Forums >Racing>2018 Sub-3. No rules. Run.
RIP Milkman
The entire discussion around splits has been interesting. I think part of the reason I always negative split isn’t necessarily bad planning, but it just takes me a bit of time to get into race pace, especially in a marathon. There is just no way I would try to hit race pace out of the gate because then as I warm up, chances are I’ll start going MP - 10 seconds which would be a disaster. I guess that means I’m bad at pacing myself at the start, but especially in a race like NYC where you’re standing around for over an hour in your corral, I can’t fire off MP in mile 1.
JT - good to see you back out there running, the fitness and leg strength will return faster than you think. Good job on getting all the split information out there.
Piwi - I wonder how aggressive we can get with your time. As JT said you have a lot inherent ability wit the times you’re posting with little training. A moose mug would be pretty special, but it would probably require a significant increase in mileage and I know you’ve spoken in the past that your body tends to break down if you go over 70 mpw. But I guess we have a long time to figure this out
Kram - I run in the Brooks Pure Flow for my easy runs. Switched over to them in 2014 as I was getting a lot of upper leg injuries and moving to a lower heel to toe drop shoe has helped tremendously. I feel like you know your body well enough to know what the right race pace is, but I think especially for you, going conservative is the right route (with a plan to NEGATIVE SPLIT ). Your workouts have indicated you’re probably in sub 2:55 shape, so maybe go for 6:40 and re-evaluate around 18-20?
Me - Foot actually felt better after the 13 mile run than before. Still hurts but definitely a bit better. Gotta love taper madness. With all the talk of treadmills, I am very sore after my 2 runs on the mill over the weekend. I didn’t think it would really use my muscles differently, but I guess it does? My quads feel like I ran 22, not 13. You would think it would be the opposite, i.e. treadmills have some give so they’re softer on you.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Thanks for the nice words everyone. I sure am happy to have joined the #sub3 group, and I'm glad I have a nice pic to show for, too!
Some people have to work really hard to get into Boston, but since I started running at 42, and ran my first marathon at age 45, I qualified by over 10 minutes in my first (being older made it easier). Not bragging. Just explaining that I had to work MUCH harder to get a sub 3, because a sub 3 is not adjusted for age, and therefore It is that much sweeter to have reached that goal of mine.
JTReeves Yes, a Maiden fan, but I don't go to concerts anymore. I'm too old (in my head) for that.
finbad I'm giving myself time to recover before I decide what I'm going to do next as far as racing goes. I started my run commutes back this morning (the base of my training), and I'll be happy to be doing just that and some fun runs on the weekends for a couple of weeks. Then, I'll decide.
That positive/negative split discussion is interesting. The slight positive split argument has a good case, IMO.
Personnally, though, I'll take a negative split any day, as crossing the finish line feeling strong is more fun than when you've been trying to hold on for half of the race.
Slingrunner ive never run on a treadmill but would the no wind thing be a factor. When we run outside we create our own apparent wind just by moving into still air.
Piwi: I regularly create my own wind when running but I think it's different from what you are talking about . Luckily most my runs are solo so nobody gets offended.
Kram: Put me down as a vote for the "what the hell", more aggressive approach for your race this weekend. Even though you've had less mileage this cycle than your usual, I think with the fitness you have and also your experience from previous marathons, you can afford to ride the razor's edge.
BTW, I agree with you; if you cross the finish of your marathon feeling great, you obviously did not go all out, and could have gone faster IMHO. Racing to the limit of your fitness in a marathon seems, at least to me, to require that you will not feel very good in the last few miles.
Cyberic: I have not seen Maiden since 1991 but they were hands down the best live act I have ever seen, and always have been one of my favorite bands, so even though I am old I'd go to see them if they tour next year.
2:52:16 (2018)
Reeves ha yes I often let one rip while running then take a guilty glance around to make sure no one heard.....
Cyberic I may have rocked an Iron Maiden T shirt back in the 80s
Jmac good to hear you feel better. Get off that mill if you are not used to it. Dont try anything new !
Dont be too aggressive with my time its going to be tough to get into sub 3 form. Although I feel good 50 is not 45 and sometimes i struggle to get off the couch as my hips and lower back are so sore. Unlike Cal and Mikey I need to be in about 17.30-18 min 5k form and 1.20-1.23 half to have a shot at sub 3. I cant sustain the big mileage but hopefully I have some sort of accumulated strength after these years running now that will allow me to run more.
Fin hi. You are in Scotland right and smokin fast ? I have you on my strava Im sure.
Kram you are up this weekend right ? Good luck. Yeah jet lag could be an issue for me but Im going a week early so hopefully I can adjust.
I watched that Valencia half yesterday. Wow he ran the 2nd 10k in the 11th fastest road 10k ever. 2.45/km I wish I could run one 3.00 km
Its hard not to be suspicious as doping is widespread in Kenya. They are so desperate to make money.
My last week was not quite 40 miles as I had sharp calf pain which made me limp. Thats now a dull ache but Im too scared to do speedwork.
Ive got 4 x 50 mile weeks prior to that.
55+ PBs 5k 18:36 June 3rd TT
" If you don't use it you lose it, but if you use it, it wears out.
Somewhere in between is about right "
Cyber - I love that finish photo!
JTReeves - Get well
Joining the 2018 sub3 group a little late this year. I have been reading the thread for awhile to get motivated. It's fun to see a lot of familiar names from 2015. Every time I post a goal on a forum, I get hurt, so I've been superstitious and cautious.
Me: Male 39 Florida 1.75 kids
3 previous Marathons: 2013 - 3:54, 2014 - 3:25, 2015 - 3:09
My 3 previous marathons I was injured enough to disrupt my running training or not run at all for 6+ weeks leading up to the race (2013). For 2014 and 2015 I did heaps of cross training on bicycle, stationary bicycle, arc trainer, walking incline treadmill. With work obligations and being a dad obligations, I can no longer put in 2-3 hours of cross training a day to compensate for not running, so I have to stay healthy if I want to take a shot at sub3. I tried to come back to running Spring 2017, my right hip blew up in the high 40s mileage. I ran through the pain for 4 weeks, but that was a huge mistake and it killed 2017. I tried to come back again Spring 2018, but a random non running related surgery put me out for 10 weeks from June-August. I was running 30-55 miles per week in May/June. I ran 3 weeks in August-Sept in the 20-30 mile per week. I ran a 5k race to gauge my lack of fitness Sep 8. and finished 22:35 or 7:17 pace. That was slower than my last race the 3:09 marathon in 2015, so that was depressing.
I have decided that I need to do something different to avoid injury. So I'm running 80%+ of my runs on soft surfaces and all easy runs until now. This is annoying, because it really limits my runs to running in the grass next to the sidewalk or driving 15-25 mins to a park. So far I have done exactly one non easy run and no long runs. In past years, I let my weight come down gradually as my mileage went up. This year, I strictly limited my diet since September and already am down to race weight from 2015, so the weight loss part is over and so is the diet :-)
Since 9/11, I have not taken a day off and I just finished 6 good weeks:
9/16 - 9/22 - 55.3 miles 9:31 pace
9/23 - 9/29 - 56.1 miles 9:25 pace
9/30 - 10/6 - 64.5 miles 9:17 pace
10/7 - 10/13 - 58.8 miles 9:09 pace
10/14 - 10-20 - 63.1 miles 9:04 pace
10/21 - 10/27 60 miles 8:45 pace
My pace dropped a lot the last few weeks, mostly due to cooler weather, 90+ days are over and running at a new park with more straight paths and fewer s turns. The running app really gives me a slow pace when I turn a lot. This week I did the first non-easy run, a moderate 8 mile run. It felt great during the run, and very beat up the next day.
So my plan is as follows:
Train 60+ miles a week working up to 70+ and gradually add quality. Maybe some day I'll try a CalBears week.
November 22 Turkey Trot - 5k - Hoping time comes down to 6:30 pace
Late December 5k - sub 6:15 pace
Mid January 5k - sub 6 pace
Early February - 1/2 marathon - sub 6:30 pace
If I can run sub 1:25 for the 1/2 I will find a April/May marathon.
Cheers!
Kram - nice week. I hesitate to bring up the most boring topic in marathoning but - do you actually think the 4% shoes are working? I think nike are just good about using their money to put the dopiest/fastest folk into their shoes. That said, I've got a pair of the cheaper non4% ones and do like them (raced from 5k to marathon in them but only PB was marathon) maybe my marathon PB needs an *
https://twitter.com/hornekerjustin/status/1055833018487717888
That spring is insane. That is not how a normal shoe works. Plates of some form or other have been used before e.g., see the old Mizuno wave plates, which acted more like a guide to control footstrike, but this full foot plate is clearly acting as a propulsion-like direct running aid. Reports from numerous sub 2:30 type people report PRs and much healthier calves at race end. These shoes are akin to the old banned swimsuits and the various golf ball/club related shenanigans. PRs make money however, so in the same way as sticky gloves make one handed catches easy in the NFL, these things may well be here to stay.
Compare these to the Sketchers elite proto-type, with what looks like a smaller carbon plate. Note the spring in the shoe mid test. Much less than the Nike monstrosity but still on the non-natural side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FyA9_mE2aI
Shoes with better cushioning are a different beast and a much more nuanced analysis is required, but I think it's clear that the carbon plate is doing something untoward here in comparison to the ideal.
Hoping to finally get to hunting down 2:40 next spring. It'll be great to have a few other people of similar madness posting.
5k: 17:32 (11/18) -- 10k: 38:47 (07/17) -- 10m: 60:23 (08/17) -- 1/2: 1:22:32 (11/17) -- full: 2:49:26 (04/17)
2020 Goals: Assault on 2:40! Next up: Toledo (Apr 26)
https://twitter.com/hornekerjustin/status/1055833018487717888 That spring is insane.
That spring is insane.
Wow!
BGS - hard to say why you have problems - even though the average pace seems high to me for sub 3 training the mileage is low, so, I would say the pace should not be a problem. Again, for the next cycle I would try to run slow but more as a base building and then introduce speed very carefully - maybe one session per week or so and see how it goes.
sling - thanks, I am OK with being at 98% percentile - 99% would probably place me into permanent "injured" category. I just wanted to clarify that slight positive split for me would come from planning giving all 100% - means you plan your pace evenly (of course if the course allows that) and slight positive split usually comes from the fact that you just too tired to keep it even by the end of the race.
Btw, my PR race (2:48:35 in Dec 2015) came with a slight negative split - 1:24:25 / 1:24:10 - but that was one of the very few with negative split)
Cal - i just don't understand how someone goes from 0 to 110 in 2 months, really absurd. You know, I don't think you ever posted your full bio, so it would be great if you did for those of us who don't know.
JMac - Yeah, I was not sure either if the things work out the way they worked out - just tried to run 13.5 every day and see if I am able to run the next day. But it's funny at some moment how the high mileage works - during my Sunday's LR the best I felt was between miles 10 till 18-19, miles were 1-4 were pretty tough and I was ready to make the LR shorter. Good luck with the coming race!
Also, I think I introduced myself the day I joined few weeks ago - maybe it was not the fullest introduction but still some - _____ Bio ______
JTReeves - one 100 miles week is not a mileage monster thing - plenty of runners were hitting that number just to never see it again for a long time Will see. But I was checking my running before I ran my first sub 3 - man, my paces were faster and my heart rate was lower. Though I hit sub 3 with some cushion and was feeling good.
Piwi - your training was always different - less mileage more speed - you have enough experience and both your marathons attempts were great success - just follow the same structure and you will be fine - do not undersell you - your execution is perfect so far
Cyberic99 - congrats. I remember I was so excited after my first sub 3 that 2 months later I ran 2:55
kram - definitely some cutback this week - but the way I feel will still be the major guide. Btw, I constantly hear about sub 2:40 attempt from you. Not sure I understand - but you, you should understand the difference between 2:49 and and 2:39 - it's not a difference between 2:59 and 2:49. Why such a lofty, I would say unwise goal - hit 2:45 first, aim for that and move from there - it will be more enjoyable - don't try to hit that "magic" race which some people here are trying to hit - I don't think our bodies work that way - it's more step by step imho than jump (ok, maybe it's jumps during first 2-3 years but then it's no jumps anymore)
finbad - yes, ramping mileage up slowly but steadily. It was a highest week for me I think, no need to get that high anymore - might try to pace a little bit faster instead? Though mileage is still a king Nice to see your cooldown week and again all those sub 2:40 talks
mt79 - Hi! Were you RWOL member? What nickname. Just continue with the mileage first doesn't matter the pace - your feeling of the low effort is your guide. Speed should come after few months - actually not speed but you should hit faster paces at the same HR and that can last for a long time. But having mileage under your belt will help with everything else for the marathon, imho.
Vaporflys - if that a cheating or not you cannot admit that it definitely would be interesting to try - though $250 plus tax for 100-200 mileage range means pretty expensive - basically paying $2 for every mile ran.
paces PRs - 5K - 5:48 / 10K - 6:05 / HM - 6:14 / FM - 6:26 per mile
Cal thanks its good to hear that from you. I always trained sensibly for marathons like 8-9 min/mile like you and Mikkey. Save the pace for workout days, and dont delude myself with unproven fitness. There are no shortcuts.
Cal - I guess I didn’t fully read through your bio, that was good enough. Quite some talent to do what you did both at the start of your running and with how you can run as much as you do without injury.
Kram - don’t listen to Cal, dream big but race smartly. We’ll determine if you can run sub 2:40 when we get to the spring but nothing wrong with thinking about that. We haven’t really had a lot of sub 2:45 guys on here lately (except for Madison) so it would be great to start seeing those more often.
4% Shoes - Keep going back and forth on this, but I did notice in my half 2 weeks ago that 25% or so of the people were wearing them. I imagine that number will be even higher at the marathon this weekend. I run in 4 MM drop shoes so I’m not sure I would respond well to them, but it’s going to become a situation where everybody is wearing them and if you’re not, you’re just giving up time. I’ll stick to my ASICS model that was made in 2014 for now.
Oh, I hear ya. I was in sub2:45 shape in the spring and then through a combination of stupidity and heavy mileage (mostly stupidity in falling off a roller I was balancing on), I earned a pelvic/sacral sfx. So, my plan had been 2:45 spring and then attack 2:40 in the autumn. Best laid plans and all that. I've gotten back to essentially full health now while negotiating some knee needle torture and recent PF along the way. So, yes 2:40 in the spring is ambitious, but not overly so and well, if I'm gonna be dragging my ass out of bed all cold assed Michigan winter long, I'm aiming high!
Mmmm Bop
Piwi - Yep, when I start upping the mileage again for marathon training then 8+ will feel natural for easy pace and definitely save your energy to nail those tempo runs! I agree with others...don’t sell yourself short as you’ve got loads of speed and ran a 2:54 on pretty low mileage!
Some of you already know that I bought a pair of Vaporflys recently which is ironic as I’ve never been a shoe junkie...in the last couple of years I’ve either raced in Skechers GoRun 400s (which is considered a casual shoe to serious runners) or Hoka Tracers (which is considered a joke shoe to serious runners). I’ve raced my two 5k races in Vaporflys and I’m not blown away. They feel unstable with possible high risk injury at longer distance and I didn’t really experience the bounce effect....maybe I’m not running correctly?
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
Mikkey - Everything I've read on them says people hate them at 5K speed, and even at 10K speed, but start liking them at HMP and definitely at MP. I race in very firm shoes for 5ks and 10Ks, I could never imagine running in something like the Vaporfly
Regarding a super lightweight shoe for short distances, I have a pair of Mizuno Wave Ekiden 11s and I highly recommend them. They are about as light as you can get. I have only worn them for speedwork on the track and a 5k track race and some time trials thus far. I know I can run much faster in them than my marathon race shoes or trainers, just because they are so damn light. I would love to run a marathon in them but I would probably either be injured before the race was over due to lack of support or the shoe would have disintegrated before I finished!
MT - Welcome. I've battled a lot of injury in my day, and honestly I found that the hardest thing was getting past about 40 mpw. Seems like you're there and running well. Hopefully it continues.
Pacing - Saw this over on LRC, thought it was good for our discussion:
https://twitter.com/Statman_Jon/status/854712432513740800/photo/1?