On the road again...
Anyway, I ramble. Sorry.
GMoney provided a link to an article at Fitness Intution's website and in the article was this snippet:
"Parker’s training advice is mind-numbingly simple: “Do nearly all of your running at just under 70 percent of maximum heart rate, calculated by the Karvonen formula (explanation follows). Throw in a some speedwork - any kind will do - and watch your race times fall.”
If you know your maximum and resting heart rate, calculating 70 percent of max per Karvonen is easy...
Maximum heart rate, minus resting heart rate, times .70, plus resting heart rate."
So, if I take my recent 5k where my MHR was 212 and figure my MHR is a few beats above that (since I didn't die), then that formula gives me 215 minus 60 (RHR) times .70 plus 60 for a final number of 168.5, which we can round down to 168.
So, what would be the way to go if you were going to train like the quote above mentions? Would I run my runs with a HR at, say, 165? So, would it be the easy runs at 165, maybe a day each week of some tempo runs and then a day or 2 of below MAF recovery runs? I'm way open to ideas if you've got some to throw my way.
Thanks, guys.
I write. I read. I run. One time, I ran a lot on my 50th birthday.
Paul
I don't have it with me right now, it's in storage. I'll go on memory (oh boy!).
Several of the case studies were runners who stopped progressing, ran everything hard. They just incorporated the 70%HRR on easy days and it made a difference in their health and times. For the first time, they were getting some recovery time, and some work in a range where they burning a little more fat than they did before. They experienced the same slowing in the beginning as we do under MAF, but then began to get faster on their easy days.
How long this worked for these individuals, including Parker, I don't know.
Parker would run his marathons at 70-75% HRR, and found success.
In the past I have tried his 700%HRR idea for the next step up in HR above MAF during marathon training, after a good base period. I ran a big zone of 15-20 beats, maxing out at the 70%. I never ran at the 70% for the whole run, like I do with MAF from time to time. The runs felt comfortable.
The way I used them were like in the Hadd tradition of first working at the lower HR's for awhile, then start to add in some higher stress, but not too much extra. I never used his tempo runs, but would do an LT run or MRP run on occasion.
Your experiment idea might be worthwhile. If you have a solid base, the 70%HRR shouldn't feel uncomfortable. If it does, you might rethink it.
Once i get my hands on the book again, I'll attempt to write a report on his method.
--Jimmy
Beinhorn just expanded on this point today. So you might want to look at his latest posting at www.fitnessintuition.com. It's a two-part series. The splash page is part 2 ("The Most Enjoyable Pace"). The link at the end of the first paragraph will take you back to part 1 ("How to Increase Your Mileage Enjoyably"). It's incredible how the stuff Beinhorn is writing right now is so much on my wavelength. Take a look at my signature after reading Beinhorn and you'll see where I'm coming from.
I'll defer to Jimmy on the precise Parker recommendations. I don't have his book. Since I'm still sick and not running, I'm in the mood to rant. So now, if you'll excuse me.....
Beinhorn's take seems to be that 70% HRR is a reasonable starting point, but that we each need to take it day to day. Don't be afraid to adjust the pace or length of your planned run. Just aim to finish it, in the words of Lydiard, "pleasantly tired." (N.B. the difference with Maffetone, who says you should finish a MAF run feeling as if you could do it again without difficulty.) My difficulties with this approach - and something Beinhorn didn't address too much - seem to be (1) it requires that you take a lot of responsibility for your own day to day running, and (2) at the beginning you really only know when you're going to far by actually going too far. Let me take these separately:
Responsibility - Coaches and training plans can be great. They tell you what to do (or at the very least give you a framework of what to do), so you don't have to decide each and every moment. Of course that puts you out of touch with your own experience - "Man, I feel bad, but Coach said do 8 miles today with the last 4 at marathon pace..." They also give you someone to blame when things don't work out as you'd like. If you take Beinhorn - and Lydiard - seriously you've got to be ready to let all that go and, in training, do what your body's telling you. A lot of times we get into the ego trap that Beinhorn describes, and that leads to...
Overdoing It - Yep, the only way you really know you're pushing it too far is to push it too far. Do that a few times and you start to appreciate the warning signs, but until you do expect to flame out every so often. This is a big danger for embarking on anaerobic work without a solid aerobic foundation. A good aerobic background can give you some (but not unlimited) cover for making anaerobic mistakes. That said, if you're going to bother to flame out, make it spectacular. Don't do it halfway.
So when you take responsibility you open yourself to the possibility of overdoing it. By overdoing it you learn how not to overdo it in the future. In that way running's like life, you really only learn how to be responsible by f-ing up. Of course, it's just as easy to overdo it without taking responsibility. These are the days when you persist in doing what the coach, schedule, expert, whatever tells you to do even while your body says it's wrong. And this explains what I think is the great truth - you can never escape responsibility for your own training. You might blame the coach/schedule (and they get blamed for bad stuff far more often than they're credited for success), your own inexperience, or something else, but, ultimately, we are each responsible for our own training, our own mistakes (and our own successes). Clarence Bass calls this the "ownership principle."
So, you asked about training heart rates and speedwork and got yourself and heavy earful. YIKES!!! What's up with that, man? What's a guy to do? Well, you know the answer. If you're asking about tempo runs and such then you're informed about what they are and how to do them. Try them out, and see how they fit. How do you feel when you do them? When you're done? The next day? Get a sense of what your body wants each day before you mentally commit yourself to a particular workout - that's where the sub MAF warm up comes in really handy. A day scheduled for a tempo run might turn into a easy recovery run, or it might just be that you need an extra long warm up.
Clarence Bass is a bodybuilder, but he doesn't usually lift to failure - says it's not productive and breaks you down. Running's the same way - that's what Lydiard and Beinhorn meant by "leave a little in the tank." One really good thing about MAF is that it breaks your ego, so it should be relatively easier for you to accept that you need the easy days and when you need them. As long as you keep most of the running easy, you don't finish any run feeling thrashed, and you shut off your ego and really listen to what your body wants to do you'll be o.k.
Consistently Slow
(1) it requires that you take a lot of responsibility for your own day to day running, and (2) at the beginning you really only know when you're going to far by actually going too far. Let me take these separately: Overdoing It - Yep, the only way you really know you're pushing it too far is to push it too far. Do that a few times and you start to appreciate the warning signs, but until you do expect to flame out every so often. This is a big danger for embarking on anaerobic work without a solid aerobic foundation. A good aerobic background can give you some (but not unlimited) cover for making anaerobic mistakes. That said, if you're going to bother to flame out, make it spectacular. Don't do it halfway. So when you take responsibility you open yourself to the possibility of overdoing it. By overdoing Get a sense of what your body wants each day before you mentally commit yourself to a particular workout - that's where the sub MAF warm up comes in really handy. A day scheduled for a tempo run might turn into a easy recovery run, or it might just be that you need an extra long warm up. . As long as you keep most of the running easy, you don't finish any run feeling thrashed, and you shut off your ego and really listen to what your body wants to do you'll be o.k.
(1) it requires that you take a lot of responsibility for your own day to day running, and (2) at the beginning you really only know when you're going to far by actually going too far. Let me take these separately:
So when you take responsibility you open yourself to the possibility of overdoing it. By overdoing
Get a sense of what your body wants each day before you mentally commit yourself to a particular workout - that's where the sub MAF warm up comes in really handy. A day scheduled for a tempo run might turn into a easy recovery run, or it might just be that you need an extra long warm up.
. As long as you keep most of the running easy, you don't finish any run feeling thrashed, and you shut off your ego and really listen to what your body wants to do you'll be o.k.
Why brother with a schedule? Just go out and run until to get injured a couple of dozen times. Your sub
MAF warm up is good. Most new runners do not know what their body is telling them until 2 or 3 years down the road and a host of minor injuries.
McMillan
Your body is saying one thing but all you can hear is don't be a" girliman"
The rambling is over.
Run until the trail runs out.
SCHEDULE 2016--
The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff
http://bkclay.blogspot.com/
www.fitnessintuition.com.
Thanks, Good read.
Now ,I am just more confused.
Why brother with a schedule? Just go out and run until to get injured a couple of dozen times. Your sub MAF warm up is good. Most new runners do not know what their body is telling them until 2 or 3 years down the road and a host of minor injuries. McMillan "First, think back on a particularly tough workout, something where you didn't feel great but you gutted it out" Your body is saying one thing but all you can hear is don't be a" girliman" The rambling is over.
You nailled it. MAF and LHR will generally keep you from getting injured. For a while after you step out of that "comfort" zone and push it, you risk pushing it too far. Doesn't matter if you're coached, following a schedule, or making it up as you go along. It would be great if there were a surefire way to allow new runners to run intuitively without injury risk, but I don't think there is. Best we can do is learn from our mistakes and the mistakes of others, hope our mistakes aren't too serious, and try not to repeat them. Maybe learn a thing or two in the process.
That rant of mine was a long time coming. I think it's the product of the ever increasing complexity of the modern world, in the west, particularly, and in the U.S., especially particularly. Life seems more complex and chaotic each day. The more things seem to slip beyond our control, the more tightly we want to control the things - like running - we think we can. In it's own way MAF/LHR training is a manifestation of this (though a benign manifestation, for the most part). Over-managing or pacing our races or over-planning our tapers so as to achieve - but never jeapordize - a pre-selected, pre-determined result is another. In running these days it seems we want to know the outcome before we start and, in the process, sacrifice the purity of the experience and a chance to transcend what we thought was possible.
More and more now, training for me is about giving up control - accepting that I don't control how my body's going to respond on any given day and being prepared to respond to what I think it wants. I can influence how I feel, for sure. I can make smart or dumb decisions. But I can't control how I feel or what my body needs. Like Mittleman wrote, it's a partnership between your spirit (ego) and your body (id). Your spirit needs goals, but it can't force them on your body or you'll break. Likewise, leave your body to its own hedonistic ways and you'll just end up sitting on the couch, drinking beer with Jennifer Aniston on your lap (yes, Jimmy, I'm a "Rachel" guy). Not that that's such a bad thing, but you need your spirit to give you a swift kick in the pants every so often. You gotta bring your higher intelligence to the game. Formulate a plan that lets you reach your spirit's goals. Then execute it listening to your body. Then, when race day rolls around run like hell, leave it all out there, and come back with a good story to tell your grandkids.
Max McMaffelow Esq.
Responsibility will be a tough nut to crack, however.
Port-a-Pottys and clothing will seem strange to this Kierkegaard devotee.
All I can do is try?!
Thanks for the insights, GM!!!
I settled for a hundred bucks and an image campaign that shows I'm in fact a really, really smart guy.
Now that I'm back, I see that G has vented his spleen all over our dear forum.
Since we're ranting, G, here's my rant:
--If you can run a 2:15 marathon, and cherry-pick an event where you know that the next fastest finisher will be 2:30. Don't act like you did anything great when you win. Might as well be Dustin Pedroia and go play second base for a Little League team and act like you're doing something amazing when you get 4 home runs in the game. Same goes for cherry-picking 5ker's, etc. Be honest and say you just showed up for the money, and that you like stepping on ants.
--If all you're going to offer is one inch of bodyglide, don't make the canister 4 inches long. It's a waste of plastic and a visual illusion I can do without.
--Hey, feet! Could you be any more grotesque?
--Gray hair on my titties, it's officially all over.
--Watching "Deep Impact" and its vision of Americans evacuating the coast. They're all sitting on the highway in a stand-still traffic jam that will get them nowhere. Get out of your cars and run you fat-assed bastards. Even the slowest of you could be 26.2 miles away in 7 hours.
--If you are wearing an Ippod and you run by, I will no longer say hi to you, because ninety percent of you never hear me and don't say hi back, making me feel like Mr. Hi! The Johnny Appleseed of hellos on display in a zoo for pollyannnic human beings, just stared at like a hippo, throwing me an occasional cigar to eat.
--don't pretend we are having a conversation when all you do is cut me off after 2 sentences and go on and on like everything you have to say is the most freaking interesting thing since Moe, Larry, and Curlies snoring rhythms. The art of conversation requires that you listen once in awhile, and that you actually take interest in what the other person is saying by asking questions or saying things that actually shows you are willing to go in a different direction. This involves PLAY. Hey Mr. Interesting, why don't you try playing with me in a conversation, instead of trying to be the center of attention. I just want to barf on your every word. Bilious chunks of my anger smothering your monologue.
--It's absolutely clear to me that running is good for you. Every 70+year old runner that I know looks great, healthy, their limbs are strong, and they are vivacious. Every 70+ I know that just sits around and watches Tv or sits in front of slot machine day in and day out, look old, have weak ankles and legs, and look like they are just about finished.
--Dick and Ricky Hoyt completing the 1989 Ironman Triathlon is one of the most powerful moments on video. Check it out on you tube. Just follow the 1989 Mark Allen Vs. Dave sCott
videos. The whole story is within, as well as a great watch of an awesome event.
mark allen vs. dave scott 1989
Gee, I'm not ranting anymore.
Can I merge onto the rant ramp?
How bout that 55 mph limit on the I- 285 beltway. Ha Ha.
Elderly folks headed for Florida don't have a chance doing less then 75.
lg
O.K., Jimmy, point well taken. Let my sickness get the best of me and went overboard. "E" me. Apologies.
Yapper - I wrote this elsewhere, but I hope you don't take that rant personally. It wasn't directed at you, but it probably didn't help you much either, so, again, apologies.
Here's a good, positive take from the place where I was trying to come from yesterday:
"Nothing happens when and how you would really love it to - the right time is an illusion where we imagine everything will be perfect. When the best opportunities came to me I had tendonitis, felt unprepared, or tired, or had broken my wrist. "I don't wait for the right time anymore, I just react to whatever comes along. The right time is just about taking opportunities. You have opportunities open to you every single day, so don't wait to seize them. -- Sebastien Foucan
"Nothing happens when and how you would really love it to - the right time is an illusion where we imagine everything will be perfect. When the best opportunities came to me I had tendonitis, felt unprepared, or tired, or had broken my wrist.
"I don't wait for the right time anymore, I just react to whatever comes along. The right time is just about taking opportunities. You have opportunities open to you every single day, so don't wait to seize them.
-- Sebastien Foucan
G - No apolgies needed. I'm soaking up the stuff over at Fitness Intuition like a sponge. Thanks for sending us their way.
Most of my questions aren't being asked so that I can find the right "method" for training. I'm just wide open to new ideas about where to go next, and what I'm reading at FI.com is really resonating with me.
Happy
Beinhorn just expanded on this point today. So you might want to look at his latest posting at www.fitnessintuition.com. It's a two-part series. The splash page is part 2 ("The Most Enjoyable Pace"). The link at the end of the first paragraph will take you back to part 1 ("How to Increase Your Mileage Enjoyably"). It's incredible how the stuff Beinhorn is writing right now is so much on my wavelength. Take a look at my signature after reading Beinhorn and you'll see where I'm coming from. that's what Lydiard and Beinhorn meant by "leave a little in the tank." One really good thing about MAF is that it breaks your ego, so it should be relatively easier for you to accept that you need the easy days and when you need them. As long as you keep most of the running easy, you don't finish any run feeling thrashed, and you shut off your ego and really listen to what your body wants to do you'll be o.k.
that's what Lydiard and Beinhorn meant by "leave a little in the tank." One really good thing about MAF is that it breaks your ego, so it should be relatively easier for you to accept that you need the easy days and when you need them. As long as you keep most of the running easy, you don't finish any run feeling thrashed, and you shut off your ego and really listen to what your body wants to do you'll be o.k.
G,
I just sat down and read some articles on www.fitnessintuition.com - had not had time to focus earlier. It is one of the best running links I have clicked on in recent time - Thank you very much
Your so-called rant was not offensive in the least to me. In fact, I find it refreshing when people let a little of themselves out of the bag so we can all see who you are and what your thoughts are. I am a huge fan of using intuition in running and racing - however, I don't know why and how I started to go so seriously wrong with my running that I ended up burned out. I think it started when I hired a coach to train me for the Boston Marathon in 2008 - that's when I started to go into serious overtraining and found myself injured for the first time since I started running years earlier. I did not trust that I could train myself for the marathon so I did everything on the schedule - pushed myself very hard, was proud of what I could do etc.; I did not take seriously the fatigue I felt - only approx every 4 weeks did I allow myself to take 2 days in a row off in order to get rid of the fatigue - this extra rest was part of the schedule, but lo and behold, it was not nearly enough for my body to recover and get rested. 5 weeks prior to the Boston Marathon I was so injured I could harly run a mile....... I was devastated. Knowing what this experience taught me, I think I could have trained at least that well by myself without a coach; but at the time, I did not feel confident in myself.
This morning one of the articles I read on Beinhorn's site is his first article about recovery - I am rediscovering "recovery" as in taking time OFF - the last couple of weeks I have only run 3 days per week. I feel free in many ways and more importantly I feel I have discovered (the hard way - over 1 year of running injured) that recovery=time off is a key component of my previous and future running success and happiness.
Beinhorn's article is a wonderful read and gives me even more reason to think I am on the right track.
G, You've done a great job in putting this link on this site. Thank you and may you recover swiftly from your current illness. Take good care of yourself
Like the part about Snell just lying on the grass after each 800m interval, until he felt his energy return and felt like doing another. That's being in touch with your body!
That 7:00 pace thing is interesting. Also the info about Bowerman. I remember from the movie where Donald Sutherland played Bowerman (Without Limits?), and he took Prefontaine's heartrate and told him to slow down.
Flower, interesting how a coach ran you into the ground like that. I have seen that happen with runners with coaches. The coach has his schedule for you , and you trust him. Someone of the crazy things I see these coaches make their runners do. Often, these coaches are former runners who almost succeeded, but flamed out due to injury, or going out too fast in their races. Then they bring the same methods to their runners, and run them into the ground the same way they ran themselves into the ground. Recovery is for the weak. If you don't put the same amount of hours in training as your opponent, then you'll never be great. All that. Maffetone, Mittleman, and Allen (and Gmoney) all talk about being in touch with the reality of your body (not just the "fun" parts). I think back to one of my favorites, Joan Benoit Samuelson, and how injuries knocked her out early. She was notorious for running everything hard and would run through every injury. One wonders how many more races she would have won following solid recovery principles. But that was the thinking back then. Almost everyone else trained the same way. What Mark Allen did in his training was pretty out there for the times. Take two full months off? What is he crazy? He won his last Ironman at age 37. I posted a link in my rant to the Mark Allen vs. Dave scott 1989 Ironman duel videos on youtube. In there is an interview with Lisa Laiti. She trained with tri-great Pauly Newby-Fraser for 3 weeks before the 1989 event. What impressed her most was how Newby-Fraser made her easy days really easy. Lisa would train everything hard. Interesting that during the event, Laiti was experiencing severe dehydration symptoms, but ignored them, passed out and broke her neck. Talk about not listening to your body. When something is that wrong--maybe it's time to stop.
I think you'll end up being a great self-coach, Flower. You'll make it back to Boston, and wherever, and you'll be healthy for a change.
I've been thinking a lot about MAF pace these days, and what kind of speeds you can really take it to. There's a few members of this forum that have brought it really low like Bgazango, Jesse, etc. Mafffetone writes about this when he is describing aerobic intervals. He says that some athletes develop their system so well that running at MAF becomes too stressful. For example, Allen developed his MAF speed (5 miles test) to 5:20, Mike Pigg was in the same neighborhood. Allen ran his marathons in 6:00-6:11 pace. Of course, that pace is after already completing the first 2 legs of the race. Still, most of us could run at our current MAF paces for 2-3 hours pretty comfortably. What I'm thinking is that there is great potential in the aerobic fibers. You can get yourself so fast using them exclusively, that perhaps, it becomes difficult to run at MAF pace for extended periods. That is why he woulf have these athletes do MAF intervals. I might be off on this, but that is how I understand it.
Happy Sunday!
Thanks for the compliments guys. Glad no one was too bent over my little rant. I don't want to go down as the guy who wrecked this forum. It's a nice group of considerate, compassionate people. A special place.
Flower - you're on the right path, now for sure. I think the most important things about working successfully with a coach are knowing when the coach is wrong, and not being afraid to insist that you're right when you are.
Recovery is good. Very good. Hard workouts don't make you a better runner. They just set the stage for you to become a better runner by recovery and biological magic of supercompensation. Through recovery you become stronger and ready yourself for the next workout thereby completing the circle.
Jimmy - I can't believe I just got included in the same sentence as Maffetone, Mittleman, and Allen, without the word "not" before my name. I'm feeling better already. Add Mittleman to the list of guys who said he couldn't run at MAF all the time as it would be too intense. We should all be so lucky.
Since the Ginger/MaryAnn (or Rachel/Monica) thing seems to have run its course let me shamelessly dip into the well of blatant sexism once again and suggest that the ultimate women's race I'd like to have seen would be Joan Benoit Samuelson circa 1984 versus Ann Trason circa 1994. That one would have made an Ali/Lewis fantasy match look like childs' play.
Gotta run - it's my daughter's birthday!
Jimmyb
I am adding an interval workout to my weekly schedule. It will be at Maff .25 mile Maff -5 recovery .25 mile. 1 mile WU. Not on the track. In a relatively flat parking lot.
Sound vaguely familiar.