Hit the wall - pacing or training? (Read 177 times)

Hi all,

Raced the NJ marathon yesterday, hit the wall badly and want some feedback from experienced marathoners.  This was my first road marathon, although I've been running and racing seriously for a long time.  Based on PRs at shorter distances, my "A" goal was under 2:57, "B" goal was under 3:00.  I followed the Hansons advanced plan almost to a T, increasing the mileage by 10-15% (mostly on the easy days).  "Strength" workouts were at 6:35 pace, MP pace workouts were between 6:38 and 6:48.  Did a half as a training run 4 weeks out, not a race, and ran a comfortable 1:25.  Training went perfect, no injuries, illness, etc. - I felt prepared and confident.

Conditions were fine, course was fine, very well organized race.  Went out at 6:40s (2:55 pace), felt fine and was clicking off miles comfortably at that pace.  Thought to myself that I should be running 6:45-50s, but what's 5-10 seconds?  Half at 1:27:30, kept at 6:40s through 19, started to strain and ran a few 7:10 miles, then hit a wall - hamstrings cramped to the point that I couldn't even move and had to stretch out for a couple of minutes on a curb, managed to start running again, had to stop a couple more times but basically shuffled the last 4 miles (9:09 avg pace) to a 3:07 finish.

I knew I was going out too fast, but convinced myself that it was just a little too fast.  In hindsight, I should have just gone with the 3:00 pacer and picked it up at 20 if I was feeling good.  I don't think hydration or nutrition were issues - I drank regularly (water, only a little gatorade), ate energy gels at 00:45, 1:30 and 2:15.  Oh well, now I have to run another one.

My main question:  what does my performance say about my training?  Should I train the same for my next race and just run smarter?  Or does my poor pacing mean I can't tell anything about my training because I didn't give myself a chance to hit my goals?

Secondary question:  in a perfectly paced marathon, how are you supposed to feel at mile 13?  at mile 20?  Like you've been jogging? Comfortably tired, or not tired at all?

This sounds nearly identical to my first marathon, Bayshore in 2015 - followed the Hanson plan, all workouts went great, went out really comfortably in 1:26 (goal was sub 3) through the half and held that pace pretty comfortably through 20 miles.  Caught a piano at 22 and ran ~7:30s to stumble in at 2:59:52.   I do think we both went out a little fast since almost all great races are negative splits.  For me, I also found that the Hanson plan didn't have long enough long runs.  If memory serves it maxed at 16 miles and while that might be physiologically ok, it was a bit terrifying to not have experience with nutrition, energy management, or anything else for the last hour plus of the race.  I imagine your fitness was/is great, your training was done right, you went out a little fast and were potentially not acclimated to longer distances.   But I also suspect different training programs work better for some than others so it might be a matter of finding what works for you.

Hi all,

Raced the NJ marathon yesterday, hit the wall badly and want some feedback from experienced marathoners.  This was my first road marathon, although I've been running and racing seriously for a long time.  Based on PRs at shorter distances, my "A" goal was under 2:57, "B" goal was under 3:00.  I followed the Hansons advanced plan almost to a T, increasing the mileage by 10-15% (mostly on the easy days).  "Strength" workouts were at 6:35 pace, MP pace workouts were between 6:38 and 6:48.  Did a half as a training run 4 weeks out, not a race, and ran a comfortable 1:25.  Training went perfect, no injuries, illness, etc. - I felt prepared and confident.

 

Conditions were fine, course was fine, very well organized race.  Went out at 6:40s (2:55 pace), felt fine and was clicking off miles comfortably at that pace.  Thought to myself that I should be running 6:45-50s, but what's 5-10 seconds?  Half at 1:27:30, kept at 6:40s through 19, started to strain and ran a few 7:10 miles, then hit a wall - hamstrings cramped to the point that I couldn't even move and had to stretch out for a couple of minutes on a curb, managed to start running again, had to stop a couple more times but basically shuffled the last 4 miles (9:09 avg pace) to a 3:07 finish.

 

I knew I was going out too fast, but convinced myself that it was just a little too fast.  In hindsight, I should have just gone with the 3:00 pacer and picked it up at 20 if I was feeling good.  I don't think hydration or nutrition were issues - I drank regularly (water, only a little gatorade), ate energy gels at 00:45, 1:30 and 2:15.  Oh well, now I have to run another one.

 

My main question:  what does my performance say about my training?  Should I train the same for my next race and just run smarter?  Or does my poor pacing mean I can't tell anything about my training because I didn't give myself a chance to hit my goals?

 

Secondary question:  in a perfectly paced marathon, how are you supposed to feel at mile 13?  at mile 20?  Like you've been jogging? Comfortably tired, or not tired at all?

Here are some thoughts to go through ... Since you are an experiment of one and you get to be the mad scientist that does the experimenting ... take it or leave it.

Hitting the wall has nothing to do with cramps - So I am not sure if you hit the wall

Hitting the wall is when you become glycogen depleted to the point that your body cuts off 100% of Glycogen to your muscles.  This is a defence mechanism, because your muscles can survive without Glycogen, but your brain cannot.  Glycogen is the only fuel your brain can use.

They call it the wall because instantaneously you will go from 6:40 pace to much slower.  To burn fat as fuel your muscles need significantly more oxygen.  (I have read some recent articles that have challenged the above long held belief)

When one becomes dehydrated and loses even 5% of body mass it can have a 10% plus impact on performance.  Dehydration would be a slower more gradual impact on performance as your blood thickens and your heart has to work harder to transport oxygen.  It would also result in cramping etc.

Normally 60-80% of people that say they hit the wall actually either paced too fast and accumulated too much lactic acid or became dehydrated ... or both.

My marathon experiences have been - If I am pacing at optimal pace, the race becomes really hard at 18-21 miles and it takes absolute focus and effort to maintain that pace the last 10k.  Often  the last 10k experience included heart rate at or near max, very light headed to the point of tunnel vision and wanting to slow down every step.  My mottos were "if you can take 10 more steps at this pace you can do 100 and 1000 and whatever it takes to not slow down" and "You can slow down when when you pass out"

In you situation it is possible that 

1)  You went out too fast

2)  You became dehydrated

3)  You might have become glycogen depleted (The faster you go the higher % glycogen versus fat is used per mile)

4)  Your cramping could be hydration, electrolyte of muscle fatigue ???

5)  You can't tough your way through cramping ... But very few people realize what they can force their body to do (Will has to be strong when the body is weak)

My advice

*  Pacing is critical - Do not get greedy until mile 20 (5-10 seconds is enough to blow you up)

*  Review your fueling, hydration and electrolyte strategy (Although I usually do not worry about electrolytes unless really warn)

*  If you can get to miles 20 on pace next time ... decide how much pain you want to endure.  It is amazing what you can force your body to do

*  I am not familiar with Hansons ... but I would try and  fit in a 12 & 15 miles at Marathon pace at the end of a 20 - 22 miler.

*  Shake off this race - Getting a marathon perfect is really hard and I have never finished a marathon not thinking I could not have dome something slightly different and got at least 1 minute better time.

I had a pretty well paced race last fall. 13 felt comfortably hard and I wasn't sure I could hang on. Soon after mile 20 it felt like the middle of a 10k.

a 3:07 finish.

 

And really, this isn't bad for your first marathon. Running a marathon is the only way to get marathon experience.

I've never understood how dehydration or electrolyte imbalance would cause cramping in only the legs and not systemically.

I have had post-marathon cramps in the most peculiar places; muscles I didn't know I had, and not ones I'd expect to be particularly taxed by running.

 Somewhere around 22-23 all I can think of is when will this be over.

This says it all.

Appreciate everyone's input and personal experiences.  I beefed up the Hansons plan and got up to a 19 mi long run at my 70 mi peak, and was coming off a decent base (45-50 mpw throughout 2016), but looking back I only had 3 runs over 2 hours.  Will take some time to think about it, pick a fall marathon, and probably stick with the same training but add some more MP at the finish of long runs.  And really not start out too fast next time.

Overall this sounds like pretty decent training.

The plain truth is you played the classic rookie mistake and went out too fast and fooled yourself into thinking it was okay because it felt so easy.  Nothing to be ashamed about, we've all done it.  I went out 10 miles at 2:40 pace in my first marathon and finished in 2:53, literally 50 yards from losing all vision and passing out from lack of glucose.

In a well-paced marathon 13 miles will feel like you're just starting to feel the effort and wonder if you can double back in that.  20 miles is going to feel brutal, like that last 6 miles will be eternity yet you are still holding pace.  The last three miles are a real mental game to force the effort to continue or even speed up.

My best paced marathon was a 2:29.  I did go out a bit fast over the first 6 as I got caught out of position in the queue at the start and was rushing to get up to position.  I caught myself and slowed down, and ran really well until 23 when the mere 30 seconds I went out fast in the first 6 came back to bite me.  There was a guy I'd meant to run the whole race with, I caught him at 6 miles and that's when I slowed down.  I ran with him until 23 when he was able to pull away...he's paced it perfect.  His chip time beat me by 1 second due to the 30 seconds I had to make up to reach the starting line.

I am and even at my fastest was a lot slower than you, but 10 seconds a mile is a lot in a marathon at the edge of your ability.    When well trained, usually the time my half race pace and marathon race pace is only 20 seconds per mile different.