idiotic Smile With my level of "your" native language I won't be able to "read" all the nuances. But even if you call it idiotic, it still won't stop me from continuing - I just want to explore it further - was reading and re-reading Hadd just to finally realize he is talking about ~20 weeks base and I am maybe on week 5? So, it's freakingly long way to make any early conclusions out of 4+ weeks of easy mileage. I am just afraid of drifting away from the Hadd's recommendation and making some stupid mistakes like trying to do more than needed - after all you all are right - it can be boring at some point and some impulses might play some destructive role.

             

            Plus, as you mentioned before, the training Hadd was writing for that Joe guy, involved quite some running at 155-160 HR, which is just below LT (and I ran all of my last 4 weeks mileage at 130-135). I still need to figure out my Max HR - for some reason I think my MAX is 193 (just like the case with Joe in Hadd's paper) but Hadd is talking about 175-177 HR for Joe to run a marathon and I would probably die if I had ran at that HR any of my marathons. My avg marathon HR was 165-168 and that makes me think that I should use something like 183-185 as my MAX HR (I had 181 HR last year running last mile of my HM race).

            You’re the perfect Hadd candidate as mostly easy mileage works for you AND it keeps you injury free....my point was that you inspired Dave to go for 100 and he realised that it wasn’t that physically difficult ‘my legs held up surprisingly well’.  It’s the mental side that can get to some runners...easy pace starts to get slower and then its...am I actually losing fitness?  Anyway, I’ll be curious to see how your June marathon TT pans out. 👍

            5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

            JMac11


            Taper Czar

              20 weeks of 100 miles a week only easy running? I'd rather sit here and listen to you guys argue for 20 straight weeks than have to go through that.

               

              weather - I'm shocked you didn't taper into it given you knew it may be a cap for your spring season. I think once again you continue to demonstrate you are a better 5K/10K runners than most folks on here, which is surprising given your endurance.

               

              Boston - I'd like to note that the current forecast for Boston for next Monday is 52 and partly cloudy at 10 am. Let's see if that holds up, because if it does, the curse of Boston weather continues.

              5K: 16:42 (9/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

               

              Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

              Marky_Mark_17


                Weather - damn, great job hitting that in a time trial, congratulations! If there has been one running upside to the current health crisis it's been seeing the likes of JMac and you hit PB's in time trials which takes a lot more mental toughness than doing it in a race environment.

                 

                FWIW, when I ran 33:15 at NZ Road Race 10k Champs last year, that was about 2 weeks after running a 1:12 half on a course which had a couple of nasty hills - I'd say you can comfortably claim that virtual sub-75!!

                5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20) | 10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) 

                HM: 1:10:46 (Nov-19) | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                Last race: Wairarapa Country Marathon, 11 Oct, 2:41:41 (PB)

                Up next: Mt. Maunganui Half Marathon, 28 Nov (I HOPE!)

                "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                CalBears


                  20 weeks of 100 miles a week only easy running? I'd rather sit here and listen to you guys argue for 20 straight weeks than have to go through that.

                   

                   

                  Now, after you mentioned that, I am motivated to go through that so much more Smile Though, I know I just won't do that as I have to have recovery weeks for sure if I continue with high milage - something like few 60-70 miles weeks will be necessary for sure - at the level I am right now, I just can't stress my legs for so long without some type of recovery.

                   

                  weather - congrats on the amazing PR! Such a mind blowing time (for me at least) - and in a time trial - which is so hard!

                  paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile


                  Elite Jogger

                    20 weeks of 100 miles a week only easy running? I'd rather sit here and listen to you guys argue for 20 straight weeks than have to go through that.

                     

                     

                    Well Hadd training isn’t quite as simple as that...maybe with lockdown you’ll be able to take some time to read the Hadd link and realise that everyone has their own way of hitting goal pace. 

                    5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                      Well Hadd training isn’t quite as simple as that...maybe with lockdown you’ll be able to take some time to read the Hadd link and realise that everyone has their own way of hitting goal pace. 

                       

                      Indeed. Hadd includes a workout of alternating 200m @ 5k pace/200m easy for 10k straight, which I would call a respectably hard workout! Prior to reading that I also had the misconception that Hadd's method was all easy, but there is a fair amount of long sub-threshold work in it. I'll be interested to observe the progress/outcome with Cal. I also like the concept but am not sure I will follow it to the letter; I'm not disciplined enough to stick to a set program.

                       

                      Cal: I take your point about not adding intensity when increasing mileage. Not sure I will ever go to some high mileage like you or even 80-90 range, I have tried a bit before and was always tired. But, that was with workouts going on as well so I don't shut out the possibility I could get used to it if I approach it in a Hadd-type of way. Just need to figure out what is the best option for me to get to sub 2:50. I tend to lean towards something like I've always done, but maybe paying more attention to HR for easy pace and LT work. But maybe high mileage will be the magic ingredient.

                       

                      Weather: Congrats again on the 10k! It seems not too long ago you were targeting to break 17 for 5k, now you've held that pace for twice as long. Good point by Mark as well regarding your half.

                       

                      DPS: That is some swing in the weather! Nice week; looked like about 90 miles or so?

                      2:52:16 (2018)

                      CalBears


                        Well Hadd training isn’t quite as simple as that...maybe with lockdown you’ll be able to take some time to read the Hadd link and realise that everyone has their own way of hitting goal pace. 

                         

                        Yeah, you are actually right - Hadd and high mileage running are not the same at all - Hadd is about getting aerobically fit at all HR levels,  lowering your LT level (if I understand it correctly) and running at specific HRs adding runs at a higher changing HR levels at right time.

                        paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                        weatherboy80


                          Thanks guys!  Really proud that I was able to PR in every distance I raced this fall into spring here.  JMac: as for my 5K all the way up to my recent HM times believe I'm right in line with the Daniels pacing tables for the most part.  Only for the marathon he time weakens a little bit back but perhaps there is something about fueling or pushing past that mental barrier that is next to shave off some more time.  Still argue I would have easily been sub 2:40 at Jacksonville without the wind on the back half and being stuck in solo for a bit.  As for the taper, or lack therefore, I did shave back the volume just before for the 10K a bit as I only mentally committed to the Saturday time trial when on Thursday or Friday when the weather looked decent enough (well at least compared to something like today where we hit 97 degrees)!!

                          5K: 16:15 (3/20)  |  10K: 33:40 (4/20)  |  HM: 1:15:53 (12/19)  |  FM: 2:40:30 (1/20)


                          Elite Jogger

                             

                            Yeah, you are actually right - Hadd and high mileage running are not the same at all - Hadd is about getting aerobically fit at all HR levels,  lowering your LT level (if I understand it correctly) and running at specific HRs adding runs at a higher changing HR levels at right time.

                             

                            Yeah but 20x100 mile weeks would be pretty cool....sub 2:40? 

                            5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                            Running Problem


                            Problem Child

                              Well Hadd training isn’t quite as simple as that...maybe with lockdown you’ll be able to take some time to read the Hadd link and realise that everyone has their own way of hitting goal pace. 

                               

                              Jack Daniels 2Q is the greatest training plan ever.

                               

                              The summary of every discussion on training plans being superior to training plans.

                              https://youtu.be/P9EhvDAMjWc

                              2020 Goal: Figure out the problem.

                              CalBears


                                 

                                Jack Daniels 2Q is the greatest training plan ever.

                                 

                                 

                                And blondes are definitely better than brunettes...

                                paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile