Also, there is ideal marathon training, and there is winter training in Montreal. In the summer I did as onemile says, and I just made my runs longer by running them in the evenings.
10 beat the blizzard miles. Saw a number of runners out doing the same. I also saw 2 ostriches. Not even on my radar as something I may see on a run.
Also, there is ideal marathon training
This is an oxymoron. Ideally, marathons would be banned.
Today I am printing W2's, which will be one large project off my plate once it's done. 13,000 forms across nine companies.
Man, that's a thankless task right there. On behalf of ungrateful employees all across the country; HURRY THE HELL UP ALREADY!
race obsessed
I didn't say slow and steady... But 6 miles total for a mid-week workout run seems short. If you can make it 11-12 miles total with some intervals or T pace I think it's better? 3/4 of my long runs had quality portions (18 miles progression etc). I am a big believer in that. I didn't mean to run a bunch of slow runs... but nothing over 6 miles mid-week seems... not ideal.
Agreed it does seem short especially for marathon training.
My recommendation is for someone that does not do doubles (or maybe has not in awhile). Personally, my morning recovery run is 30 minutes - which depending on leg fatigue is anywhere from 3.5 - a shade over 4 miles in the morning.
The evening workout has been: 2 warmup , 2 cool down and roughly 5-10 miles intervals. Giving me a range of 12.5 - 18 miles a day.
**BUT** (and please don't take this wrong, me being arrogant or an ass) I have been working at this for 3 years with a coach doing some pretty brutal stuff day in and out - in 108 degrees or 0 F (doesn't get negative in Texas much) and I don't Tmill.
Given a few weeks of getting used to doubles, he might be able to increase his recovery distance - but that is highly dependent on what his body can handle currently.
Thanks. My initial problem I'm trying to solve by running doubles is schedule availability, and the fact that it is winter and it is not reliable to schedule interval sessions outside. It is much more reliable to schedule them on the indoor track and it is near where I work, thus the lunch hour. So moving my workouts to evenings is not an option I'm considering. Thanks for the suggestion.
Thanks. My initial problem I'm trying to solve by running doubles is schedule availability, and the fact that it is winter and it is not reliable to schedule interval sessions outside. It is much more reliable to schedule them on the indoor track and it is near where I work, thus the lunch hour.
So moving my workouts to evenings is not an option I'm considering.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Winter conditions especially in your area do make it very tough.
I think what you can do or decide to do is largely based on the type of training you are working on. Is it cumulative fatigue (per Daniels (assume Hansons is similar)) or more of a Higdon style which focus' on the long run.
Cumulative fatigue would be more conducive to working in doubles especially if the rest is relatively short (early AM and then lunch) It's ok to run speed work on fatigued legs. You get some of your best work done then - but the work is based on effort level not pace.
If it is more of a long run focused plan, I am not sure doubles is the way to go.
***Take the above as opinion - I sure as hell am no expert.
And ideal is hugely personal! Back to the adage that we are all an experiment of one.
M - Easy T - Intervals - VO2Max W - Easy T - Intervals or Tempo or Threshold (a bit slower than Tuesday, but more miles) F - off S- 8-10 miles easy S - Long run with MP miles
M - Easy
T - Intervals - VO2Max
W - Easy
T - Intervals or Tempo or Threshold (a bit slower than Tuesday, but more miles)
F - off
S- 8-10 miles easy
S - Long run with MP miles
That's pretty inpressive. I have never been able to carry three quality workouts for the duration of marathon training.
Since they're optional and not apart of a fixed plan, I would let how I felt each week dictate when and where I ran the doubles.
I'm a lunch runner too. Best results I have adding extras are mornings of workout days - used to be tues and thurs, but last year I pretty much moved to one workout a week. Anyway, I find that morning run makes the lunch workout just a lot easier to get into. Much looser, ready to go, even though it may seem like "short" rest (4 or 5 hours) between runs. The early run was only ever 4-6 miles and always super easy.
I'm a lunch runner too. Best results I have adding extras are mornings of workout days - used to be tues and thurs, but last year I pretty much moved to one workout a week.
Anyway, I find that morning run makes the lunch workout just a lot easier to get into. Much looser, ready to go, even though it may seem like "short" rest (4 or 5 hours) between runs. The early run was only ever 4-6 miles and always super easy.
I could consider running to work and achieve what you're saying. My problem with that is the logistics. But I am considering it. Thanks.
Either/or, and keep the added runs at an easy effort. I say that just based on the training schedules I've been provided in the past. Sometimes I'd do doubles when both runs are easy, and sometimes I'd have a day with a quality run and an easy run. I don't like doing doubles on consecutive days.
I got the idea from seeing your training, where you do doubles all the time. And believe me, both my doubles this week (Tuesday and Thursday) were slowcompared to what I normally run at the same effort (easy).
I get that. That's why I didn't train for a PR for Boston. Winter marathon training in Wisconsin sucks too.
That's pretty inpressive. I have never been able to carry three quality workouts for the duration of marathon training. Since they're optional and not apart of a fixed plan, I would let how I felt each week dictate when and where I ran the doubles.
I was training Hansons, and liked it, but came to realize that the Thursday 10 miles at MP (13 total) were not gonna happen this winter, especially with DDs soccer schedule.
So I came up with this draft of a plan.
On Tuesdays I run 12-15 minutes at 5K pace instead of my usual 18-21.
On Thursdays, 24-26 minutes at 10Kish pace.
On the weekend long run, I'm slowly going to incorporate quality. This week is going to be 25 minutes at MP out of 120-130 minutes total.
On Wednesdays I could run more than 6 miles. Like 8-9 in the evening instead of running at lunch or added to the lunch-time 6 miler.
Onemile, I'm not qualified to contradict what you're saying, and I really appreciate all your input because although I might seem to argue against it, I actually appreciate all your opinions as they help forge mine, but yesterday's 6 at lunch including 5 x 1200s in 5 minutes + last evenings 7 Easy/Recovery (total 13 miles in my day) seems to compare to a Hansons Thursday effort wise (10 miles at MP, 13 total). I sure feel as tired as after my Hansons' Thursday workouts. I also always thought one single 13 mile run was better than to split it in two, but I would not have done a straight 13 with the quality I put in... so does that compensate? I don't know. Hopefully it does.
Great idea.
Since I'm experimenting with my training, I dunno if it will be good enough for a PR, but I recently decided to go for it even if it's winter. I'm giving it all I've got. If I don't change my mind until then (rather unlikely, lol) I'll hit the course with a 3:12 goal in mind.
**BUT** (and please don't take this wrong, me being arrogant or an ass) I have been working at this for 3 years with a coach doing some pretty brutal stuff day in and out - in 108 degrees or 0 F (doesn't get negative in Texas much) and I don't Tmill. ***Take the above as opinion - I sure as hell am no expert. And ideal is hugely personal! Back to the adage that we are all an experiment of one.
Don't worry, I appreciate, and consider your comments as suggestions and ideas and opinions, which is exactly what I am seeking.
I don't know if you can compare the two since you were running at 10k pace vs. marathon pace but I do believe you were equally tired and beat up. I actually find the faster paced stuff harder on me (recovery-wise) even if it is shorter than moderate stuff like the Hansons MP and Strength pace workouts. Your 10k workout was good.
delicate flower
3 mile easy jog to do later.
Done. Very easy effort. Like, "Jesus Christ this is boring and needs to end already ffs" effort.
<3