Low HR Training

12

I'm a card-carrying member of.... (Read 927 times)


Beginner all over again

     

    I'm a card-carrying member of the club .... 

     

         I-think-my-MAF-number-is-Too-Low-for-me

     

    Any other members?

    Former members with expired cards?

     

    I post this hoping to prove myself wrong eventually and get my membership revoked.

    And to help other Newbies in the process of or considering a transition to Low Heart Rate training.

    Perhaps ya'll will share your experiences about having to

    Walk So Much

    at the beginning, and how you eventually transitioned to Actually Running at  MAF ?

     

     

    gregw


      We're going to need to see your credentials before you gain entry into the club!


      Plugging your 37:50 5k into the mcmillan calculator gives


      Endurance Workouts Pace/Mile Pace/K
      Recovery Jogs 15:35 to 16:05 9:41 to 10:00
      Long Runs 14:35 to 15:35 9:04 to 9:41
      Easy Runs 14:35 to 15:05 9:04 to 9:23


      It doesn't seem like your MAF pace is that far off.  Plus, the mcmillan paces are usually good for someone already aerobically developed (i.e., your race times correlate from 5k through the marathon) so you'd expect to run even slower than he recommends.  Notice that in the MAF pace to 5k predictor table, the ratio of MAF pace to 5k pace goes up as the 5k times get longer.  A 5:00 MAF predicts a 4:15 pace 5k (5:00/4:15 = 1.18) and a 10:00 MAF predicts a 7:30 pace 5k (10:00 / 7:30 = 1.33).  Taking your 12:00 pace 5k.  1.33 * 12 = 16:00, but it should be even slower than that if the ratio increase past 1.33 for slower pace.  Your fitness might be improved since last July.  You might not have raced that, ...  I don't know.


      If you need convincing your MAF is right, then get a VO2max test (with RQ) or run a race with your HRM or do a Hadd test.  (For the last two I'd recommend electrode gel to really make sure the reading are good).  If you want to run faster because you want to, then just run faster.  You don't need our approval!

         I have had to walk before to stay under the number.

        Sounds like your frustrated.

         

         

        Have you improved at all at your current MAF? How are your MAF tests doing?

         

        If the paces at the same HR are not improving, sometimes it's an MAF calculation issue, but it's usually a training load issue. When it's training load, it's either you aren't doing enough or you are doing too much.If you are feeling good, have no sore spots or minor injuries, increase time on your feet a little each week. If you feel like a wreck, have sore spots, feel off,etc. then do less time.

         

        If it's your MAF, it's usually that  it is calculated too high. Many of us here have made progress working out way below MAF. In other words, if the volume is correct, you can make progress at MAF -15 or even lower. You were sedentary for many years until just about a year ago. You're still a beginner, and have had an injury in the past half year, generally that means keeping a ceiling of (180-age) -5 beats.

         

        I'm not sure how you are doing your run/walks. Are you keeping your HR near MAF when walking? How fast can you walk at your MAF? When you can't walk fast enough to stay at your MAF (for me that means 5mph +--gets uncomfortable) then you know you are maximizing your walking. Aerobic capacity, and teaching the body to fat can both improve with fast walking.

         

        --Jimmy

        log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #143

         

        gregw


          FrancesRe, aren't you doing a half marathon soon?  When is that?  Will you wear a heart rate monitor during it?  That might give us some more to go on.


          Race Less Train More

            FrancesRe-- What is your resting HR? Howmuch has it dropped since you first starting running/maffing? My 14+ pace is pretty much of a walk to the members of my club. Most  of  us came to LHR  because of  injuries or simply over-training. When you go from 10:00m/m to 15 m/m it is hard on the ego. LHR traning will pay off. See jimmyb's log.

            Run until the trail runs out.

            2013***1500 miles

            50 miler

             

             

            unsolicited chatter

            http://bkclay.blogspot.com/


            Beginner all over again

              We're going to need to see your credentials before you gain entry into the club!


              Plugging your 37:50 5k into the mcmillan calculator gives


              Endurance Workouts Pace/Mile Pace/K
              Recovery Jogs 15:35 to 16:05 9:41 to 10:00
              Long Runs 14:35 to 15:35 9:04 to 9:41
              Easy Runs 14:35 to 15:05 9:04 to 9:23

               

              Oh, okay, I guess for a "recovery" pace it's not too far off quite yet.

              That's a good logical thing to point out for me,  Thanks.

               

              No, I haven't raced in nearly a year, but my last 3 long runs (log) were all run at a 12:30 pace avg, I'd slow down or speed up to maintain that pace.  (wasn't doing LHR then so it was faster training pace)

               

              And yes, my HM is this weekend. I'm going to try for a 12:00 pace avg by the Finish Line

              I'll wear the HRMonitor and log the results. 

               

              Thanks for showing me that grid up there. It helped to see it.

               

              And yeah, I'm just moving in slo-mo and walking a lot...wondering whether this is "what I'm supposed to be doing?"

               

              :-)

               

              I think the HM will be a good Baseline for my "LHR Experience" ....or is that LHR 'Experiment'

               


              Beginner all over again

                Have you improved at all at your current MAF? How are your MAF tests doing? 

                 

                I've only been LHR since Apr 10th

                I haven't done a MAF test but from what I can tell every run will be a MAF test, now that I've stopped factoring in my WU/CD into paceAvg and just Clocking the Run/Walk workout portion.

                I warmup :15 every time I jog anyway, so I was thinking that would pretty much be a MAF test every run.  From what I have learned of the MAF test.

                 

                 ........... either you aren't doing enough or you are doing too much.If you are feeling good, have no sore spots or minor injuries, increase time on your feet a little each week.

                 

                My plan is after recovery of my HM this weekend, to have the goal to increase time on feet.

                So maybe that will help me progress from walking so much also.

                 

                 In other words, if the volume is correct, you can make progress at MAF -15 or even lower.

                 

                This was going to be a next question of mine

                I can always adjust volume HR<MAF, okay.

                 

                 I'm not sure how you are doing your run/walks. Are you keeping your HR near MAF when walking? How fast can you walk at your MAF? When you can't walk fast enough to stay at your MAF (for me that means 5mph +--gets uncomfortable) then you know you are maximizing your walking.

                 

                 

                What I do:

                I jog trying to remind myself to keep slowing down to avoid the HR beep, sometimes I walk 6 steps (slowly) just to get my HR down a digit or two and resume slow jogging under-but-nearing MAF.

                If I jog faster, I hit MAF ceiling sooner

                If I jog slower, I can sustain it for only so long (30, 60, 80 seconds) and then the duration seems to just max out my HR=MAF and my Garmin beeps and then I walk.

                So I try to jog Slowly enough to creep along as long as I can (duration) before the HR monitor beeps HR=MAF to walk.

                And

                When I do Walk (during the workout minutes, not WU/CD), No, I don't walk fast and don't try to keep my HR at MAF because I already Hit MAF and that's why I am walking (not jogging) in the first place.  I'm trying to get my HR Below MAF so I can jog again.  So I walk s-l-o-w-l-y actually.

                So I walk easy/slowly/20:00 pace....to give my HR a chance to get to MAF-7 to MAF-10, so that I can Start Jogging Again.   My Garmin will alarm at MAF-7 to tell me to start jogging again.  Just to explain "how" I walk.

                 

                Thanks for all your explanations, even the ones I didn't quote.

                :-)

                 

                 


                 


                Beginner all over again

                  aren't you doing a half marathon soon?  

                   

                  I am, this weekend, coming off "not LHR training"

                  So the HM will be a Good Baseline pre-LHR training for me I am thinking.

                   

                  When is that?  Will you wear a heart rate monitor during it?  That might give us some more to go on.

                   

                  Just a few days away.

                  I am going to try to clock a 12:00 pace average by the finish line, letting my HR do whatever it does (within reason).

                  And

                  Yes, I'll wear the HRmonitor, and I'll post it to the log. It won't be impressive but again, I think it's going to be a Good Baseline pre-LHR data, and then in X months from now maybe run another HM at Same Pace Avg, and compare the HR's (??)

                   

                  Thanks for offering!

                   


                  Beginner all over again

                     What is your resting HR? Howmuch has it dropped since you first starting running/maffing?

                     

                    I've just started taking it, and it's about 60, 62, 61, 60 right there, last couple weeks.

                    I don't have resting HR from before, so it's going to have to be my Baseline data

                    I saw HR 189 in the final half mile of a 5K last summer, but I intentionally kept the HR under 190 just because it seemed so high I didn't want to .....I don't know, pass out, overstress my heart, etc.  So it definitely was not an all out HR, more like a holding back at HR=189 situation  (not that Max HR matters, but just FYI)

                     

                      Most  of  us came to LHR  because ....over-training.

                     

                    I was overtraining too

                    I started running my workouts at 12:30 pace avg...just because.. and my HR was HR>MAF for sure.

                    My 2nd to the last LongRun took a lot out of me, I needed recovery days, etc., and then my Last LongRun did the same.  Sore tired legs.

                    So I declared myself over-training and omitted my last LongRun of my HM training and switched to LHR.

                    so my HM this weekend will be my Last Long Run at HR< MAF and HR<MEP for quite a while. I've just this month swtiched to running my "time" not "distance" ...since I'm not training for any upcoming Race-distances as I have been the last six months for this HM.

                     

                    So I'll keep the Garmin at MAF-7 and MAF-2

                    and just keep the intermittent walking.  It just kind of wasn't feeling as if it was exactly what I'm supposed to be doing....

                     

                       

                      I've only been LHR since Apr 10th

                      I haven't done a MAF test but from what I can tell every run will be a MAF test, now that I've stopped factoring in my WU/CD and just Clocking the Run/Walk workout portion.

                      I warmup :15 every time I jog anyway, so I was thinking that would pretty much be a MAF test every run.  From what I have learned of the MAF test.

                       

                       

                      My plan is after recovery of my HM this weekend, to have the goal to increase time on feet.

                      So maybe that will help me progress from walking so much also.

                       

                       

                      This was going to be a next question of mine

                      I can always adjust volume HR<MAF, okay.

                       

                       

                      What I do:

                      I jog trying to remind myself to keep slowing down to avoid the HR beep, sometimes I walk 6 steps (slowly) just to get my HR down a digit or two and resume slow jogging under-but-nearing MAF.

                      If I jog faster, I hit MAF ceiling sooner

                      If I jog slower, I can sustain it for only so long (30, 60, 80 seconds) and then the duration seems to just max out my HR=MAF and my Garmin beeps and then I walk.

                      So I try to jog Slowly enough to creep along as long as I can (duration) before the HR monitor beeps HR=MAF to walk.

                      And

                      When I do Walk (during the workout minutes, not WU/CD), No, I don't walk fast and don't try to keep my HR at MAF because I already Hit MAF and that's why I am walking (not jogging) in the first place.  I'm trying to get my HR Below MAF so I can jog again.  So I walk s-l-o-w-l-y actually.

                      So I walk easy/slowly/20:00 pace....to give my HR a chance to get to MAF-7 to MAF-10, so that I can Start Jogging Again.   My Garmin will alarm at MAF-7 to tell me to start jogging again.  Just to explain "how" I walk.

                       

                      Thanks for all your explanations, even the ones I didn't quote.

                      :-)

                       

                      Frances, If you just started April 10th, and you are managing to run a good portion of your run, you're not doing bad at all. If you are running all your runs at MAF, you're right, every run kind of is a test. Still, it's good to set aside one particular run that you keep the same  every week or two.  Use it as your test, even when you get into tempo runs and race seasons. Give it time, build volume, and you'll be running everything before you know it. Good luck in your half marathon!  

                       

                      --Jimmy

                      log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #143

                       

                      gregw


                         Oh, okay, I guess for a "recovery" pace it's not too far off quite yet.

                         

                        For what it's worth, when I put in my recent 10 miler, I get

                        Endurance Workouts Pace/Mile Pace/K
                        Recovery Jogs 8:33 to 9:03 5:19 to 5:38
                        Long Runs 7:33 to 8:33 4:42 to 5:19
                        Easy Runs 7:33 to 8:03 4:42 to 5:01

                         

                        If you look at my log, you'll see that I mostly run in the recovery range (and I'm not even doing MAF at the moment).  When I run 8:00 pace, which McMillan calls easy, I log it as moderate (this is above MAF heart rate).  I'd chew myself up running 8:00 every day even though McMillan calls it easy.  (My route is also quite hilly though so 8:00 effort might be 8:15-8:20 on my course.)

                         

                        Now McMillan's times are all based on projected marathon pace.  Easy = MP + 30-60, Long = MP + 30-90, and Recovery + 90-120.  Now I doubt I can actually run 7:03 pace because I don't run enough miles to extend my 10-mile performance to an equivalent marathon.  If I could, maybe those paces would feel easier.

                         

                        Also, the MP + 30-120 probably only makes sense for a certain range of times.  If you're Ryan Hall, the MP = 5:00 and recovery is 6:30-7:00, which is MP + 30-40%.  Long runs would be MP + 10-30%.  [This kind of aligns with Pete Pfitzinger who says long runs should be MP + 10-20%.]

                         

                        I've thought before that MAF pace probably aligns pretty well with a percentage of marathon pace -- marathon pace you could actually run, not what the calculators say based on a 5k -- since the marathon will "expose" any aerobic deficiency.  Of course you don't want to have to run a marathon to find out your training pace!

                         

                        MTA:  Good luck on your half!

                           

                          I'm a card-carrying member of the club .... 

                           

                               I-think-my-MAF-number-is-Too-Low-for-me

                           

                          Any other members?

                          Former members with expired cards?

                           

                          I post this hoping to prove myself wrong eventually and get my membership revoked.

                          And to help other Newbies in the process of or considering a transition to Low Heart Rate training.

                          Perhaps ya'll will share your experiences about having to

                          Walk So Much

                          at the beginning, and how you eventually transitioned to Actually Running at  MAF ?

                           

                           

                          here's one expired card, I think Smile but I did not hold the card too long anyway because I understood from previous MAF+5 and MAF+10 running that those HR's were too high to do it 5 times a week without overloading myself. at/below MAF I don't get to overload myself like that!! (actually, below MAF. I did not subtract anything from 180-age officially but in practice i.e. in training runs I subtract around 2 Smile )

                           

                          so now that overtraining is out of the way, you have to be careful not to undertrain yourself either!!! that's one caveat with MAF training. basically, you probably should put in a lot of time.

                           

                          first MAF run was around 15m/m pace, which was sad because a month before that I had a lucky day when I happened to pick the HR for one run that later I made my MAF (coincidence) and that had a 11:30m/m pace or so, but let's not forget that I did not do warmup that day so that made the pace better, real pace was 12:00 or so.

                           

                          anyway, in the first run I did have to walk periodically. after a couple more runs pace improved to 14m/m and I did not have to walk anymore. Smile  MAF pace is at low 13/high 12's now. I got there by doing a lot of hours every week.

                           

                          I believe that  the first few days come with such a bad pace because the low HR is a totally new experience for your body but it will get the idea pretty fast and your pace will align up with MAF+5 MAF+10 etc paces. this is what happened to me so far. plus I got from 14 pace to 13 because that's what I was capable of a month earlier, before I regressed a little bit from running at too high HR's too often. (that old 12 m/m pace was an anomaly, IIRC I had extra low RHR from a long run 1 day before.)

                           

                          from then on you have to be patient to see real improvements later.

                           

                          I also believe that once you hit 11m/m pace at MAF, it means a solid aerobic base already and from then on you'll improve faster. 13 m/m just seems the average shitty pace (average as many LHR runners seem to start from there) that belongs to a not well developed aerobic base.

                           

                          I am now waiting and drooling for 12:00/12:30 pace at MAF...

                           

                          FWIW, I used to train at MAF+10 before finding out about teh maffetone method and a 11:00-12:00 pace belonged. so the slowdown wasn't feeling so drastic as I had already been forcing a slow pace before. still, it was horrible initially, haha! now I'm used to the 13m/m paces, it's okay.

                           

                          oh and one last thing to show why your MAF is probably not too low. the lower the MAF is the worse the aerobic base and fitness is and from that it follows that the slower your pace will be at higher HR's too. so if you can do a 10K in 1 hour, your MAF will be low but if you can do a 10K in 40mins, your MAF is probably higher than 180-age...

                             

                            I'm a card-carrying member of the club .... 

                             

                                 I-think-my-MAF-number-is-Too-Low-for-me

                             

                            Any other members?

                            ...

                            Perhaps ya'll will share your experiences about having to

                            Walk So Much

                            at the beginning, and how you eventually transitioned to Actually Running at  MAF ?

                             

                             I have comments about this, but first... how are you determining "...my-MAF-number..." ...

                            .

                            I.e. is it by formula, VO2 test, or ???


                            Beginner all over again

                              180-minus

                               

                               

                                180-minus

                                 

                                 Ok, fair enough.

                                .

                                Here's my take on the matter, and I'll start with a quote from an old (CR ?) thread in a post by "DavidD", who was quite familiar with Maffetone's results and methods:

                                .

                                "This test measures respiratory quotient (as we’ve discussed here many times), which is a measure of fat and sugar utilization. As you slowly increase the running speed on a treadmill, you can see the fat and sugar mixture change, and at some point the RQ suddenly increases. Maffetone chose the corresponding heart rate right before this deflection point as the max aerobic HR."

                                .

                                The test referred to is a VO2 test, of course.

                                .

                                Ok, when I had my VO2 test 1 1/2 years ago, it was completely obvious where this deflection point was.  My RQ (aka RER) was almost constant from an HR of about 97 or 98 right up to 117 or so, and by 119 it was ramping up essentially linearly pretty much all the way up to my AT (anaerobic threshold.)  This is also very obvious from my "fat calories / hour" graph, which had a magilla of a peak (the Matterhorn ?) right at 117.  So according to the above origin of how the max aerobic HR would be chosen, my "MAF" determined by the VO2 test would be 117.

                                .

                                Going to the definition of the 180 formula, as given by Maffetone (180- , with categories a,b,c,d and possible adjustments for age > 65 for those in c or d) my "formula MAF" at the time would have been an HR of 100.

                                .

                                So... "formula MAF" = 100, "VO2 test MAF" = 117.  Does that make me a card-carrying member?

                                .

                                Oh, BTW, at HR = 117 my RQ was 0.76, meaning that at this VO2 MAF I'm burning 80% fats and 20% carbs.



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