Goal of sub 20 5k (Read 13664 times)

JimR


    4 days to my race...temp is forecast for 86 now for my race on Friday. I was watching the Olympic trial I guess thats what it was... and 4 guys bested 13 minutes in the 5k despite temps in the upper 80s. I know the heat can sap your energy but I am hoping the temp is below 80 and since the sun will be low at 7:30 pm it shouldn't be that terrible. I did my last speedwork before my race doing 4 X 1 km on the treadmill in about 4:06 per kilometer. Then 3 X 200 meters in about 43 seconds each. I feel I am can beat 20 minutes now. All the miles I have run this year have finally taken effect. Now I just need a flat course and nice weather.
    The heat will be a factor this weekend. A coupla months ago Adeel suggested I run the 5k that's happening this Sunday, but temps are sposed to be mid-80's here in Toronto so I canned that plan. I wanna keep the mileage up for another month anyway. Here's hopin for a good cool morning breeze.
      On the coolrunning website OldXC guy was thinking aloud and said it would be fun to try and get a bunch of sub 20 wannabes together on a track. Let a good pacer go out in 96 second laps and let the wannabees follow the pacer around as many laps as they can go. I think I would break 20 quite easily this way. Just like treadmill running...even splits...flat track...noithing to think about but follow the pacer to your goal time. In a sense breaking 20 in a road race is probably going to be a lot harder than breaking it on a track race with few runners. On the road you cannot run the shortest tangent very well...must compensate to go around slower runners and deal with hills. This is the hard part about breaking 20. I am in shape to do it now but now must wait for the right course and weather to have a very good shot to do it. At least I have gotten into shape for the next 4 courses which are pretty fast. Tomorrow will probably be in the mid 80s this giving me a time in the mid to upper 20s but just maybe it will rain and get temps in the mid 70s and give me a shot. I am not taking tomorrows race too seriously though even though I ran the same course in 20:03 three weeks ago. I have a very fast course lined up June 28 for a morning race and I really want to train hard the next 3 weeks and bury the sub 20 there.
        Well I crossed the finish line in 20:37 last night. A thunderstorm lowered the temp from 92 to 71 by race time. It was humid at 70% humidity but I was glad I didn't have to run with temps in upper 80s. I found the pacer from the last race Mary Ellen in the opening mile but my legs felt sluggish and I couldn't stay with her in this race. She was about 8 seconds ahead for the opening 2 miles. I hit a mile in 6:38. I lost contact with my pack as this race was a bit smaller crowd with the heat and storms but still was pleased to concentrate and run mile 2 in 6:44. My 2 mile split was 13:22. Then I ran mile 3 in approx 6:40 and finished in 20:37 a few strides behind Mary Ellen. My 5k races this year........ 20:48 20:30 20:49 20:03 20:37 Now I have an excellent chance to beat 20 at my next race on June 28th....will have to train like Rocky the next 3 weeks.
          Those are quality times - congratulations. Good luck on the 28th. You have been racing a lot of 5K's. I would be happy with those times.
          JDF


          Non-Stroller-Still Crazy

            Jim, not to get off topic but is that a mid 38's 10K I saw for your results? That is simply stunning! Is there a link to the race report from that? On topic, I ran a 5k without the kids in the stroller for the first time in a long time. The kids didn't want to come because it hit 101 degrees a few hours before the race started. That is just too hot for them. Anyway, I was hoping to at least beat my best time this year because I wouldn't have the extra 110 pounds to push. Boy was I wrong! I made sure that I ran within myself because of the extreme heat. I had a decent 6:09 first mile and then just faded from there. I ended up with a 20:14 but I won my age group. However, that was 1:20 seconds slower than I usually am with the kids. I don't know what it is I just run a lot faster with them. I have a new found respect for running in the heat and actually some new found respect for running with out the stroller. On flat courses the stroller really does not hurt you that much and in some ways it can help you. It tends to pull me along when I get it up to speed. I find that I can maintain a much higher speed for a longer time with stroller as long as the road is flat or downhill. If it is uphill then all bets are off. Anyway, I still have the goal to break 20:00 without the stroller this year. I will get my shot next weekend at our local race for the cure. It is a hilly course and the temps will be in the low 80's at 7:00 AM. However, the energy of 22,000 people should get me motivated!
            evtish


              It's just getting too damn hot out there! I'll put in a prayer for cool race conditions going forward Smile Cheers, Tom PS: Remember to have after race refreshments. Photobucket
              JDF


              Non-Stroller-Still Crazy

                Well I crossed the finish line in 20:37 last night. A thunderstorm lowered the temp from 92 to 71 by race time. It was humid at 70% humidity but I was glad I didn't have to run with temps in upper 80s. I found the pacer from the last race Mary Ellen in the opening mile but my legs felt sluggish and I couldn't stay with her in this race. She was about 8 seconds ahead for the opening 2 miles. I hit a mile in 6:38. I lost contact with my pack as this race was a bit smaller crowd with the heat and storms but still was pleased to concentrate and run mile 2 in 6:44. My 2 mile split was 13:22. Then I ran mile 3 in approx 6:40 and finished in 20:37 a few strides behind Mary Ellen. My 5k races this year........ 20:48 20:30 20:49 20:03 20:37 Now I have an excellent chance to beat 20 at my next race on June 28th....will have to train like Rocky the next 3 weeks.
                Great job Mich! Keep it up. I have a good feeling that you will be moving on past this thread after next week. Just give it everything on that last mile! Not so sure about the track thing though. In my book if it is not a certified road course then it doesn't count.
                  Jim, not to get off topic but is that a mid 38's 10K I saw for your results? That is simply stunning! Is there a link to the race report from that?
                  Thanks Travis. Of the 479 races I've finished in my life this one ranked with the top handful in terms of satisfaction. I honestly didn't think I'd go that fast even though conditions were near perfect. It was only a year ago that I ran 40:15 on the same course and still hadn't broken 40 after 2 years of trying. Here's the link to RR: http://www.runningahead.com/groups/MastRun/Forum/52618f86627b42a1926fe17ec3ddf4e4 I feel a lot in common with many of the people on this thread from my experience in chasing my 10k goal, especially with those who have stuck with it so long without giving up. Also, the sub-20 5k was a key stepping stone along the way. And even though I've often played it down, the psychological barrier can be a major obstacle. Before I finally got that first sub-40 I had 9 prior unsuccessful attempts, including a full year of preparation before the first one. There were many times that I had doubts that it was ever going to happen. However, once I did it the first time I followed up with 7 more in succession.
                  Age 60 plus best times: 5k 19:00, 10k 38:35, 10m 1:05:30, HM 1:24:09, 30k 2:04:33
                  JDF


                  Non-Stroller-Still Crazy

                    Thanks Travis. Of the 479 races I've finished in my life this one ranked with the top handful in terms of satisfaction. I honestly didn't think I'd go that fast even though conditions were near perfect. It was only a year ago that I ran 40:15 on the same course and still hadn't broken 40 after 2 years of trying. Here's the link to RR: http://www.runningahead.com/groups/MastRun/Forum/52618f86627b42a1926fe17ec3ddf4e4 I feel a lot in common with many of the people on this thread from my experience in chasing my 10k goal, especially with those who have stuck with it so long without giving up. Also, the sub-20 5k was a key stepping stone along the way. And even though I've often played it down, the psychological barrier can be a major obstacle. Before I finally got that first sub-40 I had 9 prior unsuccessful attempts, including a full year of preparation before the first one. There were many times that I had doubts that it was ever going to happen. However, once I did it the first time I followed up with 7 more in succession.
                    Yea I saw that time and I had to do a double take. You should definitely be proud of that one! Oh yea if you run one more race you should catch me(5th male overall) on active.com’s point totals. Please be kind as you leave me in your wake? You know how much trouble I have had with trying to break the 10K 40:00 barrier. I am still chasing it. Heck, now I am still chasing the 20:00 barrier this year without the kids. With the kids I am so motivated to run that it is almost trivial. Without the kids I just can not get up the drive to push it to my limits.
                      Great job Mich! Keep it up. I have a good feeling that you will be moving on past this thread after next week. Just give it everything on that last mile! Not so sure about the track thing though. In my book if it is not a certified road course then it doesn't count.
                      I am trying to get the monkey off my back. I am getting more fit and more confident with each passing day. I may try a track or road trial by myself this weekend just to see if I keep going strong after a 6:15-6:20 opening mile...it is another confidence builder for me. Last night I ran with the track club and we ran ladders 800-400-200 meters times 3 which was run like a relay race...I had a partner who would run each split after I ran mine so after this effort I feel I am ready to break 20...just have to get out stronger on the opening mile. My splits were pretty good I thought. 3:01, 1:28, 0:41 3:05, 1:31, 0:43 3:06, 1:23, 0:36
                        I am trying to get the monkey off my back. I am getting more fit and more confident with each passing day. I may try a track or road trial by myself this weekend just to see if I keep going strong after a 6:15-6:20 opening mile...it is another confidence builder for me. Last night I ran with the track club and we ran ladders 800-400-200 meters times 3 which was run like a relay race...I had a partner who would run each split after I ran mine so after this effort I feel I am ready to break 20...just have to get out stronger on the opening mile. My splits were pretty good I thought. 3:01, 1:28, 0:41 3:05, 1:31, 0:43 3:06, 1:23, 0:36
                        >I may try a track or road trial by myself this weekend just to see if I keep going strong after a 6:15-6:20 opening mile I don't know why you did only one 13-miler and then stopped. A 12-13 almost every weekend would do SO much more good than a time trial. I think you should drop those trials altogether. You race often enough that you don't need them. You have enough speed already. Strength is what you need more of. Can't you see? You will know that you have broken through when you can go out on pace and keep going for another 2 mlles. For your goal that is 6:22-6:25 range. What is going to give you that ability is more strength/endurance. You might as well go run another race as waste time and energy with those time trials. I believe you are going to reach your goal no matter how you train, but I think you are making it harder on yourself than necessary. I know I've posted this before but here it is again...one of my favorites by Steve Scott: "During my career, the most important aspect of my training regime was strength. You can spend the rest of your life working on speed and make little progress, but if you spend the rest of your running career working on strength, you’ll always continue to improve. Improvements are also achieved by increasing your endurance. What do I mean by strength or endurance? Mileage, Mileage, Mileage! The more miles you can run, the stronger you will" Not only was Scott a great miler, but he was also a multiple winner of prestigious Carlsbad 5000.
                        Age 60 plus best times: 5k 19:00, 10k 38:35, 10m 1:05:30, HM 1:24:09, 30k 2:04:33


                        SMART Approach

                          >I may try a track or road trial by myself this weekend just to see if I keep going strong after a 6:15-6:20 opening mile I don't know why you did only one 13-miler and then stopped. A 12-13 almost every weekend would do SO much more good than a time trial. I think you should drop those trials altogether. You race often enough that you don't need them. You have enough speed already. Strength is what you need more of. Can't you see? You will know that you have broken through when you can go out on pace and keep going for another 2 mlles. For your goal that is 6:22-6:25 range. What is going to give you that ability is more strength/endurance. You might as well go run another race as waste time and energy with those time trials. I believe you are going to reach your goal no matter how you train, but I think you are making it harder on yourself than necessary. I know I've posted this before but here it is again...one of my favorites by Steve Scott: "During my career, the most important aspect of my training regime was strength. You can spend the rest of your life working on speed and make little progress, but if you spend the rest of your running career working on strength, you’ll always continue to improve. Improvements are also achieved by increasing your endurance. What do I mean by strength or endurance? Mileage, Mileage, Mileage! The more miles you can run, the stronger you will" Not only was Scott a great miler, but he was also a multiple winner of prestigious Carlsbad 5000.
                          I really like that quote from Steve Scott. It really makes you think about 6 months from now or two years from now. Jim, great job on recent race. You are "a machine". Michigan, I agree totally with Jim. You don't need more speed work and time trials. Honestly, I feel those long comfortable runs are extremely valuable to your 5K race progress. Throw on a faster finish (not too fast) on those long runs (if feeling pretty good) on tired legs and you have an incredible strength work out that carries over to a 5K race allowing more strength to hold a faster pace. As you know, I am leary of fast work (upper hammys recovery) and have been doing two longer slower work outs a week w/ striders and I am continuing to get faster in 5 and 10ks this year with no speed work on same miles (20-22 miles over 4 days of running).

                          Run Coach. Recovery Coach. Founder of SMART Approach Training, Coaching & Recovery

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                          www.smartapproachtraining.com

                            >I I don't know why you did only one 13-miler and then stopped. A 12-13 almost every weekend would do SO much more good than a time trial. I think you should drop those trials altogether. You race often enough that you don't need them. You have enough speed already. Strength is what you need more of. Can't you see? You will know that you have broken through when you can go out on pace and keep going for another 2 mlles. For your goal that is 6:22-6:25 range. What is going to give you that ability is more strength/endurance. You might as well go run another race as waste time and energy with those time trials. .
                            Jim, I hear you.I went out to run a 12 miler on Sunday and the heat got to me. I stopped after a 6 mile loop and felt like I would pass out. I later did 9 miles on the treadmill in my cooler basement but yeah I was bummed that I missed my long run this week. I just have to be careful in that getting too serious about breaking 20 could cause me to do too much and get injured. Good point about doing a time trial and wasting my energy. I guess I am thinking that my 5k races are closer to tempo work because I don't have the confidence to start out faster. Since I am also trying for placement in races I don't want to die out and blow a race by starting 10 seconds too fast. Maybe a solution would be a race that isn't in my race series. I wouldnt feel that bad about blowing the race. I may not run a 5k time trial then....maybe just a mile at 6:15 and see how I feel...then go for mile 2 in 6:40....that shouldnt take TOO much out of me but I agree it is not the smartest thing to do. I just havent done any long time trials this year as I did last year so I dont know what I am capable of or how it will feel. Maybe I have the strength to go 10 seconds faster a mile and I dont know it yet.
                            JDF


                            Non-Stroller-Still Crazy

                              Mich, I am with everyone else on this. You know how few miles I used to put in right(<10mpw)? i struggled to break 21:00 for three years while doing that. i started doing 10k training runs instead 2 years ago and i dropped down to 19:17 in about 3 months. then last year i started doing 10-13 mile runs on the weekends. i dropped another 50 seconds off of my 5k time and i knocked a solid 40 minutes off of my marathon time. if you can make it through a nice 8-10 mile tempo run then the 5k will feel like a sprint to you! it is amazing how running medium to longer training runs will give you the ability to hammer the last mile or even the last quarter of a mile. most people don’t realize how much a good sprint over the last quarter mile can reduce your time. think about this: if you run the last quarter at a 6:00 pace then it will take you 1:30. if you run it at a 5:00 pace then it will take you 1:15. finally, if you can muster up a nice 4:00 pace then it will take you 1:00. think about that! you can reduce your total time by 30 seconds within sight of the finish line! now the 4:00 pace is tough to do but it is not impossible with a nice long downhill finish. heck even the 5:00 pace gets you 15 seconds. that would get you to easily reach your goal. the key is that you have to sustain your final sprint for as long as you possibly can. you can hit 20 mph in your sprint but it won’t do you any good if that is only sustained for a few steps. the best way to increase the time you can hold your sprint for is by doing endurance work. oh yea, if it is hot out then all bets are off. our two fastest local elite guys lost more than 1 minute off of their 5k times running in the 80-100 degree heat last week. even those guys are affected by it! i="" struggled="" to="" break="" 21:00="" for="" three="" years="" while="" doing="" that.="" i="" started="" doing="" 10k="" training="" runs="" instead="" 2="" years="" ago="" and="" i="" dropped="" down="" to="" 19:17="" in="" about="" 3="" months.="" then="" last="" year="" i="" started="" doing="" 10-13="" mile="" runs="" on="" the="" weekends.="" i="" dropped="" another="" 50="" seconds="" off="" of="" my="" 5k="" time="" and="" i="" knocked="" a="" solid="" 40="" minutes="" off="" of="" my="" marathon="" time.="" if="" you="" can="" make="" it="" through="" a="" nice="" 8-10="" mile="" tempo="" run="" then="" the="" 5k="" will="" feel="" like="" a="" sprint="" to="" you!="" it="" is="" amazing="" how="" running="" medium="" to="" longer="" training="" runs="" will="" give="" you="" the="" ability="" to="" hammer="" the="" last="" mile="" or="" even="" the="" last="" quarter="" of="" a="" mile.="" most="" people="" don’t="" realize="" how="" much="" a="" good="" sprint="" over="" the="" last="" quarter="" mile="" can="" reduce="" your="" time.="" think="" about="" this:="" if="" you="" run="" the="" last="" quarter="" at="" a="" 6:00="" pace="" then="" it="" will="" take="" you="" 1:30.="" if="" you="" run="" it="" at="" a="" 5:00="" pace="" then="" it="" will="" take="" you="" 1:15.="" finally,="" if="" you="" can="" muster="" up="" a="" nice="" 4:00="" pace="" then="" it="" will="" take="" you="" 1:00.="" think="" about="" that!="" you="" can="" reduce="" your="" total="" time="" by="" 30="" seconds="" within="" sight="" of="" the="" finish="" line!="" now="" the="" 4:00="" pace="" is="" tough="" to="" do="" but="" it="" is="" not="" impossible="" with="" a="" nice="" long="" downhill="" finish.="" heck="" even="" the="" 5:00="" pace="" gets="" you="" 15="" seconds.="" that="" would="" get="" you="" to="" easily="" reach="" your="" goal.="" the="" key="" is="" that="" you="" have="" to="" sustain="" your="" final="" sprint="" for="" as="" long="" as="" you="" possibly="" can.="" you="" can="" hit="" 20="" mph="" in="" your="" sprint="" but="" it="" won’t="" do="" you="" any="" good="" if="" that="" is="" only="" sustained="" for="" a="" few="" steps.="" the="" best="" way="" to="" increase="" the="" time="" you="" can="" hold="" your="" sprint="" for="" is="" by="" doing="" endurance="" work.="" oh="" yea,="" if="" it="" is="" hot="" out="" then="" all="" bets="" are="" off.="" our="" two="" fastest="" local="" elite="" guys="" lost="" more="" than="" 1="" minute="" off="" of="" their="" 5k="" times="" running="" in="" the="" 80-100="" degree="" heat="" last="" week.="" even="" those="" guys="" are="" affected="" by="" it!=""></10mpw)? i struggled to break 21:00 for three years while doing that. i started doing 10k training runs instead 2 years ago and i dropped down to 19:17 in about 3 months. then last year i started doing 10-13 mile runs on the weekends. i dropped another 50 seconds off of my 5k time and i knocked a solid 40 minutes off of my marathon time. if you can make it through a nice 8-10 mile tempo run then the 5k will feel like a sprint to you! it is amazing how running medium to longer training runs will give you the ability to hammer the last mile or even the last quarter of a mile. most people don’t realize how much a good sprint over the last quarter mile can reduce your time. think about this: if you run the last quarter at a 6:00 pace then it will take you 1:30. if you run it at a 5:00 pace then it will take you 1:15. finally, if you can muster up a nice 4:00 pace then it will take you 1:00. think about that! you can reduce your total time by 30 seconds within sight of the finish line! now the 4:00 pace is tough to do but it is not impossible with a nice long downhill finish. heck even the 5:00 pace gets you 15 seconds. that would get you to easily reach your goal. the key is that you have to sustain your final sprint for as long as you possibly can. you can hit 20 mph in your sprint but it won’t do you any good if that is only sustained for a few steps. the best way to increase the time you can hold your sprint for is by doing endurance work. oh yea, if it is hot out then all bets are off. our two fastest local elite guys lost more than 1 minute off of their 5k times running in the 80-100 degree heat last week. even those guys are affected by it! >
                              kcam


                                Oh-my-gosh! 4min pace for the last quarter? Even on my best day, fresh from a warmup jog, I don't think I could even approach a 60 sec quarter mile. I do agree that the ability to finish strong is key; strengh and stamina.