Hi Michelle, I don't think you're out of line for shooting for 3:45 next year. I think if you train well, and dont get injured, it's definitely within reach. What makes me think this is you have some good shorter distance speed. Ýour prediction based on your 10 miler finish is around 3:48. I suspect you could do this with any of the popular ready made plans, or develop your own plan. Many books on running have chapters on writing your own training schedule (e.g., The Competitive Runners Handbook by Glover). If you have some of your own unique training ideas, that would fun to try them out, and see how they work, but it may not give you the greatest chance of success (simply because it may take some time to develop). Your idea of splitting the race into 2 paces is interesting. In some sense it is like the Galloway walk/run method.

Michelle, Your general idea of training to build endurance before working on speed is, I think, a good one. I have also used the perfessorR's idea of weekly mileage goals, which allows for more flexibility for us family folks. The problem I had was the Sunday-night pressure that resulted when circumstances prevented much running during the week. With three boys in scouts, basketball, piano, and just finished with soccer, I've been getting better at working in a run during my weekdays. Right now, I'm trying to get in 8-10 miles each workday, during scheduled breaks. However, today's office lunch made this a carb-loading, rather than much of a running, day. Finally, although I think that running different paces during the marathon itself might not give you the best possible time, if you think it will work for you, you should give it a try and then let us know!

I have also used the perfessorR's idea of weekly mileage goals, which allows for more flexibility for us family folks.

I find that I get frustrated when I can't get my mileage in on the days I figured I would. My house is always hectic with three teenagers and a 1st grader. In the mornings I can't rely on the kids enough to get themselves up. My husband leaves at 6:00 a.m., and the older kids need to get up between 6 and 6:30...out the door by 7:00 and 7:20. So I really need to be done running by 6:30 at the latest. On days when any of them oversleep it's a nightmare since we have only one shower - and THEN often I end up driving at least one of them to school. I joked with a friend of mine that this working 35 hours a week thing is really getting in the way of my running. If I didn't have to constantly watch the clock and be at work by 9:00 each day I could just run after taking my youngest son to school. But since I don't get paid to run, I don't think my husband would understand if I decided to stay home instead.

Any suggestions?

Not sure what I'm doing here. I have enough group(s) in my life already; one. But somehow I wandered in here and found your question, Michelle, so I figured I'd chime in. I'm with you on not liking formal training plans. Some people need them as motivation and that's cool but to me it's more important to have the flexibility to change things on the fly to fit my training into my life and not the other way around. Like Prof, I tend to have a weekly mileage goal and I also have an idea what I want my long run and mid-week mid-long run to be and what general kind of workout I want to do--but I reserve the right to make changes right up to and including the moment when I'm 4 miles into the run. I may be alone in this but I find that a long, easy paced run is mentally a lot more difficult than if I incorporate some speed, and most of the time I feel like a run like that is an opportunity lost. Often it is as simple as just picking it up to near MP for the last 4 miles or so, but it's really, really rare that I go out and do a whole 2 hour+ run at a consistent, easy pace. I'm not really sure there's a lot of value in doing that unless you're running a certain distance for the first time and just want to make sure you can. But you've run a marathon so this is not an issue. To me I have to really work to fit 2 hour runs into my schedule so I want to make them count. Next, I don't think alternating 5ks at 8 pace and 9 pace is a good race strategy at all (it's probably a great workout for one of your long runs though.) You'd use fuel really inefficiently that way. It's a good strategy to start slow and pick it up late, but the change in pace in a race cannot be as dramatic as going from 9 pace to 8 pace. I think the best way to think about the marathon is as a 20 mile warmup and a 10k race. I've still never completely carried out this strategy but at least trying to do so has helped me. And there's always next time. I'll second Prof's suggestion to run a lot of races at 15k and up but I would say go ahead and race them, don't treat them like training runs or MP runs, unless you're within 3 weeks of your goal marathon. Just race them. The best way to get good at racing is to race. I find that races in the HM to 20 mile range are the absolute best training runs you can do, and also are really good practice. I plan to include a 16 miler, 30k, HM and 20-miler in my Boston build up. I'll race them all except maybe the 16 miler because it comes so early in the year (January) that I'll probably be just building up mileage at that point, plus it's likely to be cold as hell in Derry, NH on January 28th. You race some harder thhan others but a race is a race, not a training run. I don't think 3:45 is out of line at all for you. The last thing I'll add is that to run a BQ marathon you don't need much if any speed work at all. I'll have long stretches, weeks at a time, when I'll barely crack MP pace except for the occiasional strides. Even when I do run fast, it's never as fast at the McMillan calculator or other such message-board-dogma says I should be training. I may do a workout of 5 x 1000m that's supposed to be at 5k pace and the 1000s wind up at 6:05 pace, then I'll show up at a 5k race and run 5:45's. Train slow, race fast. That works for me. I think it's really important to give yourself a wide range when it comes to target training paces, and adjust based on how you feel that day. Trying to hit some pace for a workout because the book or schedule says you should is a great way to get burned out, injured or generally make running un-fun.

This is JMO, but going from a 9 min mile to an 8 min mile late in the marathon will be, at best, very difficult, and at worst, impossible.

I was thinking that very same thing. This is what happens when I'm running, I try to come up with some creative plan to improve my marathon time but when it comes down to race day I'll just get out there and run, totally ignoring any consideration of a plan.

Not sure what I'm doing here. I have enough group(s) in my life already; one. But somehow I wandered in here and found your question, Michelle, so I figured I'd chime in.

Thanks Mike, I appreciate this. I'm a slow learner with running. I'm eager to get out there but am finding out that my schedule isn't as running friendly as I need it to be. At this point I have realized that what I need most is more mileage. I am running my next marathon with Pam and will hope to keep up with her enough to at least keep her within sight the whole race. I'm not sure what the odds of that are but I'm going to give it my best try. Until then, I keep on increasing with my weekly long runs and not worry so much about my tempo runs. Now that my treadmill has died I'll be running outside all the time and I have a feeling this is going to help more than I had imagined it would. Just in the past week or so I've noticed that my per mile time dipped down a little as my muscles are getting used to runnig outside.