The Waltons aka Advanced Half Marathon Training Thread - 2022 edition (Read 421 times)

Fredford66


Running Musician

     

     

    Fred so nice to have your son run with you alot. Your conversations sound fairly intellectual  my son and I would likely be discussing surfboards 

     

     

    I hit my 50km goal last week. Because of the relatively low mileage,  my runs are slightly faster than if I had more volume.

    I see the uploads on the log here are still an issue. At least we have strava as a backup if this keeps failing.

     

    Piwi - Believe me the subject of our discussion was rare.  I don't know how we got onto it, but most of the time he's talking my ear off about video games.  Nice job on hitting your 50k goal.

    5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 38:57 (11/22); 10k 49:24 (10/22); Half 1:48:32 (10/22)

    Upcoming race(s): Winter Series #2 Trail 5k, 12/18; Hangover 5k, 1/1/23
    Marky_Mark_17


      James - yes, you're right - it's tough work in December when it's normally held.  There's a few shady spots but not more than 3-4km worth.  The changes in surface are fun but also tough work... nothing as dangerous as that one you mentioned in your race! I hope no-one crashed out there.

       

      Keen - well done on the 5k, that was an excellent result.  You know you have to write a RR right?  There's a rule for that.

       

      Fred - sounds like fun running with your son.  I ran with a work colleague last Wed, amazing how much faster the miles go when you have someone to chat to.

       

      Piwi - yeah it's been 3.5 months which is a looooong time between races for me.  I've put some good training in, but not expecting miracles on Sunday just given how susceptible that course is to wind.  Good chance to see where I'm at though (and everyone else).  The good news is I have at least one race a month for the next little while!

      3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

      10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

      * Net downhill course

      Last race: Run the Point 10k, 27 Nov, 35:00, 1st overall

      Up next: Speights West Coaster, 10 Dec

      "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

      watsonc123


        Half marathons - I've ran one pure point to point. One that was sort of point to point but there a significant there and back within it.   A few there and back.  I think that loops is probably been most common for my races.  From 2017 onwards, I've only raced 6 half's.  This year will only end up as one, which will be a loop (Wairarapa).

        Mark, James and Fred 0- nice weeks.

         

        Keen - impressive big week as usual.

         

        My week was pretty good.  Wednesday was a really good run.  Saturday was OK, started well but faded substantially over the last 10km.

         

        Weekly for period: From: 08/08/2022 To 14/08/2022

        Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
        in m
        08/08 Evening Run 3.12 5.02 00:26:11 08:24 05:13 0
        10/08 Afternoon Run - 3 * Kingsley Heights Water Tank 8.29 13.35 01:12:38 08:46 05:26 354
        11/08 Evening Run 4.50 7.24 00:36:59 08:13 05:06 15
        12/08 Afternoon Run 3.24 5.22 00:28:53 08:55 05:32 9
        13/08 Morning Run - Long Run 20.03 32.22 02:43:35 08:10 05:05 345
        14/08 Football Refereeing - 1st Half 0.68 1.09 00:26:00 38:14 23:51 0
        14/08 Football Refereeing - 2nd Half 0.75 1.21 00:25:54 34:32 21:24 0

        Total distance: 65.35km

         

        I have the Wellington Road Champs this coming Saturday.

         

        Flavio - aim is 39:58

         

        Last night (Monday) I ran for the first time in my Adios Pro 2 which I bought a few months ago.  They felt different to what I expected, not in a bad way, just different.  I'll be racing on Saturday, so hopefully they'll be good.

        PRs: 5km 18:43 (Dec 2015), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:26:16 (Sep 2016), full 3:09:28 (Jun 2015)

         

        40+ PRs: 5km 19:31 (Oct 2020), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:29:39 (Jun 2018), full 3:13:55 (Sep 2022)

          Watson nice week. A 1 sec pb is a good target 

          50+ PBs -  

          5k 18.21 Hagley Parkrun  July 21      82.27 % age grade

          10k TT 37.21 may 2nd 2021 strava run 82.51 % age grade

          Half marathon  1.23.30 may 21 80.11 % age grade

          " If you don't use it you lose it,  but if you use it, it wears out.

          Somewhere in between is about right "      

           

          Marky_Mark_17


            Watson - is Wellington road champs on the usual course or the course being used for Nationals?

            3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

            10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

            * Net downhill course

            Last race: Run the Point 10k, 27 Nov, 35:00, 1st overall

            Up next: Speights West Coaster, 10 Dec

            "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

            Fredford66


            Running Musician

               

              Fred - sounds like fun running with your son.  I ran with a work colleague last Wed, amazing how much faster the miles go when you have someone to chat to.

               

               

              Mark - Yes, indeed.  I've missed having my usual RP around these past several week.

               

              Watson - Good luck in your 10k.  I hope the shoes work out for you.

               

              Keen - Congrats on the 5k PR!  I can't say I ever have a problem lapping slower runners on the second loop of a half, but having had to deal with 10k and 5k runners sharing a course, I can see your issue with multi-lap halves.  Yes, it is nice to have a log that lets me see what progress I've made.  I keep wondering when the day will come when speed improvements from training finally get caught by the reality of getting older.

               

              James - Thanks.  I hope the hamstrings start to get better.  A midnight 5k would be interesting for me.  I'd probably sleep for a couple of hours, then set an 11:00 alarm (depending on how far I had to travel to the race).

              5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 38:57 (11/22); 10k 49:24 (10/22); Half 1:48:32 (10/22)

              Upcoming race(s): Winter Series #2 Trail 5k, 12/18; Hangover 5k, 1/1/23
              CommanderKeen


              Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                Fred - Thanks!
                This past 5k was the only one I've ever lapped anyone during a loop, but it wasn't a problem because they were well off the tangent at the time. Mostly traffic is a problem for everyone (front, middle, and back of the pack) during the typical out-and-backs on a lake trail that's only wide enough for 3 people to pass.v


                Hashiritai - Race you to sub-18? If your 10k turns out anything like your workout suggests you'll be more than in line for it.

                5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22

                 

                Upcoming Races:

                 

                CommanderKeen


                Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                  Riverside 5000 Race Report


                  The day before this race I resigned myself to it not happening. DW is a librarian and on a state book award committee with a meeting on the far side of OKC the day of the race, which necessitated someone watch the kiddos as we went our separate ways. Our first babysitter had some issues pop up and backed out, but my best and favorite Sister-in-Law stepped up (she has a daughter the same age as DD1).


                  Saved from the prospect of yet another solo track time trial, I headed off to a cheap Air BnB the night before the race so I could get some extra sleep instead of having to leave the house by 4:30am to make sure I was there in plenty of time for a warm-up, etc.


                  I showed up to the race about 75 minutes early wanting to get my bib first thing, but the table for this wasn't set up yet. I killed a bit of time then set off on an easy 4 mile warm-up on the river trail that was used for my spring HM. By this time bib pickup was ready, so I grabbed that and headed off to put on the fancy race shoes (Asics Metaspeed Sky).


                  The weather wasn't ideal overall, but was certainly better than what we've all been putting up in training. 72F/22.2C is certainly better than the more usual morning "lows" of closer to 82F/27.8C, and there was also a 5mph/8kmh wind that would be with us for all the "out" sections and against us for the "back" portions.


                  The course itself was something of a two loop lollipop - out on the north-bound side of the road, turn around a median and most of the way back on the south-bound side of the road, around a median again to the north-bound side of the road, hit the first turnaround again and then back to the finish on the south-bound side.


                  After a few final strides I lined up in about the 3rd row. Farther back than I would normally want in a fairly local race, but there were some fairly large cash prizes for top 3 men/women as well as for masters and so there were plenty of fast people who showed up.


                  The horn went off and the race started quite smoothly - there were separate races for adults and under 18s, which eliminated most of the issues with kids lining up far in excess of their abilities. I didn't look at my watch for the first 400m or so, but when I did found that I was going a good deal faster than the 5:50/mi target suggested by my coach. Typically I'll use power (from Stryd) to guide a race effort as well, but having made a few changes my guidance from it was more of a "don't go below 345W" target I had gotten from something of a predictor workout. I backed off a bit but still passed the first water stop at 1km a few seconds ahead of where I wanted to be. To this point everyone seemed to be following the tangent (quite an oddity), which was to the left side of the road owing to a slight bend in that direction. I passed a few people here, but other wise there wasn't a lot of jockeying for position that I could see.

                  KM 1: 3:35, 355W


                  Ok, that was a tad fast. But it was with the wind I tell myself, so perhaps that won't derail me much if any. The road starts to take a gentle curve to the right and exactly no one that I could see changed their line - they all stayed on the left-hand side of the road. The leaders may well have run the same tangent as I did, but even by this point they were so far ahead that I couldn't tell.
                  I backed off the effort a little bit but was still able to pass a few people just before the turnaround. Coming at the turnaround from the tangent off the outside of the road lead to a slightly more gentle turn and I found myself right behind another runner.

                  "This is great, I have a windshield!" was a fleeting thought but glancing down at my watch showed 6:0x/mi, which wasn't at all acceptable. I moved around him and set my eyes on the next couple runners ahead of me.

                  KM 2: 3:40, 355W


                  Well, I backed off just a bit too much, it seemed. I now tried picking things up just a bit while moving into the gentle headwind. After the turn the course was now curving slightly to the left, again making that side the shortest path. About halfway to the next turnaround the road started a bit of a curve to the right, and again everyone I could see stuck to that side instead of shifting their line. By this point I'm somewhat in the mode of "I don't necessarily have to run faster than anyone to pass them, I just have to run a shorter distance".

                  Getting close to the turnaround there was a line of cones in the middle of the road to separate people who were about to go out for their second loop and people heading to the finish. I cut right by this trying to follow the tangent and passed my coach and his wife (both having their own race issues) just before the turn and headed out for that last loop.


                  By now I'm really starting to feel the effort and have mixed feeling about having the wind at my back again. On the one hand I can now run faster with less effort, but a crosswind or even headwind feels better from a "cool you down" perspective.


                  KM 3: 3:40, 355W


                  Blasted wind. Yeah, that's it. I'd totally be running faster if that KM wasn't primarily into the wind. I check my watch and I'm just right at or slightly slower than goal pace. Try to pick it up a little going with the wind now. Make sure to run that tangent again when the road curves to the right. I pass a few people here who were run/walking the race, but given that they were also off the best line there wasn't any need to weave around or through them and I try keeping my eyes on those ahead of me. Little else is even entering my mind at this point - I'm ignoring my watch because even it seems like too much else to consider as some tunnel vision develops.


                  Just after the turn I pass another couple of people and somehow manage to do the math and tell myself "not quite a mile left to catch anyone else".


                  KM 4: 3:38, 353W


                  Things are super-fuzzy from here on. I don't really remember anything happening to my left (where other runners were finishing their second loop) or to the right (on the trail I used for my warm-up and it only makes sense that others were doing the same) and mostly have a "run faster" buzz in the back of my mind.


                  I reach the point just before the second turnaround where the cones start (prompting me to stick to the right) and I do manage to think "Nope. Screw that. That's not the tangent, I don't to run that far, and the course cert said 'no restrictions'".

                   

                  Interestingly enough, the few people in visual range did largely decide to run the tangent here rather than following the direction of the orange cones. I pass one guy here and pour on all the effort I can (a little more won't kill me, will it?) in attempts to catch the woman ahead of me (not even close) and finish just a tiny bit behind the other guy I was chasing (chip time had me ~.6 sec ahead of him, though).
                  As I was approaching the finish I could see that sub-18 wasn't going to happen but that I'd be very close either way to my goal.


                  I cross the line, very nearly plow over some clueless high school kids who were walking through the finishing chute, and find a very beautiful piece of curb upon which I can sit and suck wind more effectively without the risks now inherent to maintaining a standing posture.


                  KM 5: 3:35, 373W
                  Total time: 18:05


                  After the world opened back up thanks to my brain getting an adequate volume of oxygen I didn't even consider checking the official results to see my time - I knew I had a good PR and was plenty happy with that general thought and knowing that I had never before pushed that hard in a race. Seeing after a cool-down that I had actually hit my goal time was another nice high, though.
                  I don't think I had anything at all left after the race, which I think oddly contributed to how "not terrible" the race felt. I was so focused on just what was ahead of me that I don't really remember checking on my breathing or how my legs were feeling for at least the last 2k.


                  A 9 second PR is certainly quite nice in and of itself, but I do think I could break 18 by a decent margin given better conditions. As my next 5k is about a month away and (supposedly) our 100F/37.8C+ days are supposedly behind us I'm certainly hopeful that I'll be able to get a solid chance well in advance of a turkey trot prior to CIM.

                  5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22

                   

                  Upcoming Races:

                   

                  SteveChCh


                  Hot Weather Complainer

                    Keen - Really enjoyed the race report.  Great work running the tangents and not taking out the oblivious walkers at the end.  It sounds like far less than ideal conditions which makes a PR an amazing effort.  I stand by saying that I think you can go significantly faster than 18 in better racing conditions.

                     

                    Watson - Your training has really picked up in the last few months.  Good luck in the 10km.

                     

                    James - A midnight 5km will be very interesting.  I think I'd try a nap in the afternoon (I'd have to get up very early to be able to do that).

                    Net Downhill PB Southern Lakes Half Marathon 2022 1:27:32, Flat Course PB Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

                    Recent Races:   Melbourne Marathon 3:35:03 October 2, 2022, Southern Lakes Half Marathon 1:27:32 May 7, 2022, Motorway 10km 40:49 February 27, 2022, Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

                    Race plan:  Christchurch Marathon April 16, 2023, New York Marathon 2024

                    Marky_Mark_17


                      Keen - huge congrats.  That is a big result given the conditions.  Temp is less of a factor over 5k than for longer distances but at that level it's still very much a factor.  And... people walking through the finishing chute... what the hell?!

                      3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)  

                      10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                      * Net downhill course

                      Last race: Run the Point 10k, 27 Nov, 35:00, 1st overall

                      Up next: Speights West Coaster, 10 Dec

                      "CONSISTENCY IS KING"


                      On the roads again...

                        Riverside 5000 Race Report...

                         

                         

                        Excellent race report and a well-earned PR under summer conditions! Hope you do get a shot at sub-18 in September.

                        It's a love-hate relationship with the wind on there races. As you observe, a headwind is cooler... but, but, aargh... the pace, the pace!
                        Personally, I like some breeze late in the racer rather than going out, as you had. Better cooling effect when I need it.


                        It always amazes me how people don't run the tangents i road races! I ran a 10k recently on a fast but very twisty course, outline below (San Diegans might recognize it as Lake Miramar). 
                        The part up to and around the 5-mile loop is run on a narrow road, about 4-6m. wide. For the first 4 miles of the loop, people were passing me regularly on the straights, but not running the tangents. Unless they were much faster, I'd pass them back on the next sharp turn, without changing pace at all. 

                        I wondered how much the tangents saved, so I added the angles on all the turns -- roughly 3,340 degrees -- and 9-1/4 full circles(!). The formula for circumference of a circle is 2πr, On a track the lanes are 4' / 1.22m wide, so one lap on the track, one lane wider than the tangent costs ~7.7m. The same approach can be taken for turns on a road course -- how many full circles in the turns, and how far away from ideal are people running?

                        For my Lake Miramar course, someone running in the middle of the road (say, 2m from the edge) vs, the tangents, they would add 2 x π x 2m x 9.25 full circles, so 116m for the whole loop. That'll get me past a lot of runners at my slow end of the field!.

                         

                        This course is an extreme example, but running tangents, even on a few 90⁰ turns, is worthwhile!

                        Neil

                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I'm here to tell you that fast is better. I've always believed this, in spite of the trouble it's caused me. - Hunter S. Thompson

                        watsonc123


                          Keen - nice RR, and PR congrats.  I presume you meant Asics rather than Mizuno?

                           

                          Mark - it's the usual Wainuiomata course, which is 1.25km stretch of road, slightly uphill, then back down, times four.  Although the start is slightly shorter and end slightly further.  So the first laps is a little less than 2.5km, and the last a little more.

                          PRs: 5km 18:43 (Dec 2015), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:26:16 (Sep 2016), full 3:09:28 (Jun 2015)

                           

                          40+ PRs: 5km 19:31 (Oct 2020), 10km 39:59 (Sep 2020), half 1:29:39 (Jun 2018), full 3:13:55 (Sep 2022)

                          zebano


                            James  I'm awaiting that RR. A midnight race sounds great.

                             

                            I'm looking for advice here (especially Flavio) since I'm not currently working with a coach. I ran a 2:34 800 last night and goal 1 is to get that below 2:30 which I think I can do easily if I just keep training (legs didn't feel good yesterday and I think the right day might just do it) but all of a sudden I'm dreaming about sub 2:20 as a big goal and also racing a 400 or three to see if I can touch that minute barrier which will absolutely take some work (last time I raced a 400 was the leadoff leg of a 4x400 two years ago and I ran :63).

                             

                            What do I need to do to gear my training a bit more toward middle distance? Lifting heavy? hill sprints? sprint work on the track? Just read JD's book again?

                            1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

                            Fredford66


                            Running Musician

                              Keen - Nice race report.  I have also been frustrated by people who slow it down just before the finish and clog up the chute.  Well done despite them.

                               

                              On Tangets - I always try to run the tangents.  There's a stretch in the last mile or so of the Philadelphia Marathon and Half Marathon courses where the road is two lanes in each direction and goes through a big S curve.  Both times I've run there, I've stuck to the tangents, but it has amazed me how almost everyone else was sticking to the double yellow line down the middle of the road.  Some guy on the sidelines even yelled encouragement to me, saying I was the only one doing it right.  I see similar things on closed course where people will nevertheless stick to one side of the road rather than run the tangent.  Ah well, to each their own.

                               

                              My track work shifted gears today to longer, but slower runs. Today was 6 x 1 mile at almost 10k pace with 400m recoveries. I didn't want to go, and when I got to the track, my first interval didn't feel good, but things got better and I finished all the intervals on time (well, one of the was 2 seconds slow...).  It was hard to keep the pace on the last two 1-mile intervals, but tired as I was by then, I was feeling much better than earlier in the run (if that makes any sense). 10.2 miles on the day.

                              5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 38:57 (11/22); 10k 49:24 (10/22); Half 1:48:32 (10/22)

                              Upcoming race(s): Winter Series #2 Trail 5k, 12/18; Hangover 5k, 1/1/23
                              Fredford66


                              Running Musician

                                James  I'm awaiting that RR. A midnight race sounds great.

                                 

                                I'm looking for advice here (especially Flavio) since I'm not currently working with a coach. I ran a 2:34 800 last night and goal 1 is to get that below 2:30 which I think I can do easily if I just keep training (legs didn't feel good yesterday and I think the right day might just do it) but all of a sudden I'm dreaming about sub 2:20 as a big goal and also racing a 400 or three to see if I can touch that minute barrier which will absolutely take some work (last time I raced a 400 was the leadoff leg of a 4x400 two years ago and I ran :63).

                                 

                                What do I need to do to gear my training a bit more toward middle distance? Lifting heavy? hill sprints? sprint work on the track? Just read JD's book again?

                                 

                                Sorry, I can't offer any input here.  Based on what I race, "middle distance" is a 10k.  I have no experience racing anything shorter than 5k.  I don't think you can go wrong re-reading Daniels.

                                5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 38:57 (11/22); 10k 49:24 (10/22); Half 1:48:32 (10/22)

                                Upcoming race(s): Winter Series #2 Trail 5k, 12/18; Hangover 5k, 1/1/23