Competitive Jerks Racing and Training - 2023 (Read 244 times)

flavio1980


Intl. correspondent

    Lord commander - Thanks for tracking Darkwave for us.

     

    Dave - Kudos for an excellent week and very consistent training

     

    Andy - That's a lovely picture, it's so cool that your kiddo is enjoying these races!

     

    DK - I'm the opposite, a day where I can walk barefoot all day is so nice and liberating. In fact I do that for most of the year except the few winter months and since I work from home that means all day long.
    Barefoot shoes require a lot of patience and to be honest I have not yet found a good safe migration guide for people like us who are actively training for something. It's always something like: Stop everything and only run barefoot, but then you can only run like 500m every other day.
    I like a less purist approach and I'm trying to approach this from above.
    The plan is to very slowly introduce more and more barefoot or close to barefoot running over years while performing the strengthening exercises to get there.
    5x1200's is a tough workout, especially that last rep. IMHO, If you haven't done anything vo2max in a while, 4x1200 might be more appropriate.

     

    RP - It's interesting how much concern a vo2max workout causes to you. I'm in the opposite side of the spectrum, I have literally never worried about not being able to run fast enough in a workout, but plenty of times I'm worried that my muscular endurance will fail me and I'll have to run the last rep slower, or that I'll exert myself too much and end up with the flu.
    The tricks the mind plays at us.

     

    DW - You can easily see from the comments here how much admiration and respect we have for your determination and bravery.
    And at least in my specific case, for the time you've ran. It might not be your fastest but it's still very fast in my book.

    PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

    Up next: 10K corrida das 4 estacoes - Coimbra/Portugal 2023-02-05

    Tool to generate Strava weekly

    Fishyone


      Just getting caught up from the week.  Good base building week. Got some fast T miles in on Wednesday and the first 20 miler of the cycle Sunday.  Trying to keep up with the strides a couple of times a week as I get a tad lazy when the volume starts to creep up.

       

      Date Title Distance Time Avg Pace Total Ascent
      1/9/23 AM Commute 7.65 1:05:56 8:37 253
      1/9/23 PM commute with strides 7.67 1:01:04 7:57 315
      1/10/23 lunch run 7.5 1:00:31 8:04 141
      1/11/23 13 with 5 T 13.1 1:37:07 7:25 197
      1/12/23 recovery 7.5 7.64 1:04:10 8:24 423
      1/13/23 7 with 10x100m strides 7.15 0:53:32 7:29 125
      1/14/23 AM recovery 7.65 1:07:46 8:52 246
      1/15/23 Steady 20 LR 20.06 2:42:01 8:05 892
                 
        Total 78.42      

      5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

      Running Problem


      Problem Child

        flavio it was more of a mental issue. I’ve been getting a lot of things piling up and feeling like I’m dropping the ball, doing it wrong again and again, or just not good enough. Last thing I wanted was another reminder I suck at life. Especially when this is the goal race I’ve been working on for years.  At one point I though ‘we’ll it’s a good thing Boston is paid for or else I’d not even sign up.’

        Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

        VDOT 52.45

        5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

        CommanderKeen


        Cobra Commander Keen

          DWave - Congrats on Houston! It's insane to me how you're able to run such consistent efforts the way you do - your HR was incredibly stable even late when it was really warming up.
          I'm physched that you feel that things are going the right way for you.
          RR is queued up, which will likely answer the questions I have right now.


          Flavio - Feeling better now?


          Mark, Steve, Merkle, Dave, DKT, RP - Nice weeks.

           

          Starting to build back a bit now. I for once would like to run a marathon without getting sick afterwards so I can get right back to training the way DKT does. Though we haven't talked specifics yet, my coach is on board with my stupidity this year and my training plans are starting to reflect that a bit.

           

           

          Weekly for period: From: 01/09/2023 To 01/15/2023

          <caption>Weekly Grid</caption>
          Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
          in ft
          01/09 1 rabbit 9.01 14.49 01:15:43 08:24 05:14 436
          01/09 Shaking the 737-700 out of my legs 2.05 3.30 00:16:19 07:58 04:57 43
          01/10 Tourist-ing 8.76 14.09 01:07:55 07:45 04:49 249
          01/11 Guided by DWave, powered by kitteh 7.18 11.56 01:08:40 09:34 05:56 230
          01/12 6x 5' HMe 10.42 16.77 01:16:20 07:20 04:33 233
          01/13 It's cold away from the water 4.00 6.44 00:35:35 08:54 05:32 138
          01/14 I could use a garden kraken 15.06 24.23 02:01:43 08:05 05:01 0
          01/15 Zwift - Queen's Highway in Yorkshire 4.02 6.46 00:34:10 08:30 05:17 0

          Total distance: 60.50mi

          5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22

           

          Upcoming Races:

           

          Heartland 50 - May 6

          JMac11


          RIP Milkman

            keen - have you finalized your plans this spring? I still see no races on the board for you and only cryptic messages about what you're planning on doing! Also, I feel like it's a good thing you're getting sick if you're that antsy to get back into training right after a marathon. Your body needs that rest.

             

            Fishy - doing strides in marathon training feels like the biggest waste of time, doesn't it?

             

            RP - your winter weather sounds awful

             

            DK - just requested you on Strava, wanted to take a look at that 5x1200. One other comment besides the one I added earlier is that 5K and 10K pace are so different from one another that they would make vastly different workouts imo. 7x1200 at 10K pace isn't that tough, whereas it is a very difficult (I'd say peak) workout for 5K.

             

            Andy - I love the picture update! Also I'm sure for your son, beating a bunch of adults feels amazing. I had a conversation with my PT yesterday about how bad coaches in middle school and high school ruined so many runners with their awful approaches, now that I look back and understand how bad their plans were. It sounds like you have a great approach and that won't happen here!

             

            merkle - can you explain the pacing on the 200s and the purpose of that workout?

             

             

            I started my real 5K/10K training yesterday. 2 months of just easy running was enough for me, I couldn't wait another 2 weeks to start like I said I would. I forgot how good it felt to actually run fast (e.g. mile pace). It feels like an all out spring compared to marathon training! Looking forward to racing at least 5 times this spring, something I don't get to do with marathon training.

            5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

             

             

            CommanderKeen


            Cobra Commander Keen

              JMac - It's not that I'd start logging 11+ per day the week after a marathon, it's just that I'd like the option.

              Spring plans are not completely finalized - I'm having a chat with my coach in the next week or so to discuss. I'll likely run a fast HM to get my NYC qualifier, then logically roll that speed into a 50 miler in early May. Then either a marathon or a 100 miler in the fall.

               

              I kinda like strides during marathon training a day or two ahead of a workout - just something to prime things ahead of the workout. I know a guy who thinks that strides one or twice per week is all the speedwork a person needs to do for any race distance - "most of the benefits of intervals, none of the injury risk". Ha!

              5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22

               

              Upcoming Races:

               

              Heartland 50 - May 6

              Fishyone


                Jmac and others.  I finds real strides tough to do correctly so mine are almost always 10 straights and curves on the track.  Without the straightaway I can never get the distance right   I remember when I used the pfitz plans he calls for a ton of strides which I rarely did LOL.  Now that I’m doing them I agree with Keen it’s nice to get a little juice at the end of a “just put in the miles” runs.

                 

                keen Tell me you’re not going to the Dark Side and going all ultra!!

                5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

                mmerkle


                  dk I pretty much always run on all terrains, most of it being road though. So I wouldn't say anything has changed.

                   

                  JMac The purpose of the 8 X 200 was to work on leg speed. When I'm in better shape, it's not usually an issue for me to do 10 X 200 with that amount of rest starting with 35s and working my way down to 32s for the last couple. So that workout told me that I'm not back in shape yet speed wise.

                   

                  Fishyone By correctly do you mean getting the distance to be 100m on the nose? I've never really worried much about distance with strides. I Just focus on form and power. If I'm doing 100s on a track that's a different story. Does Pfitz call for 100m?

                  Running Problem


                  Problem Child

                    JMac it’s exactly what I needed too. At least today the paths were cleared.  I’m telling myself it’s because LAST week no one cleared anything and it turned to ice so THIS time no one wants ice. It was 35F and snowing yesterday so I waited a long time for todays workout.  I too, forgot how good it feels to run fast. Today’s workout had some ‘oh man I don’t know if I can make the whole thing at this pace. Gotta give it 100% and find out’ moments.

                    Good to see you’re excited about training again.

                    Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                    VDOT 52.45

                    5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                    JMac11


                    RIP Milkman

                      Strides - I actually love them in marathon training too for the reasons you guys said, but it still feels “useless” besides for my own mental benefit of saying “I’ve still got it!” I will say though, the first thing to go whenever I get any injury is strides. Maybe that’s not right but it feels like the least important thing in all my training so why should I do strides when I have a hamstring niggle?

                       

                      merkle - I guess I was questioning more the pace. 200s definitely work on speed. But what speed are you targeting with them? And how are you determining what the right pace is? Jack Daniels always does 200s at mile pace, mainly because this is a fast but controlled pace. Yours seem to be much closer to 800 pace, or even faster depending on how you’re judging them, so I’m curious what the benefit is of doing them as fast as you’re doing them.

                       

                      RP - I feel like you guys have so much ice! I guess that’s how the desert works though: you get such crazy low temperatures compared to those of us near a body of water.

                       

                      Keen - I agree with fishy, it’s okay if you go to the dark side but only for one cycle. Then you need to come back to the good guys.

                      5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                       

                       

                      Fishyone


                        MMerk because I never ran any short stuff or was coached in any way on How to do short stuff I struggle with distances so the track helps keep the strides consistent.  When I try to run them on the roads the distance is all over the place and it bothers my ordered mind to see the inconsistency.  I think pfitz called for 100m so it made sense to me.

                         

                        Flavio we have all of these amazing shoes why would I try to run barefoot?  Gotta say that now I’m training in the endorphin pros it feels weird to put on my Hokas or other more cushy/bulky shoes.  

                        Andy great to be able to race with your kid!  My daughter is an athlete but really doesn’t love running YET…..She only 17 so I’m still holding out hope she gets into it later in life.  I’d love to run a half or maybe full with her someday.

                         

                        RP it’s been a sloppy couple of days here but we’ve been really lucky this winter.

                        5K 19:18 (2014), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:29:07 (2015), full 2:58:36 (2015) 

                        Marky_Mark_17


                           merkle - I guess I was questioning more the pace. 200s definitely work on speed. But what speed are you targeting with them? And how are you determining what the right pace is? Jack Daniels always does 200s at mile pace, mainly because this is a fast but controlled pace. Yours seem to be much closer to 800 pace, or even faster depending on how you’re judging them, so I’m curious what the benefit is of doing them as fast as you’re doing them.

                            

                           

                          I'd caution being too prescriptive on pace for 200s like this, perceived effort is the critical thing, or more correctly perceived ability to sustain the effort.  The purpose of speed work is to recruit your fast-twitch fibers.  The best ways to work on that are strength training and sprints.  If I'm running something like 8 x 200, I'm probably trying to build up over the course of the workout, with the last one being close to all-out.  If you run them at mile pace throughout you will involve the type 2a muscle fibers but you're unlikely to be engaging the type 2b because you're just not getting close enough to an all-out sprint.

                          3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                          10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                          * Net downhill course

                          Last race: Clevedon Country Half Marathon, 5 Feb, 1:17:50, 1st overall

                          Up next: Waterfront Half Marathon, 2 Apr

                          "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                          Running Problem


                          Problem Child

                            Strides I don’t do them. I don’t know why. I just don’t. Probably because I think it’s supposed to be a sprint, and I usually use my massage gun to prime the legs for bedtime.

                            JMac we get ice just because the weather gets warm enough to melt snow, but not enough to melt ALL the snow, and the plowing mentality is ‘ah it will melt.’ Sometimes I think they SHOULD T plow so people have to deal with it.  I don’t know. It’s all fucked and it’s because everyone wants to be lazy and have someone else do it.  Including Mother Nature.

                            keen enjoy the rest. Seriously.  The 60 mile weeks are most people’s marathon peak. Find a new hobby like building Anime models.  Be careful with that ultra thing.  You’ll start making plans for when you’re ‘too old’ for marathons, and try to figure out when to get 3-6 hour training runs.

                            After you do that you ask your wife ‘so how do you feel about going to Hawaii mid January? Beaches.  Warm. Know how cold it gets here? Read a book. Leave the kids here.  I’ll go run a 100 miler and you can sit on the beach. Yes that’s a conversation I just had with my wife. HURT 100. 

                            Fishy I know a few people training for Boston who ski. They weren’t happy when I said I would be happy about the driest winter on record or if we got no snow I wouldn’t care. They’re not really training for another PR, and it’s easier for them to get a BQ. One guy is just doing Boston because he got in and has family who live there so it’s a free room. The Sunday group has a few folks running it so we’re all suffering the snow/ice/dreadmill thing together.   Wel except me because I don’t own a treadmill.  


                            I do my speed work using GPS.  It’s what works and I do it on roads.  When I switch to hill repeats on trails I take the time my road training takes, and run hard uphill for about the same amount of time.  It seems to work.

                            Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                            VDOT 52.45

                            5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                            mmerkle


                              JMac I didn't think it could be detrimental to run faster than mile pace, if the purpose is to work on leg speed. I see Mark is mentioning that this could work type 2a more than type 2b, but is there something wrong with working 2a? My pace for these is "fast but not sprinting". It feels good to open up and run those speeds for 200s. Not sure why, it just does. It seems to me from past experience that if I can do 200s in the mid to low 30s like that, then my legs lose less power during VO2 and threshold workouts.

                               

                              edit: Is this analogous to running easy runs at 7:30 vs 8min pace, where I'm creeping into a dead zone?


                              Glute Force

                                Hi to all!

                                 

                                RP why don't you own a threadmill - usually not necessary or no room?

                                 

                                JMac quick question on run commuting, something I have been doing quite a bit. Just curious: if you have a backpack with laptop, and you need to fit in la JD repeat like 5x3min at I pace - how much do you decrease your normal I pace if any, for the extra weight?

                                 

                                I go by feel and there its probably 15 seconds slower than no weight, but I am on a metric system and quite slow. So just curious.

                                 

                                Best,

                                MJ