2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread (Read 389 times)

flavio1980


Intl. correspondent

    I've just read several articles explaining that you're supposed to wait 4 days before doing strenuous exercise at this altitude.

    Oooops, I'm feeling very amateurish right now especially considering we've been here before, and to Cuzco, and even La Paz which is at the top of the world 😁

    On the bright side, running should be easier for a couple of days when we go back to sea level 😎

    PRs: 1500 4:51 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

    Up next: Rest and recover

    Tool to generate Strava weekly

    CalBears


      Yeah, Kipchoge won it like it was nothing - like he was doing his Sunday's long run Smile.

       

      Marby - good thing about running marathons is that you can build on it for your next one - so, usually takes week or two to get back on track. Sorry, cannot relate to your report as it in foreign units (though I am from Eastern Europe originally, but totally lost touch of it). The only thing I see that the weekly mileage is decent - 60+ miles. And I commented on your MP/HMP workout Smile

       

      flavio - it seems to me you are just weak - thinking too much about altitude/multitude/poisoning/high blood pressure - you just need to drop all this training and simply enjoy life. Also, Mikkey had Strava account for ages - but somebody pissed him off about half or so year ago and he stopped posting there - so, apparently he still watching Strava on occasion.

       

      JTR - my goodness!!! 10 miles @6:16 - you just ran HM in training much much faster than I raced it last week - nice!

       

      My week was fine, I thought my HM effort was not strong enough and I would continue with regular training, but, I just could not make my legs running during Tuesday's track workout - felt so wrong - so, I did it by effort.

       

      Mo - off

      Tu - 8:82 @7:32 - 2 x 3 miles (6:22,6:32,6:30/6:43,6:42,6:29) 1 mile jog

      We - 10.26 @7:34

      Th - 7.21 @7:50

      Fr - 10.32 @7:26

      Sa - 11.31 @8:50 with hills sprints

      Su - 22.53 @7:59

      ===

      Total: 70.4 miles

      paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

      darkwave


      Mother of Cats

        Marby - good week for you. It will be interesting to see how things progress under the new coach.

        Flavio - rough rough week. I'm glad the ER didn't find anything, and I hope things improve for you.

        JTReeves - very nice workout on Wednesday.

        Calbears - could the Tuesday workout be due to tired legs from all the faster easy running?

         

        Olympics - the women's marathon was just ridiculously exciting.  I still can't believe she did it.

         

        I have to admit, I haven't been that into the track races.  I think it's because I've been watching all the equestrian stuff live and watching the track stuff later (when I already know the results).  The marathons were the only running things I watched live.

         

        My week:

        60 miles running, 3 hours pool-running, and 1000 yards swimming.
        M: 5 miles very easy on treadmill (9:51), 1 hour pool-running, and upper body weights/core.
        T: 12 miles, including a track workout of 2x1600, 2x800, 2x400, Splits were 6:38, 6:29, 3:04, 3:03, 88, and 86. 5:00 recoveries after the 1600s, 3:00 recovery in between the 800s; full recovery for 400s. Followed with leg strengthwork and 500 yards recovery swimming.
        W: 10 miles easy on treadmill (9:53) followed by streaming yoga.
        Th: 2 hours pool-running and upper body weights/core.
        Fr: 12.5 miles including a tempo workout of 4 miles, 3 miles in 29:08 (7:19 pace) and 21:58 (7:19 pace) with 1 mile easy and a water break in between. Then did leg strengthwork and 500 yards recovery swimming.
        Sa: 10 miles easy on treadmill (9:46) followed by streaming yoga.
        Su: 10.5 miles, including 7 miles very easy (9:23) and then four 60-70 second hills with full recovery, plus drills, two strides, and injury prevention work.

         

        Had the follow up appointment with the GI doctor (I actually saw the nurse practitioner, whom I really like).  Basically no new news on my large intestine - I started a medication called Lialda (anti-inflammatory for the large intestine) to see if it might help.  I am scheduled for an MRI of my small intestine on Tuesday, though I might not go through with it, as I'm not sure the place where I'm scheduled is covered by my insurance.  But...I started the Lialda on Wednesday and I think my energy levels might be a bit better already (but could also be better weather).

         

        I did a lot of treadmill running so I could watch show jumping live.

         

        If you're wondering about Friday's workout - a friend had a workout of 4-3-2-1 miles at marathon pace on tap - I ran the 4 and the 3 with her at her desired pace.

         

        ***

         

        Also, regarding the questions about the week I subbed in for my coach - this is actually something I've done the past 5 years or so (excepting last year, when workouts were cancelled).  When he's out of town, I sub in - it's a lot of work and has a bit of a learning curve (try timing 4-5 different groups of runners all doing a ladder workout on the track at different paces while trying also to watch everyone - it's tricky).  But it's also really rewarding.  You can learn a LOT about running and training from observing a group of different runners training over time.

         

        It's honestly not quite as if I was coaching my own group - I've been with him long enough that I pretty much know what he would say/do in just about every situation.  I try to handle things the exact way he would if he was there, which is occasionally slightly different from the choices I would make if I was coaching as myself.

         

        I have pulled runners from workouts - almost always when it happens, they're grateful I did (they knew they should stop but couldn't quite make the call because they didn't want to wimp out of the workout).

         

        I've also learned that it's tricky to sub in as coach for a group that you run with, in a social sense.  Whenever I sub in, I wear an official team shirt and/or baseball cap.  And I've told my teammates that when I wear that outfit, I'm playing coach and will instructing people as I see fit and reporting later on what I saw during the workout.  When I'm not wearing that outfit, I'm a teammate, and anything that I hear or see remains confidential, and I will not be giving advice unless specifically asked.  I've found maintaining that distinction is crucial to my relationship with my teammates.

        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

         

        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

        CalBears


          DW - I do not understand much medical related stuff but sincerely hope you will solve it successfully. Great week considering all the medical issues you are working on.

           

          Coaching and Track team stuff - wow... it really sounds so complicated. After reading all this, I do not think I've ever worked with a real track team (and yes, I've never been on a track team even in HS and Uni - my sport and my passion was always european football). Though, I don't think I mind that now Smile Having stuff that can or should be said to the coaching stuff that might do a damage to somebody because that somebody said (or did) something - wow, that sounds way too serious. Too serious to destroy fun of running on a team. Or I just misunderstood something - I probably is Smile.

           

          I kind of just noticed that you do some additional stuff after almost every workout. I wanna try to follow that regimen too. It will not happen right away because I think I am so weak in that area, that it kind of makes my body tired after I try to do stuff like lunges, pushups, sit-ups, frog jumps. etc. Even after I add one more repetition to an existing routine, it takes me day or two to recover Smile. But I think it might be a thing that could help me in a long run and that could be a resource I never tried to discover.

           

           

          Calbears - could the Tuesday workout be due to tired legs from all the faster easy running? 

          I am 100% positive that is not the case. The next day after Tuesday's track workout I felt so much better and I ran "faster" easy run. I did some x-training after that and felt a little tired on Thursday - but I still ran "faster" easy ran on Thursday. Then I felt great again on Friday and ran my best "faster", so far, 10 miles. And I felt pretty good today. So, I think the way I felt on Tuesday was because of HM "workout".  But of course - we will see.

          paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

          jhudak55


            Flavio: That a rough week. Hopefully everything is back to normal soon.

             

            DW: Nice week. The teammate/friend/coach dynamic is one I hadn't considered. Seems like you have a good approach.

             

            Cal: That was a solid long run.

             

            Marby: Based on the MP long run, I take it sub 3 is the goal?

             

            JT: Really nice workout. That has to get you really excited!

             

            Molly's marathon was one of the most exciting races I've seen and probably my favorite of the Olympics. She posted the marathon to Strava, which is really cool, everyone should go give her kudos. Kipchoge is just on another level. I found myself wondering if he has to force himself to not grimace at any point during the race.

             

            My week:

            61.7 miles

            M: 5.2 mile recovery (9:34)

            T: 9.5 miles with a 5 mile tempo (6:41, 6:38, 6:36, 6:34, 6:31)

            W: 5 miles easy (8:57)

            T: 14 mile MLR (8:29)

            F: Off

            S: 10 miles easy (8:52)

            S: 18 mile long run w/ last 10 between 6:55-7

             

            Mileage was a bit short of what I had planned due to a day off on Friday. For the last week or two I've had some tenderness in the hip/glute area which seemed to be slowly getting more aggravated. The day off combined with a lot of extra stretching seems to have helped.

             

            I was really happy with the long run yesterday. This was my first run with a longer sustained, close to marathon pace segment. It was pretty tough, but I got through it. This week will be a pull back recovery.

            flavio1980


            Intl. correspondent

              Cal - please never change 😂You never write a boring post! I did listen to you and hardened the fuck up and edited out my rant.

               

              JHud - Monster of a long run!

              PRs: 1500 4:51 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

              Up next: Rest and recover

              Tool to generate Strava weekly

              CalBears


                Cal - please never change 😂You never write a boring post! I did listen to you and hardened the fuck up and edited out my rant.

                 

                JHud - Monster of a long run!

                 

                flavio - glad this place has non-americans among them who can see beyond the linguistics into real intentions. Yes, I was actually half joking about all this stuff you have experienced, but most of the world has it all the time - so, we just need to accept it and go with it - eventually it should become better (or we get used to it Smile

                 

                jhudak - I don not think I ever ran MP miles at the end (or middle) of my long runs - for some reason I cannot do that. I think I tried few times and maybe succeeded once or twice (one of the good one was my one and only The Truth Run Smile. But mostly I was always failing them and I just stopped doing it. Usually I make it as a separate MP workout devoted totally to that. Kudos to you for being able to run 10!!! MP miles within your LR.

                paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                JTReeves


                  Cal: Nothing wrong with going by effort on those 2 x 3 mi, especially right after a half. Nice 3 hour long run as well.

                   

                  Darkwave: Glad you are feeling a bit better with the Lialda. I saw a bit of equestrian stuff from the Olympics and thought of you (you are the only person I know who has done that seriously). Glad you saw the marathons, those were the highlights in my opinion from the running stuff.

                   

                  jhudak: That is an absolute classic Pfitz week: nice tempo, a solid MLR and a LR with a big MP segment. Great job! I think you're on track for most improved from this thread. Good idea to have a cutback week this week and let everything sink in.

                  2:52:16 (2018)

                  JMac11


                  Milkman

                     

                     

                    Absolutely Kipchoge is the marathon GOAT. Not sure about all-around GOAT. Bekele was unmatched in world XC and on the track, plus don't forget he ran within 2 seconds of Kipchoge's marathon WR. I wonder if Kenny will run Berlin next month, and drop a near WR like he did in 2016 after not being put on the Rio team...

                     

                    I keep hearing this about Bekele, but I don't know how you can have so many DNF/DNS that he has had over the last 5 years. We keep sweeping that aside, but at some point, that severely counts against him. Kipchoge could win 5 more marathons and people would still say the same thing about Bekele. If he magically comes back and runs a WR, sure. But his inconsistency counts against him imo.

                     

                    JT - summer has returned. I had the same thoughts with workouts, but seems impossible to avoid this mid-week heat. Will just have to suffer again and try to drink a lot of water!

                     

                    Flavio - I spent a month between 8-9K in elevation. I can't believe you tried anything more than a 5K for your first run. That was silly. I needed a week before I felt back to normal. Take every run slower and realize you can't do the distance you normally do right away.

                     

                    DW - I love that you wear different hats with confidentiality agreements. You are such a lawyer 

                     

                    Jhud - I can't believe she posted that to Strava! Just gave her kudos, like it was any other run LOL. Her previous runs just going in a circle are hilarious as well. She's amazing.

                    5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                     

                    Next Race: Suffolk County Half (10/24)

                    JMac11


                    Milkman

                      I haven't posted my weeklies this entire year, but since training has officially started for me, I will add them. For those who don't know, I follow Jack Daniels's 2Q program, so get ready for his alphabet soup of E, T, I, R, and M runs. I plan on peaking around 85 miles this cycle, similar to 2019 CIM.

                       

                      The only real notable thing for me is that once again, I got too dehydrated during my long run and had to walk a little at the end. I took in 32 ounces of LMNT based electrolyte drink, and it wasn't enough (I moved up from 20 ounces the previous long run). Guess I'll up it to around 45 my next run, that better be enough because I don't know that I can take in more liquid without getting sick!

                       

                      Also - I've already got a black toenail (first time ever on my big toenail, usually it's another toe). This one is also really painful walking around. Seems like you could go to a podiatrist to get it drained and relieve the pain, but usually this goes away in a day or two, so let's hope that's the case otherwise running is going to be very tough! I'll take any tips folks have who have dealt with this before to minimize pain.

                       

                       

                       

                      Weekly for period: From: 08/02/2021 To 08/08/2021

                      Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                      in ft
                      08/03 Lunch Run 8.16 13.13 01:05:24 08:01 04:59 338
                      08/04 Ran 4T on pure hate 😤 7.54 12.12 00:54:23 07:13 04:29 240
                      08/05 Afternoon Run 5.80 9.32 00:48:09 08:18 05:10 167
                      08/06 Afternoon Run 10.29 16.56 01:21:04 07:53 04:54 367
                      08/07 Evening Run 8.34 13.43 01:07:20 08:04 05:01 331
                      08/08 Barn door officially open for CIM 20.01 32.20 02:39:47 07:59 04:58 331

                      Total distance: 60.13mi

                      5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                       

                      Next Race: Suffolk County Half (10/24)

                      JTReeves


                         I keep hearing this about Bekele, but I don't know how you can have so many DNF/DNS that he has had over the last 5 years. We keep sweeping that aside, but at some point, that severely counts against him. Kipchoge could win 5 more marathons and people would still say the same thing about Bekele. If he magically comes back and runs a WR, sure. But his inconsistency counts against him imo.

                         

                         

                        JMac, I wonder if you are familiar with Kenny's career only since he moved to the marathon? I think that roughly coincides with your own start into running. In any case, among the 3 venues for elite distance running (cross country, track, and the roads), Kenny has dominated like no other the first 2. It's easy to see if you look at his Wikipedia page. Just look at how many World XC golds he has (nobody else is close) and how many Olympic and World Champs track medals he has. Add to that the number of world records he set during his career (he still has the 2000m and 5000m indoor WRs), and nobody else is better. In the marathon, yes, he's had a lot of DNFs, but he's also had some amazing runs, namely winning Berlin twice in near WR time. He's the second fastest ever at the distance. Kipchoge had a good career on the track, but nothing even close to Kenny. The same for XC. Only Tergat and Ngugi are approaching the same level as Kenny. I'd recommend to watch some of the World XC champs from the 2000's (they are all on Youtube). Short course, long course, he destroyed everybody. Also the 2009 Berlin WC 10,000 race is a good example of how dominant he was.

                         

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenenisa_Bekele

                         

                        Some will (incorrectly) put Mo into the overall GOAT discussion, but he accomplished nothing in world XC, set only 2 WRs (indoor 2 mile and more recently 1 hour run). Yes, he won a lot of Olympic and WC golds on the track, but not much beyond that. Geb is much more deserving of being considered 2nd, as he set 27 WRs in his career, spanning the 1500m indoor all the way up to the marathon.

                         

                        All this is to say, like I noted in my first post, Kenny is not the marathon GOAT (nobody can dispute Kipchoge has that title) but is the overall GOAT, considering what he's done in all facets of elite distance running (XC, track, road).

                        2:52:16 (2018)

                        JMac11


                        Milkman

                          No, I'm familiar with his career. This is not just comparing marathon to marathon. It's the longevity of Kipchoge's career vs. Bekele.

                           

                          First, I'd say XC wins are like 1/3 of a marathon win. You can't possibly compare the two directly given you can, at most, run 3 marathons in a year successfully at the elite level. You can run multiple events in the same Olympics at shorter distances. It's why I laugh when I hear people compare swimmers to other sports: of course Phelps has so many golds, he can win 5+ in any Olympics!

                           

                          Yes, he was wildly successful for a decade. But the sheer longevity of Kipchoge compared to Bekele is not even comparable. It's clearly just your opinion though of what is the GOAT. No question Bekele was more successful than Kipchoge, but over a shorter time span. Does that outweigh Kipchoge being as good as he has been for as long as he has?

                          5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                           

                          Next Race: Suffolk County Half (10/24)

                          JTReeves


                            No, I'm familiar with his career. This is not just comparing marathon to marathon. It's the longevity of Kipchoge's career vs. Bekele.

                             

                            You sure about that???

                             

                            And not sure your longevity argument holds up that well...

                            2001: Kenny wins his first W XC gold as a junior

                            2003: Kipchoge wins his first (and only) W XC gold as a junior

                            2003: both win a WC gold

                            2018: Kipchoge wins Berlin in 2:01:39

                            2019: Kenny wins Berlin in 2:01:41

                             

                            Both had some down years: for Kenny, 2010-2015, for Kipchoge, 2009-2014. But the span of each career is about the same, 18 years for Kenny from first to last big result, 18 for Kipchoge.

                            2:52:16 (2018)

                            Running Problem


                            Problem Child

                              I think it is always hard to compare champions over different times. The later champion could have benefited from the earlier champion's success. It could be a totally different race. I just respect them as being the best at their sport. I could almost say the greatest of all time at Western States isn't a guy who ever won. It's the guy who finished 25 and had a buckle made for him.

                               

                              Myweek:

                              I decided to cancel weeken runs due to air quality. I wasn't going to drive two hours just ot get a two hour run. Just way too early in the cycle and I got my two workouts in this week. The mileage wasn't there. The 7.63 mi run was all based on heart rate instead of pace. I was aiming for a Marathon effort because I know I couldn't run a 6:50/mi pace on the 8 mile loop right now if I really tried. Hopefully this smoke clears out this week so I can get back to some training.

                              Weekly for period: From: 08/02/2021 To 08/08/2021

                              Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                              in ft
                              08/02 That time I tried to be a morning person. 7.01 11.27 00:58:05 08:17 05:09 115
                              08/03 That time it’s like being offered help by the one who kicked you down. 6.90 11.10 00:57:16 08:18 05:10 154
                              08/03 Evening Activity 0.00 0.00 00:28:52 00:00 00:00 0
                              08/04 That time I had more to say. 6.08 9.78 00:51:25 08:27 05:15 285
                              08/05 That time the theme was Thirsty Thursday Throwbacks. 7.63 12.27 00:57:30 07:32 04:41 358
                              08/06 That one hundred isn’t as good as TWO. 1.00 1.62 00:08:29 08:29 05:14 7
                              08/08 BRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPP 6.94 11.16 00:21:10 03:03 01:54 823

                              Total distance: 35.56mi

                               

                              Workouts were okay. I didn't feel confident going into the training cycle I'd be able to pull off a sub 3 and this is a little behind where I was at in 2019. To be fair, in 2019 I'd failed at Chicago, and ran a 3:05:26 in April so there is a much larger base build from those two races. The TRX workout didn't seem as hard as I remembered, but seems like it will help with running form. Currently forced (requested as soon as work said itw as an option again) to work from home four days a week. The downside is there I don't think there is a good mix of hills on my runs from home. I think the mix of up/down hills helps me with marathons, and I know other people run pretty much all flats and can run awesome marathons. It's just mental and something I need to work on. 

                               

                              dwave I would agree with the coaching/running partner distinction. I'm sure those runners were grateful you pulled them from workouts.

                               

                              JMac 32 ounces?!??!?! wow. On my long runs I think I do 1 ounce of water per mile. Did you use water fountains or just carry two bottles? I think your stomach is going to get as much training as your legs this cycle. 

                               

                              Marby did you pick another marathon to jump into? I thought you pulled the plug on marathon training recently.

                              Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                              VDOT 51

                              5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10

                              JMac11


                              Milkman

                                 

                                You sure about that???

                                 

                                And not sure your longevity argument holds up that well...

                                2001: Kenny wins his first W XC gold as a junior

                                2003: Kipchoge wins his first (and only) W XC gold as a junior

                                2003: both win a WC gold

                                2018: Kipchoge wins Berlin in 2:01:39

                                2019: Kenny wins Berlin in 2:01:41

                                 

                                Both had some down years: for Kenny, 2010-2015, for Kipchoge, 2009-2014. But the span of each career is about the same, 18 years for Kenny from first to last big result, 18 for Kipchoge.

                                 

                                You skipped over all the DNFs and DNSs from Bekele! In the last TEN years, Bekele has won exactly 2 major races. Kipchoge has won 10(!) major races, plus his sub 2:00 time trial. That is longevity. Not that you won a bunch of races 20 years ago and then exactly 2 over the last ten years.

                                5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                                 

                                Next Race: Suffolk County Half (10/24)