2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 580 times)

Nimmals


     

    [and actually, that's a good question for the men here - if you beat another guy, but saw him given an award ahead of you, would you feel uncomfortable contacting the race management and asking them to double check the results?]

     

    I still feel a bit awkward when I talk about wanting to win, though I just move past it.  And, for the same reasons, I feel a bit of hesitation when contesting results that I believe are wrong.  But...this is ultimately a competition, and there is nothing wrong with asking that the rules be fairly enforced, and the awards fairly given.

    One of our local timing companies Race Aweful hates me because I once questioned a result.  As 2nd Overall I have right of first refusal so I can choose Masters money if more than 2nd place. So they gave me second place which was half the masters money. So I sent an email to timing company.  Owner got upset. I understand afterwards he didn't time race all finish chute banners said  Race Aweful. He loaned his equipment to a friend who timed.

      Mikkey: Congrats again on the W!  Any plans for a fall marathon or other races?

       

      Sling: The pain you describe is quite similar to what I had for my hernias; the pain kind of comes and goes and was usually aggravated by hard/long runs or workouts. And eventually you would see a little bump where the hernia is, though that can take a while (year or more) to present. Anyway, hopefully it is not that but something to keep in mind. And Brewing Runner gave some good advice; running should be above all something that adds happiness and health to your life. Whatever mileage or goals/lack of goals that involves then that's the way to go. Hope you can sort it out.

       

      Madison: Good luck this weekend!

       

      Weather: Smart plan to cut back and take some days off; that should pay off down the road.

       

      Swim: I was looking back at what you did training for the Flagstaff mile. Good stuff.  Any key workouts you recommend for 1-mile training?

       

      Cinnamon: That's a cool resolution to the AG placement for your marathon, glad it worked out. Looks like you're recovering well from the race.

       

      I've been travelling for work most of this week and had too much beer most nights so did not run as many days as intended, too hard to wake up early with the time change. Flying back tomorrow and will get back to more frequent running and less frequent drinking.

       

      Weekly Summary
      Monday, May 06, 2019 thru Sunday, May 12, 2019

      <tfoot> </tfoot>
      Day Miles Pace Description Egain Link
      Tue 14.0 7:46 MLR with 3 x 1 mile 701 strava
      Thu 12.1 8:07 Morning Run in Biberach 593 strava
      Sat 10.4 8:49 Lunch Run / Vienna 627 strava
      Sun 16.1 7:52 Long run in Vienna 713 strava
        52.6 8:05   2634  

      5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

      Up next: Hartford Marathon (Oct. 12)

      slingrunner


        Andres- Thanks for the ideas.  Sounds pretty miserable what you went through!  I'm hoping I'm finally over it, as I put together a fairly speedy 10 mile hilly trail run without any pain, and I've been good for my last 3 or 4 runs in general.  My low volume is probably helping.  I guess as I turn 40 in a couple months, I'm concerned that if I take a couple years off and try again, I won't be getting faster, although a few of you crazy fast senior citizens give me hope.

         

        Also, to answer an earlier comment, it's now a 20 minute *drive* to where I used to run, so it's not just an easy warmup, unless I can get a treadmill in my car Smile

         

        I'll suck it up for now.  My g/f and her 3 kids move in, in about 1 month when school lets out, so I'm feeling maybe I need to rearrange my priorities a bit.  Like all of us here, I'm a bit insane, but not insane enough to be getting up at 4AM to get my midweek runs in.

         

        Back to mostly lurk mode...

        5k- 18:55 (2018)    10K- 39:04 (2017)    Marathon- 3:00:10 (2018)

        Swim5599


          Mikkey: Congrats again on the W!  Any plans for a fall marathon or other races?

           

          Sling: The pain you describe is quite similar to what I had for my hernias; the pain kind of comes and goes and was usually aggravated by hard/long runs or workouts. And eventually you would see a little bump where the hernia is, though that can take a while (year or more) to present. Anyway, hopefully it is not that but something to keep in mind. And Brewing Runner gave some good advice; running should be above all something that adds happiness and health to your life. Whatever mileage or goals/lack of goals that involves then that's the way to go. Hope you can sort it out.

           

          Madison: Good luck this weekend!

           

          Weather: Smart plan to cut back and take some days off; that should pay off down the road.

           

          Swim: I was looking back at what you did training for the Flagstaff mile. Good stuff.  Any key workouts you recommend for 1-mile training?

           

          Cinnamon: That's a cool resolution to the AG placement for your marathon, glad it worked out. Looks like you're recovering well from the race.

           

          I've been travelling for work most of this week and had too much beer most nights so did not run as many days as intended, too hard to wake up early with the time change. Flying back tomorrow and will get back to more frequent running and less frequent drinking.

           

          Weekly Summary
          Monday, May 06, 2019 thru Sunday, May 12, 2019

          Day Miles Pace Description Egain Link
          Tue 14.0 7:46 MLR with 3 x 1 mile 701 strava
          Thu 12.1 8:07 Morning Run in Biberach 593 strava
          Sat 10.4 8:49 Lunch Run / Vienna 627 strava
          Sun 16.1 7:52 Long run in Vienna 713 strava

          I did a ton of 200s, 400s, 600 s at mile effort.  We also did a lot of all out hill reps.  Training for a race that short is hard work.  Funny thing is I was actually much speedier towards the end of my marathon cycle then I was focusing on the mile .  I had a 3:00 all out effort 2 weeks out from CIM where I hit the 800 in 2:17.  Have fun though it’s probably good to spin it a little faster from time to time.

          HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04

          Marky_Mark_17


            [and actually, that's a good question for the men here - if you beat another guy, but saw him given an award ahead of you, would you feel uncomfortable contacting the race management and asking them to double check the results?]

             

            I still feel a bit awkward when I talk about wanting to win, though I just move past it.  And, for the same reasons, I feel a bit of hesitation when contesting results that I believe are wrong.  But...this is ultimately a competition, and there is nothing wrong with asking that the rules be fairly enforced, and the awards fairly given.

             

             

            None whatsoever.

             

            I had a recent half marathon where - despite having live timing every km - the (very experienced) race director actually hadn't turned the finish mat on (one of the 2 most important ones!!!! Never mind the other 20).  They initially gave everyone estimated times based on extrapolating pace from the 20km mark.

             

            I had PR'ed by ~1 minute, and had watch time to go on (which was a few seconds slow due to finish line celebrations!) - but I wanted a proper official time.  Partly because it was a PR (and I knew my watch time was slow), and partly because the race (Waterfront HM) doubled as Auckland Half Marathon Championships and therefore the time would go on my Athletics NZ athlete ranking page - as my 'official' PR.

             

            The race director felt terrible about the whole thing and, unprompted, ended up manually going through timestamped finish line pictures and video for the top 20 runners so they got a proper official time - he was doing this literally as I emailed him to ask if there was any way of getting a correct official time and was supremely apologetic.

             

            This had me 3 seconds quicker than watch time (and 8 seconds vs. the 'unofficial' extrapolated time) and it was fully worth it.

            5000m: 16:03 (Dec-18) | 5km: 16:24 (Nov-18) | 10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) HM: 1:12:49 (Sep-19) | FM: 2:57:36 (Oct-17)

            Last race: NZ Road Relays (Leg 2 / 10.2km), 5 Oct, 35:10

            Up next: The Agency Group 10,000m, 9 Nov

            "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

            Nimmals


               

              Nimmals - what the hell did she do?? Even when I completely tore my hamstring I wasn't out for 6 months. Almost.

               

               

              Cinnamon - Stress fracture of the talus. she has immense pain still just beginning to run I had her wear orthotics she got 4 years ago never used.

               

              JMAC - If you show up for the corporate challenge you don't have to wait until the summer. I'll even help get you to the front of the corral.

               

              MiKey - Congrats on the win you old Turkey Buzzard  = (Not a spring chicken)

               

              Cinnamon/DW    You have every right to complain and $200 even if its Canadian can pay for some expense or a lovely massage. Id get them to rectify it before they start sending out checks. I have had issues with that even if you're in a different AG they can't do that. its Amateur. Ive had issues with that in the Pass. races want to enforce USATF rules about pacing I tell them where they can kiss.

               
               Most of my issues come with which rules race directors chose to enforce while ignoring others. USATF Rules says prizes are to be allowed double dipping yet very few race directors does it. Last year Kip won masters and open at the Peachtree 10K race took home all the cash. Two 1st place checks.  Thats the rules masters can double dip. Kevin Castille comes to my local 10K wins 4th and 1st master  cleans up the cash. while it pushes me to 2nd or 3rd. Do i bitch and groan, hell no I'm m ecstatic, not disappointed.

              Yet race directors tell me they don't want people getting upset because someone gets two awards. Screw their feelings its the rules for the national governing body. Screw people entitlement feelings. This is a grueling sport if you're in it you shouldn't have feelings. Maybe less feeling equals faster times and better wait for it Mental strength"

               
              Its funny the rules they choose to enforce and the ones they willfully ignore. Ive had beef I often will come in top Three then they try to give me 3rd Place cash. I'm like Masters cash is more, USATF rules also says I have the right of first refusal to take which ever is highest.

               
              I'm in a spat with a Race director on rule 144 she says its an unfair advantage if I have a guy pace my girls. Pacing is only unfair if they carry gels food or assist in anyway. I saw so many teams employ pacers at CIM for their ladies. Is pacing unauthorized assistance? How come in Europe and Japan they have pacers for women?

               
              Rule 144 ASSISTANCE TO ATHLETES
                  3. The following shall be considered examples of assistance:
                  (a) Pacing in running or walking events by persons not participating in the event, by competitors lapped or about to be lapped, or any kind of technical device other than those permitted under Rule 144.4 (d).

                  USATF Rule 144 (3) prohibits runners from using pacers that are not participating in the event.
                  You cannot be paced by a runner that is not participating in the event. You can also be disqualified if a registered runner jumps in after the start of the race to pace you for a portion of the event.
                  Non registered runners are not allowed on the course
                  If you receive unauthorized assistance, you risk disqualification


              Elite Jogger

                Mikkey: Congrats again on the W!  Any plans for a fall marathon or other races?

                 

                 

                Thanks JT and I hope you enjoyed your work trip! (some nice looking pics you posted on Strava last week). I registered for another marathon a while back (Richmond RunFest) on 15th September which is just outside London. But I might use it as a tune up run and enter the Frankfurt marathon as a possible goal race as that’s at the end of October which is an ideal date as I never like training hard during the summer.

                 

                Cinnamon - Glad you got that sorted, I like a bit of drama, but love a happy ending Smile

                5k - 17:53 (2019)   10k - 37:53 (2018)   Half - 1:23:18 (2019)   Full - 2:50:43 (2019)

                JMac11


                Benevolent Leader

                  If everyone doesn't mind, I have another training question as I'm new to high mileage 5K/10K training (steve you're probably a good one for this given your recent training):

                   

                  How do you guys race 5K/10K and still keep mileage up? I want to race a bunch of 5Ks as I've stated, but I want to keep my mileage up in the 70mpw range this summer since I have CIM coming up in December.

                   

                  Do you run long runs the day after the race, run a bunch of mileage directly after your race, or something else? I usually follow the rule of easy running for every 3K of a race, but it seems like a ton of folks run Saturday 5Ks and then long runs on Sunday, which normally I would view as an injury risk. So normally I might only run 7-10 miles the day of a 5K, and then 7-10 miles the next day, but I've seen people do 15+ the day afterwards.

                  5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                   

                  Next Race: Suffolk County Half Marathon (10/27/19)

                  weatherboy80


                    JMac:  I've always pretty much run fairly long on days after a 5K although I've never trained for a 5K/10K block.  Closest I came was my HM block in the fall where I ran a few "fast" 5K's as a result.

                    5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 36:09 (2/18)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)

                    Andres1045


                      If everyone doesn't mind, I have another training question as I'm new to high mileage 5K/10K training (steve you're probably a good one for this given your recent training):

                       

                      How do you guys race 5K/10K and still keep mileage up? I want to race a bunch of 5Ks as I've stated, but I want to keep my mileage up in the 70mpw range this summer since I have CIM coming up in December.

                       

                      Do you run long runs the day after the race, run a bunch of mileage directly after your race, or something else? I usually follow the rule of easy running for every 3K of a race, but it seems like a ton of folks run Saturday 5Ks and then long runs on Sunday, which normally I would view as an injury risk. So normally I might only run 7-10 miles the day of a 5K, and then 7-10 miles the next day, but I've seen people do 15+ the day afterwards.

                      I know this isn't really what you're putting up for debate, but I'd ask: why force yourself to stay in the 70s all summer?

                       

                      70 miles is a really big ask out of yourself during hot summer months. Add in intense 5k workouts and that will likely lead you back to an injury. You can improve a lot in the 5k on mileage in the 40s with one or two short intense workouts per week, plus a short-ish tempo. Beat the heat. Get back to 70+ starting in September. That's clearly shown to work in the past for you, why rock the boat now?

                       

                       

                      Based on your last half time, I think you have a good amount of work to do on your 5k (unless you could theoretically run a 16:30 5k right now or something in that neighborhood). You're 5k pace is probably quite close to your HMP. So you really don't need much more endurance work to see quick improvements in the 5k. And running 40-50 all summer will allow you to get right back to where you are currently with your endurance, and give you plenty of time to improve that prior to CIM.

                      Upcoming races:  I dunno.

                        How do you guys race 5K/10K and still keep mileage up?

                         

                         

                        I have done all of the following:

                        • Saturday 5k/10k / Sunday long run. For 5k's this is no issue at all, for a 10k you may need to take the long run a little easier or not, ymmv.
                        • Saturday long run / Sunday 5k. I have done this a couple of times and it went surprisingly well. I once ran about 15 seconds off my PR in a Sunday 5k the day after a 20 miler. People will tell you this is a bad idea. I found it to be a good experience, and taught me some things about racing in a fatigued state. I wouldn't do this for a goal 5k, obviously, but if you're training through anyway it can work.
                        • Warmup, + 5k to 10k race + long cool down to make it a long run. (I ran my lifetime 5k PR this way and accomplished a 10-year goal of breaking 17, 3 weeks before a goal marathon.
                        • Run a midweek 5k/10k and it just replaces one of your workouts and it's seamless. In New England there are a lot of good mid-week races in the summer including a few of weekly 5k series so this is easy to do but I know it's not like that everywhere.

                        Runners run.

                          BTW, JMac I think you're going to set a big PR (the first of many, most likely) in your next 5k. No pressure.

                          Runners run.

                          darkwave


                          Mother of Cats

                            So….any week I race is almost always a lower mileage week - I need several lighter days before a race to run well.  I have done the 5K on Saturday/long run on Sunday thing, but I keep the Sunday long run easy when I do (my long runs usually include a substantial amount of MP work).

                             

                            I've also tacked on a few extra miles during the cool-down post race, but I don't like to get too crazy with that, since there can be things that get aggravated during a race that don't show until the next day, when the adrenaline wears off.

                             

                            I also agree with Andres' point of "do you need to keep the miles up?"  I think cutting back a bit on mileage to race 5Ks then means that you get a nice stimulus when you up the mileage again for marathon training.  Kinda like weaning off of caffeine so that you get a boost.  I'm not saying that you want to cut them TOO low (again - that whole durability thing).  But gentle variation in weekly mileage over the course of a year is a good thing, in my book.

                             

                            Nimmals - one woman who BQ'd at CIM did get DQed for having a pacer (non-registered).

                             

                            [wow, that was a lot of acronyms for one sentence]

                             

                            I fall on the same side as you - enforce the rules.  Especially the USATF ones, if you claim to be running under those rules.

                             

                            Cinnamon - I'm glad they fixed things.

                             

                            Some crazy stories about malfunctioning finish mats.  That's why I always wear my Garmin, even though I don't look at it.  If the mats screw up or there's any question about whether I ran the course, I want to have that Garmin file to provide.

                             

                            I'll belatedly drop off last week, which was kinda boring - I took a break from the track for the week, so the only quality was some sluggish marathon pace running on Sunday.

                             

                            45 miles, 19 "miles"  of pool-running, and 1000 yards of swimming
                            M: 9 "miles" of pool-running.
                            T: 3 miles very easy (8:46), yoga, and then 5 miles very easy (8:27).  
                            W: Off except for some DIY yoga in the morning.  [Colonoscopy in the morning]
                            Th: Upper body weights/core and 10 "miles" of pool-running.
                            F: 7 miles easy (8:56), yoga, and then 5 miles very easy (8:37), plus drills/strides
                            Sa:  10 miles very easy (8:48), drills, strides, and upper body weights/core.
                            Su: 14.5 miles - first 8 averaging 8:29, next 6 averaging 6:54, and then a half-mile cool-down.  Followed with light leg strengthwork and 1000 yards recovery swimming.

                            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                             

                            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                            steve_


                            powered by plants

                              If everyone doesn't mind, I have another training question as I'm new to high mileage 5K/10K training (steve you're probably a good one for this given your recent training):

                               

                              How do you guys race 5K/10K and still keep mileage up? I want to race a bunch of 5Ks as I've stated, but I want to keep my mileage up in the 70mpw range this summer since I have CIM coming up in December.

                               

                              Do you run long runs the day after the race, run a bunch of mileage directly after your race, or something else? I usually follow the rule of easy running for every 3K of a race, but it seems like a ton of folks run Saturday 5Ks and then long runs on Sunday, which normally I would view as an injury risk. So normally I might only run 7-10 miles the day of a 5K, and then 7-10 miles the next day, but I've seen people do 15+ the day afterwards.

                               

                              When races are Saturday, I generally will do a LR of 14-16 the next day.  Normally, I feel MUCH better the day after a short race than I do two days after, so running 15 the next day usually feels nice.  Last week was an exception because the weather was so terrible on Sunday so I only did 12.  But 70 mpw is 10 a day, which to me doesn't see like a lot.  Also, if you're racing a 5 or 10k on the weekend, there is no reason why Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday (even Thursday) have to be super short easy days.  Easy doubles early in the week make 70 attainable even on race weeks.

                              5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

                              *downhill AF

                              darkwave


                              Mother of Cats

                                  Also, if you're racing a 5 or 10k on the weekend, there is no reason why Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday (even Thursday) have to be super short easy days.  Easy doubles early in the week make 70 attainable even on race weeks.

                                 

                                Different people recover in different ways, I guess.   If I'm racing on the weekend, Wednesday and Thursday need to be shorter - I usually do 8 and 4 on Wednesdays, but will reduce to 7-8 miles total.  And if it's a Saturday race, then I need to pull back on my Tuesday workout as well.  And...if the race really matters to me, I keep my long run to 12 or less the weekend before.

                                 

                                I've tried doing it the other way, and my racing does suffer if I don't pull back, and pull back early in the week, rather than waiting until Friday.  At the same time, I also need to do some quality running two days before the race - many others don't need that.

                                 

                                Speaking more generally, I've read some mention of frontloading weeks to make sure one hits the weekly mileage total even with the race.  I've honestly never gotten this - the body doesn't understand or respond to a certain number hit within an arbitrary time period.  The body responds to the interplay and balance of stress and recovery.  And when one front loads miles early in the week, I worry that the stress-recovery balance gets tipped.

                                Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                                 

                                And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.