Forums >Racing>Competitive Jerks Racing and Training - 2023
Cobra Commander Keen
Black - It just takes time to build up the endurance needed for those miles. I recall formerly being absolutely wiped out all day if I did an easy LR of 16 or more miles in my early running career. Fast forward to this year and I averaged 105mpw for 12 weeks (15 per day) training for my 100. To echo what Andy mentioned, there's a massive difference between wanting to "just" complete a marathon and wanting to run one at the edge of your capabilities at the time. As for the time involves - I lose sleep. Honestly. It's the only way I can get in my running plus spend time with the family outside of work.
Steve - Who know how many you'll have to suffer through before getting it right! It took a lot for me. My coach's wife dropped a 3:00:2x in her first attempt.
5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22
Upcoming Races:
OKC Memorial 5k - April 27
Bun Run 5k - May 4
Are we there, yet?
Dave/Keen - Do I really have to suffer through 5 or more marathons before I get a good one???
It probably takes some experience to be able to consistently run good ones, but some manage on their first...then need 4-5 more before they run another good one.
2024 Races:
03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles
05/11 - D3 50K 05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour
06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.
My goal is a marathon in 2025, albeit probably not very quickly. I just can't imagine getting over 200 miles in a month. Right now 7-8 miles is my long run and my legs are super fatigued by the end.
You'll turn around twice and next thing you know, you can't believe 7-8 miles used to make you feel that fatigued. How long have you been consistently trying to increase your weekly mileage and long runs? Something you can try is tacking on some cross training to help with the transition. So run maybe 6-7 miles and then hop on a bike or elliptical or something for another say 30 minutes at an easy effort. Or maybe even just walk for that amount of time. Also Andy's advice on doing some doubles is good. That's also what helps us get over 60 mpw.
Steve I'd be surprised if it took that many more. I know you're frustrated, but everything else is going right. It took Commander 6 or 7 tries but he had bad luck with viruses more than once if I remember correctly, so not your typical example. Without those illnesses it would have likely happened sooner. My "breakthrough" marathon was on my 4th overall, but my first one was all the way back in 2012. So let's call it on my third within 2 years. If I had to guess, I'd say either your next one or the one after will go really well. And if it has to be the latter, I think the in between one will still be better. Only speculating, but I think that's a reasonable guess.
Mark Thanks for the input. That's what I was wondering, if my body just needed to chill. Both this year and last year I had big Octobers leading up to big races in November, both of which left me wounded.
Steve - The length of time it took me to run a half-decent marathon might have been related to the fact that I started running them early in my running career, before I was ready, and before I had any kind of historical mileage base. You have a lot stronger background in HMs and running in general, so you’ll get up the learning curve pretty quickly.
Dave
Dorothea
Re how many marathons: It took me 4 marathons to figure out how to race a marathon, 8 to understand that it doesn't always have to end painfully, and I still don't think I've got it quite right. Every race is different; you can't necessarily expect the same thing to work twice. If you want, you just have to keep signing up, training for them the best you can, and one of these days all the pieces will fall into place. [ETA:] That being said--it may be your next one, or it may be your 10th one. Don't think of it as suffering through more marathons, but gaining experience.
Congrats on great course record, Mark. That uphill finish probably crushes many runners, though--both the actual running, but also knowing that it's still coming.
Merkle, I also am wondering if the mind knows that the body has a bit of time before the next race, and sends out all the sirens to make one take it easy after a busy season.
Fishy, I wouldn't let a statistical likelihood stop you. You're also statistically less likely to PR as you get older once you get past a certain age, and I don't see that applying to you, either.
darkwave, that's good news, indeed! Hoping it's not just a residual effect.
Qualifications: I like to run. In Florida. In the summer. At noon.
Last race: April 28, Glass City Marathon, 3:29:53. Saw deer; cried; didn't melt in rain or heat.
Intl. correspondent
DW - Excellent, fingers crossed these are long term gains!
Fishy - Monster week as usual. I like the Fishy way of running, just run lots and lots!
Keen - I'm happy you chose the path of light!Who knows just how fast you can run a 5k when you don't have the weight of multiple 100 milers in your legs.
JBlack - As others have said, people are vastly different from one another. I'm constantly in awe of the feats of strength and endurance displayed by the people in this thread.The sheer levels of determination.Regarding how to find the time, it's a matter of priorities in your life.If running becomes a top priority it's easy to find the time.But naturally, that won't be the case for most as people have other commitments in life that take higher priority like kids, difficult jobs, sick relatives etc.I am childless by choice, and I don't have a stressful job, so I in fact have too much time.I have so much time that I'm often frustrated that my body cannot handle more than 10 hours of running per week when I could be running 15 hours.
Dave - It's honestly disappointing that McMillan will not adjust the plan for your preferences.Their plans are working though, so I guess no harm 😎
Cal - Sorry to hear about the sickness, here's hoping you get well soon! 🙏
I wanted to ask if you knew of this band called Alyans when you lived in the Soviet Union ? Anyway, they have this song На заре
which is awesome -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn47dbF1XIA
Mikkey - Kudos for keeping the gym discipline!
I'm hoping we can see you competing once again.
me - I wanted to quantify just how out of shape I am at the moment. So I ran a mile time trial at the track earlier today.
5:39:94 - Oooof, that's my 3000 PR pace! Okay, I'll run a 3000 time trial in a few weeks and we'll see how far I have progressed.
PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021
Up next: some 800m race (or time trials) / Also place in the top 20% in a trail race
Tool to generate Strava weekly
I forgot to mention: In the book I'm reading "Strength and Conditioning for endurance running" by Richard Blagrove, chapter 14 goes in detail about how to periodize the strength training so that it matches the running you're doing.
I don't actually structure my strength training as it's the gym coach who does that for me, but now I have a much better understanding of the "why" behind things. And I also feel that I'm in a better position of explaining to the coach what I need.
I'm trying to channel Cal from the old RWOL group. He consistently put up monster weeks including the sneaky mid-week 13's! I remember thinking I could actually be a "real runner" if I could put up weeks like that. Flash forward and I still hope to be a "real runner" someday
JBlack- My advice is to run a lot and don't pay any attention to pace whatsoever. Painfully slow long runs where you compile time on your feet will pay HUGE dividends. For my first marathon all of my training LRs were run at @ 10 min. pace. Once you have the first under your belt consistent training without long breaks will produce!! Also, stick around here...some of these guys have speed to spare and some is bound to rub off on us
5K 18:36 (2023), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:24:37 (2023), full 2:58:36 (2015)
Cal - Sorry to hear about the sickness, here's hoping you get well soon! 🙏 I wanted to ask if you knew of this band called Alyans when you lived in the Soviet Union ? Anyway, they have this song На заре which is awesome -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn47dbF1XIA
You continue to surprise me flavio Of course I know that song - I was in my mid 20s and it was an explosion of new bands and singers, but that song definitely was something - especially chorus - every time I hear it I am having goosebumps They had few good other songs, but nothing close to this one. Another song of that band I like a lot, really a lot, but you probably have to know Russian to really understand why - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PusKMgp0k_Y&ab_channel=%D0%90%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%8F%D0%BD%D1%81-Topic
Thank you for reminding me about that time - it was a good time, despite all the turmoil in the country, but I was young and youth is one of the most magical things we experience
paces PRs - 5K - 5:48 / 10K - 6:05 / HM - 6:14 / FM - 6:26 per mile
WC- How did the interval workout feel? I think the first time back doing speed I normally either feel awesome or a sense of "holy shit I remember how much this sucks!"
The intervals weren't that bad running them, though 6 was my limit without overdoing it. It's the recovery that's kicking my ass. They took far more effort than it felt like at the time. I cut short my recovery run the next day and took off today entirely. BTW with my track background, intervals are one of my favorite workouts.
Cal - thanks for that song rec, I like that style of song. Oddly enough I was listening to (Сплин Англо-Русский словарь) on youtube, and then it recommended some Russian folk songs, also excellent, and then eventually it recommended the song by Alyans.
I was amazed by the video clip, just some young people chilling and enjoying the song.
I'm quite happy when I can find these gems from other countries.
New Thread Dictator - My vote is for Fishy. On top of being the best fisher amongst us, he just runs lots and runs more than he posts so the busy people will be able to follow the thread. The only downside is that he didn't approve of me running the marathon in speedos, but I can forgive him for that 😇
me - For a few months now I had the dream of squatting 1x my body weight.
I honestly thought it would take maybe years to achieve this, or maybe it would never happen.
Yet somehow, surprisingly, yesterday I squatted 81kg, 1.02x my body weight. I know for most that is rookie numbers, but I've worked so hard for this. Cool stuff!
Problem Child
Jblack I train on lunch at work as much as possible. I wake up and start my weekend long runs at 5 or 5:30 am so I'm home and able to do "dad duties" for my family. It's the only way I've been able to get it done. When I had my first child I brought him with me in a running stroller for my long runs. I MAKE time for marathon training, and I've grown a lot as a runner. Juping from 20 to 40 miles is a big jump. You build from 20 to 30. After a few weeks you bump it to 35. When you're at 35 for a few weeks you make it to 40 and realize it isn't THAT much more time.
50-70 mile weeks....I MAKE time for it. I would run while the family ate dinner, or when the kid(s) were asleep. Sucks to start workouts at 8pm and finish at 9:30 then realize it is 10pm. It's what I did to go do what I wanted. Even worse was training all winter with "record snow" nonsense.
So you just pick a point, then move the bar higher, and look back at your accomplishments as encouragement to set the bar higher.
WC Man...I cant imagine a workout so hard and taxing the RECOVERY hurt. It doesn't matter what pace it's done at either. Big kudos to pushing it hard.
Flavio I second any nomination other than myself.
My week:
Umm...I passed the City Police physical test. I did 1.5 miles in something like 10:10. It was funny when second place finished and commented on how fast I was and him thinking I would pass him, or maybe that I DID pass him. I just went at Marathon pace, or what I thought it was. It was 6 days after running CIM.
THEN, I did a physical test for the State police and did the 1.5 mile run (1/2 mile out and back runs) at 9:45 because at lap 2 I heard them tell me I was at 6:00 so I wanted to be under 10 minutes.
Now its background. I thought about asking darkwave to doxx me so I could find out what they'd want to look into more, but I'm not sure it would help.
I also picked up some TRX ambitions. The logic is "I'm getting older" and also "It might help with some running if I do it more consistently." Previous RP enjoyed lifting weights. Now...I feel like I'm just more interested in being lazy. I'm trying to break the habit. Also the Garmin Ab AMRAP workout is killer. I've moved the bar higher with some inconsistent training for 6 weeks. I force myself to do it because it is a 10 minute workout. It isn't an hour. I'm trying to balance TRX, 5k training, and Ab/Core strength during the winter. Goal is to hit it hard in 2024 and get excited about New York and/or other stupid ideas.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
Dad on the run.
Running Problem - Yea, my job before this I was able to workout on lunch as we had a small gym and man was it nice. Unfortunately, the job sucked and I hated it. Now I love my new job but don't have anywhere to run on lunch. You couldn't pay me to go out and run in the area where I work. Just recently there was a shooting right outside my work area, before that was shooting at the gas station down the road, just not worth the risk IMO. Right now I run 5 days a week and 2 of those are Saturday/Sunday where I get up before everyone else and get my run in. The other 3 are during the week so I usually do those from 4-5 and my wife drops off the two oldest kids and they run as well. Otherwise, I will wait until the twins are down for the night and go to the park and run then.
I also still feel like I haven't recovered completely from the blood donation because my muscles just feel more fatigued than usual and don't seem to recover from day to day like they were doing.
CommanderKeen - I can't imagine being married with 4 kids, I would never have time to put in 105 miles per week, but then again I have no desire to do an ultra. My slow miles are also still 10:00-10:30 so if I can eventually get those down to where my slow runs are in the 8s that alone will help me squeeze in a few extra miles a week. Right now I'm hitting 20-25 and I think my training plan peaks at low 30s. For me I think 35-40 miles a week would be more than sufficient, but I guess only time will tell.
MMerkle - It is already getting a lot easier. I remember when I first started back, just getting a solid 3 miles in was rough and my legs hurt for days after. Now most of my runs are at minimum 4.5-5miles and while I'm still fatigued it is getting easier, well at least on the recovery run days. Speed work still sucks, lol.
Chasing the sub 20 5K.
Think of it as feeling like the day after a marathon, but without the soreness and stiffness, just lack of energy to do anything.
Speed Surplus
Mark - Congrats on the CR!
jblackjr - You'd be surprised what you can get used to. I used to ache so much when I started running again...after a 25 mile week. I'm not a high mileage guy by any means, but I eventually got to the point where I could do 40-50 regularly and still feel fresh as a daisy. Had the same "aches after 20-25 mile weeks" coming back from my achilles surgery, but now I'm already used to it, and can go an hour without any ill effects the next day.
5:27 / 18:49 / 40:32 / 88:12 / 3:12