If you haven't yet read it, get and read Stu Mittleman's book, Slow Burn. He explains a lot in there what you all are asking. Basically 180-age-5 if you are just beginning. Stick to that and if you need to walk, then walk. I'm not sure that running any slower than that will help you get fitter....as a matter of fact in Slow Burn, Stu suggests how to adjust the zones to suit you...which I think we all need to do rather than blindly follow a formula. I am now running at 130, which I know is a lot slower than I need for aerobic development, but it's an experiment just to see if I can and do improve at this HR. I will say I feel better than i have in years, but don't feel like i'm preparing myself to run a good marathon Steve

Yes, Van Aaken is the original and the master. We can learn a lot from his ways....one key to his teachings is to move a lot, even if a lot of it is walking! The more hours you do, the fitter animal you will be! Steve

and my mind is creating cooking recipes, remebering various food parties and stuff like taht meaning I am burning sugar and running low on it.

Ah, femme fatale Julia Child and her fat rendering recipies? A maf visionary... Pass the buttah! Precisely how I was "drawn" to lhr/maf. That and lobstah, of course. LOL Forgive the hatchet job, Rudy. ....Just love how your mind works! Bon Appetit !! lg

thanks everybody for listening to my tummy rumblings. Aaken was coaching young guns at elite level, say they were in their 20's ro so. Aaken would not let them run faster than 150, but often much lower. now with some nice number manipulations : 180 - 20 - 10 = 150 I read this, that even the elite fast young guns do have the -10 factor in there

to sum it up, using formula 180-age-10 is my attitude since nobody is realy healhy and aerobicaly fit anymore than taking this maf HR further maf-10 gives the critical sugar-fat training point and going further 10 point lower gives close to fat only zone. so in my view calculate maf=180-age-10 than under maf - 20 to maf - 30 should be fat safe zone aand here lots of session needs to be done depleted in fasting mode, might take weeks to get body to switch. teh zone maf-10 to maf-20 will use some sugars so should not be used that often, maf Hr should only be used for tests (every 3 weeks ?) the nonimportant races is fun to do controled at MAF HR + 10, +20, +30 and keep database of those results and only occasionaly very important races going flat out

It's interesting to see how the zones you describe link up to what Mittleman recommends as the baseline for his zone settings in "Slow Burn". Are you familiar with the different sensory cues he describes for each zone? Without the HRM do you allow your sensory experiences to guide you in your workouts?

If you haven't yet read it, get and read Stu Mittleman's book, Slow Burn. He explains a lot in there what you all are asking. Basically 180-age-5 if you are just beginning. Stick to that and if you need to walk, then walk. I'm not sure that running any slower than that will help you get fitter....as a matter of fact in Slow Burn, Stu suggests how to adjust the zones to suit you...which I think we all need to do rather than blindly follow a formula. I am now running at 130, which I know is a lot slower than I need for aerobic development, but it's an experiment just to see if I can and do improve at this HR. I will say I feel better than i have in years, but don't feel like i'm preparing myself to run a good marathon Steve

Steve, I bought the book today on ebay for $2 + $3.99 S&H. Thanks

... Furthermore, I am interested in more details about how you increased your mileage from 20MPW - how did your weekly schedule look, how many rest days, did you run the same mileage every day, did you use hard/easy in terms of time spent/mileage per day etc?

OK, here's some 2008 history, in two chunks. First chunk is after doing a run-walk system the first two weeks of February until I could "run" continuously at my HR 117 target - roughly mid-Feb through mid-April with dates but not days of the week. Second chunk is after mid-April, pretty much days of the week but no dates (cribbed from the "Masters" user group 40/40 threads.) Just laying this out is probably better than me pontificating about some "system" I was using, etc. Usually longer days followed by shorter (or "off") days, take it easier if you feel more tired or need recovery... throw in a shorter week to let the body recover sometimes, etc. I apologize in advance for the length or wordiness of this stuff, but it might give an idea about how I proceeded after a 3-month layoff following the spring/summer/fall of 2007 where I trained at a higher HR. First chunk - all runs easy unless otherwise specified as easier (HR 107 +/-) or easiest (HR 97 +/-.) 2/18 6 miles, roads 2/20 6 miles, roads 2/21 7.5 miles, roads 2/23 5 miles, roads week total 24.5 miles 2/25 7.5 miles, roads 2/27 10 miles, roads + trails 2/29 6.5 miles, roads 3/02 7 miles, roads week total 31 miles 3/03 6 miles, trails; 3.5 miles, trails 3/04 6 miles, roads 3/05 5 miles, roads 3/07 5.5 miles, roads week total 26 miles 3/11 11 miles, roads 3/12 5 miles easier, roads 3/13 10 miles. trails 3/14 4.5 miles easier, roads 3/15 12 miles, trails, killer hills week total 42.5 miles 3/17 11 miles, trails 3/18 6 miles roads 3/19 10.5 miles, roads + track 3/21 11.5 miles, trails 3/23 16.5 miles, roads + track week total 55.5 miles 3/24 4.5 miles easier, roads 3/25 5 miles easier, trails 3/26 5 miles easiest, indoor track 3/27 10 miles, roads + track 3/29 7 miles, roads + trails 3/30 6.5 miles, roads + track week total 38 miles --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Skip a couple weeks of records here... then start the second chunk around mid-April. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- my week (I did too much - but I'll take it easy next week): Mon 4/14 14.5 easy , park trails Tue 4/15 5.2 easier , random route Wed 4/16 13.5 easy , park trails Thu 4/17 5.3 easy , roads+hs track Fri 4/18 15.7 easy , park trails Sat 4/19 8.0 easy AM roads+bridges; 6.7 easy PM park trails Sun 4/20 4.8 easier , recovery run - roads+hs track Week Total 73.7 miles ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Skip a couple weeks here... Mileage was lower because of that 73+ mile week ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- posted: 5/10/2008 at 2:32 PM modified: 5/12/2008 at 10:56 AM Plan - see if I'm recovered from that 70+ mile week a couple weeks ago Mon - off, no excuse Tue - 13 miles easy, nature park trails Wed - 5 miles easier (HR 105) Thur - 13 miles "easy" but killer hills (hit the wall?) Fri - off Sat - 10 miles easy, roads & asphalt trail Sun - off Total - 41 miles --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- posted: 5/13/2008 at 11:08 AM modified: 5/18/2008 at 5:52 PM Plan - get enough sleep and some comfortable runs Mon - 7.5 miles easy (incl HR/pace progression test at track) Tue - 13.3 miles easy (nature park trails) Wed - off Thu - off Fri - 9 miles easy (road/track, HR 111); Sat - 9 miles easy (roads/trail) Sun - 3.5 miles easy(roads) Total – 42.3 ---------------------------------------------------------- posted: 5/19/2008 at 5:33 PM modified: 5/25/2008 at 1:02 PM … Plan for this week: make sure I'm fully recovered from last Sat nite - there went that sleep goal - and Sun morning (severe bloating and pain, eventually diarrhea... no food for 36 hrs before Mon run... not an excuse... just the facts... ) Mon - 10.5 miles easy (very funny incident at hs track...) Tue - 3 miles easy, 1 mile 120m strides, 1 mile easy Wed - 9.5 miles easier (HR 107) Thur - 11.5 miles easy (felt strong) Fri - 5 miles easier Sat - 11 miles (felt like 11+) (?easy?... just a hard day...) Sun - off Total 52.5 miles ... seem to be recovered ok ----------------------------------------------------------- posted: 5/27/2008 at 4:19 PM modified: 6/1/2008 at 9:06 PM Thanks, Holly. Plan this week is to stay healthy (and recover from a nagging quad strain after Mon run) Mon - 11 miles easy Tue - off [follow Holly's lead and join MM... #970] Wed - off, 2 hours walk+easy jogs (quad rehab) Thur - 10 miles easy, trails Fri - off Sat - off Sun - 14 miles easy Total - 35 miles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- posted: 6/3/2008 at 5:40 PM modified: 6/8/2008 at 1:33 P …Plan - take it easy on the legs, have a few rest/off days Mon - off Tue - 13 miles easy, park trails Wed - 5 miles easier Thur - 1 mile easier then 13.5 miles easy, park trails Fri - 4.5 miles easier Sat - 10 miles fairly easy then 1 mile easier Sun - off Total for week: 48 miles --------------------------------------------------------------------- posted: 6/9/2008 at 8:45 PM modified: 6/15/2008 at 9:55 PM …No special plan, just take it easy and keep the legs fresh for Saturday... Mon - 1.5 miles easier, 10.5 miles easy on park trails Tue - 1.5 miles easier, 5.5 miles easy Wed - 3 miles easier, 4.5 miles easy Thu - 1.5 miles easier, 3 miles easy Fri - off Sat - 0.25 miles easiest, 13.1 miles medium, 1.25 miles easier Sun - 1.5 miles easier, 5 miles easy Total - 52.1 miles "Plan" worked ok... legs felt great after Saturday's half marathon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh, well... that's kinda what Mid-Feb through mid-June was like last year. Maybe it gives an idea about how I approached just getting out and running easy to build up the mpw. Gino