Just wanna ask opinions on what type of training should I do to help not only finding the pain of racing but to build from it. My problem is I'll go out and wait until it's almost over before putting the gas on. Don't ask me why I fear the pain but I must because I enjoyed the hell out of my last 5k and I know THAT is NOT how you are supposed to feel. Loved passing people left and right as they were dying while I was feeling very much alive and pain free. I'm thinking 400, 800's 1 mile intervals maybe some pyramid workouts will help. I have no problem with running comfortably hard just need to break through that mental barrier)  Anyway if anyone has advice feel  or just tell me I'm a dumbass and will always be a mediocre runner

Good thing about the 5k is that you can bomb them all the time and not really have to worry about it. Best way is to latch on to an experienced faster runner to see how it is done. First 1k should float but feel fast, if you are well warmed up, including some strides. You could do 3-5 miles of warmup... I think 3 is best, with maybe 800m worth of faster running, moving to some strides just about 10 seconds/mi faster than goal race pace. My advice (for you, not everyone) would be to go out hard and hang on. Don't be afraid to bomb it. It's only a 5k, right?

 

1 mile intervals are a bit long for 5k training. Even 800's might be long, depending on the person.

 

Last mile should be hell. Second mile... distinctly uncomfortable, difficult to hold on to the pace.

Thanks Obsessor!  I've actually been thinking of "latching" on to faster runner on the next one. I also think I need a longer warmup.

So doing slighter faster than 5k pace mile intervals might be too long.  I'm like a steam engine during my 5k's lol I just keep getting stronger and stronger until I'm through the shoot.  Mile splits for last 5k was 7:49, 7:26, 6:56 to sub 5:20 for the last .11. Not once did I ever feel the crap this hurts feeling. In fact I was pretty much smiling the last mile or so cause I was passing so many people and they were sounding like they were dying and I was feeling high as a kite  (not like I imagine I should really be feeling at the end of a 5k)

I do not think of 5K's as "comfortably hard".

I think of them as uncomfortable from the start leading to pure torture by the end of the 2nd mile. 

Although I am not as accomplished as Obsessor, I disagree with the applicability of the longer intervals.  800's and 1 mile repeats are pretty valuable to get the feel of how those extended faster paces should feel. 

I also like progression runs on the treadmill for this.  Warm up and then keep increasing pace every 1/4 mile until you absolutely can't hold on. 

I second the long warm-up recommendation. You'll likely do better in the race and will decrease your changes of getting hurt (especially in with the lower temps).

I was just thinking about this during tonight's interval session.

I always noticed that no matter how hard I ran the first 5K of the season, even when I was dying in the last 400, within 5 minutes of finishing I would be pissed and think I could go out and run the same race all over again.  I would feel pain, but my body was just not in shape to hurt itself yet.  You have to a) get mentally prepared to own and feed off the pain, and b) get your body ready to actually handle a high pain load.

Typically, my legs will burn and feel crapped out first on these hard but not hard enough efforts.  It takes intervals and regular borderline anaerobic work to condition your body to really push it in a 5K.

By the third or fourth 5K of the season, guaranteed when I finished not only was I 15-20sec faster, but there was no way in hell I was toeing the line again any time soon!

I would use sequences of 400s and 800s....say 10-16X400 with 60-90sec recovery (a little less recovery than interval time) and 6-8X800 with 90-120sec recovery.  Repeats should be a little faster than 5K pace and a tad faster than that, almost 3K pace, for the 400s.

In terms of really getting to that painful spot and learning to tolerate/deal with it, a great workout is 3-4X(400-800-400) with 400-type (60-90sec) between repeats and 3-5min between sets.  You run the first 400 solid, then the 800 solid, but then you are REQUIRED to bust the last 400 of the set at least 1-2sec faster than the first of the set.  Then the next set, each repeat must be at least 1sec faster than that repeat of the previous set.  The purpose of this is that you WILL HURT at the end of each set, but then have a longer recovery until the next set, but then hurt even worse by the end of that next set.

When I'm in shape to run a good 5K, I can hurt myself in an interval workout, shaking legs at the end and everything.  Tonight, first interval workout of the season, and hell, half a mile jog after and I felt fine.  And it's not that I wasn't working during the actual workout.

 

 

It is maybe something related to her huge base and almost no sharpening? She is an ultra runner and her definition of pain is much different than a 5k person. She might not be able to attain what a former HS/college runner knows is the right threshold without a bunch of work simply because the speed she needs to hit is much faster than she thinks it is. Crap, did that make sense?

I don't think it's that she can't take the pain, I think it's that one of the components necessary to run hard enough to really hurt in a 5K is not up to snuff due to the lack of sharpening....the "weakest link" is too weak.  With sharpening it won't just be one link hurting but many....a true hard effort.

I'm with dbg2n -- I am fantasizing about quitting by halfway, generally (i.e., in the the second mile, well before the third).

But DW says that doesn't happen to her until the third mile (wanting to quit)

I've had her do the workout MrH mentioned above (I read an article by Alissa mentioning it), and she found it tough, but she got through it. I haven't tried it myself exactly -- I've done 3x1mi at goal pace, but not for quite a while, and with more rest. I've done some pyramids that I think hit near the same threshold of pain for me, but generally only bring myself to try that with company.

(Caveat: I am just another newbie -- I don't have anything like the experience or understanding that spaniel seems to have.)

Again thanks for everyone's insight. I'm actually going to start doing some of those workout's Spaniel suggested as well as mile intervals (I'm still training for a 50 miler a marathon right after that and maybe a half marathon before the 50 miler. Sharpening starts NOW! This is the aspect I've never done. I went from non running to running to just working on endurance and building base and running lots. Guess I skipped around a lot in Daniels lol