2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 528 times)

darkwave


Mother of Cats

    Yikes - what a blazing fast first 5K?  Makes sense with the downhill, but I don't know of anyone (in my limited sample size) that has been able to sustain that time without falling apart later.  You'd also have to be really accustomed to lots of downhill quad banging on many of your runs during the training cycle to try and do this.  I'm definitely going out more conservative than this Wink  If that means giving up a minute or two oh well, but I want to be able to have actual legs left in those last 5-6 miles.  

     

    The problem with those predictors is that they only consider the aerobic needs of each mile, and not the toll that running downhill places on the quads.  You have to factor for both to run a net downhill course well.

     

    That's also why overall fitness is not perfectly correlated to performance at Boston.  It's entirely possible that person A would destroy person B at Chicago, but person B will run faster at Boston, if person B is better prepped for the terrain and handles the pounding better.

    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

     

    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

    finbad


      Weatherboy - I agree and can't imagine going out that hard. I'd rather be able to some people and feel like I'm able to close hard than perfect pacing even if I loose a bit of time.

      Upcoming; 3rd May Scottish 5k champs, 9th May Helensburgh 10k, 16th May Dumbarton 10k, 24th May Monument mile, 26th May Shettleston 10k, 1st June Killearn trail 10, 2nd June Milngavie trail race, 16th June 7 hills of Edinburgh, 12th October TAMA half marathon, 27th October Leeds Abbey dash 10k

      JMac11


      Benevolent Leader

        Yeah that pacing is a complete disaster. That's how you blow up your marathon in the first 5 miles. This is from findmymarathon using even effort, even start, so not conservatism at the start. Also, that pacing you put up has a pretty damn big positive split, that is not the goal.

         

        <center>Mile</center> <center>Split</center> <center>Elapsed</center>
        1 05:58 0:05:58
        2 06:02 0:12:01
        3 06:02 0:18:03
        4 06:01 0:24:04
        5 06:09 0:30:13

        5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 35:59 (3/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

         

        Next Race: Grete's Great Gallop 10K (10/5/19)

        Andres1045


          I have a hard time really commenting on pacing strategies for times that fast. But I am comfortable saying this: while an "aggressive start and hold on strategy" is normally a bad idea in any marathon, it's a terrible idea for Boston. If you miss 2:40, it's extremely unlikely that the reason was you left 20s on the table in the first mile going out in 6:15 instead of 5:55. I think dcv did the first mile slower than 7 when he ran a 2:48 there.

          Upcoming races:  I dunno.

          weatherboy80


            Agree and I also find that my proper marathon pace (effort level) is something I have to work at early on before I get into the flow so the first bit really serves as a warmup for what is to come.  There is much more to lose in running the downhill faster than gaining 15-20s early on.

            5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 36:09 (2/18)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)

            Brewing Runner


            Cat Disliker

              So, other than darkwave who has some crazy ability to start slow and finish strong, why not run Boston, or any other marathon at something other than an even race pace +/- a 5 seconds?

              How would you pick a pacing strategy for a rolling hills marathon course vs downhill vs flat so you don't blow up in the final miles?

              For simplicity let us assume equal race day weather and not some Boston 2018 weather or Chicago 2010 weather (60-80F 70% humidity).

               

              Since I've almost always gone out at race pace it is just like running by effort so I'm curious to know how others do it. I guess I always thought people picked a goal, stuck to race pace and beat their goal by a strong finish/race day performance not a pacing strategy.

              1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

              5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

              10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

              Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

              Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

              Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

              *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

               

              2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

               

              M_M_C


                I wouldn't call it a crazy ability, it's just smart racing!

                 

                So, other than darkwave who has some crazy ability to start slow and finish strong, why not run Boston, or any other marathon at something other than an even race pace +/- a 5 seconds?

                 

                 

                If you're worried about going out too fast and paying for it later, your best bet is to take at least the first few miles at a conservative pace. I'm not a strong believer of doing much running warm up (other than a light jog and drills), so I treat those first two miles as a warm up anyway. Then work into race pace over the next few miles.

                 

                From people I have spoken to, going out too fast on the downhill miles at Boston will ruin you. Here are the splits from someone who ran close to a 2:40 equivalent (in last years conditions):

                 

                1 Interval 1 mi 6:31.94 6:31.94 6:32 151 186  
                2 Interval 1 mi 6:07.16 12:39.10 6:08 179 197  
                3 Interval 1 mi 5:57.20 18:36.30 5:58 176 185 5k 19:11
                4 Interval 1 mi 5:56.38 24:32.68 5:57 182 191  
                5 Interval 1 mi 6:02.15 30:34.83 6:03 180 188  
                6 Interval 1 mi 6:02.15 36:36.98 6:03 179 192 10k 37:54
                7 Interval 1 mi 6:03.23 42:40.21 6:04 184 195  
                8 Interval 1 mi 6:08.01 48:48.22 6:09 185 197  
                9 Interval 1 mi 6:07.77 54:55.99 6:08 182 196 15k 56:51
                10 Interval 1 mi 6:07.05 1:01:03.04 6:08 177 190  
                11 Interval 1 mi 6:11.20 1:07:14.24 6:12 179 193  
                12 Interval 1 mi 5:58.80 1:13:13.04 5:59 180 194 20k 75:51
                13 Interval 1 mi 6:02.19 1:19:15.23 6:03 180 189 HM 79:57
                14 Interval 1 mi 6:10.70 1:25:25.93 6:11 186 199  
                15 Interval 1 mi 6:17.47 1:31:43.40 6:18 146 192 25k 1:34:58
                16 Interval 1 mi 5:57.94 1:37:41.34 5:58 115 148  
                17 Interval 1 mi 6:20.56 1:44:01.90 6:21 110 138  
                18 Interval 1 mi 6:18.95 1:50:20.85 6:19 144 154 30k 1:54:29
                19 Interval 1 mi 6:10.21 1:56:31.06 6:11 181 194  
                20 Interval 1 mi 6:23.38 2:02:54.44 6:24 184 192  
                21 Interval 1 mi 6:41.93 2:09:36.37 6:42 127 191 35k 2:14:33
                22 Interval 1 mi 6:14.26 2:15:50.63 6:15 95 109  
                23 Interval 1 mi 6:23.09 2:22:13.72 6:24 98 119  
                24 Interval 1 mi 6:21.10 2:28:34.82 6:22 96 111 40k 2:34:39
                25 Interval 1 mi 6:40.36 2:35:15.18 6:41 94 111  
                26 Interval 1 mi 6:49 2:42:04.18 6:49 95 112  
                27 Interval 0.3 mi 1:52.36 2:43:56.54 6:15 97 107

                3K: 8:29.12 (2017)     5K: 14:56.59 (2016)     8K: 25:27 (2016)     15K: 54:46.2 (2019)     FM: 2:58:48 (2019)

                Swim5599


                  So, other than darkwave who has some crazy ability to start slow and finish strong, why not run Boston, or any other marathon at something other than an even race pace +/- a 5 seconds?

                  How would you pick a pacing strategy for a rolling hills marathon course vs downhill vs flat so you don't blow up in the final miles?

                  For simplicity let us assume equal race day weather and not some Boston 2018 weather or Chicago 2010 weather (60-80F 70% humidity).

                   

                  Since I've almost always gone out at race pace it is just like running by effort so I'm curious to know how others do it. I guess I always thought people picked a goal, stuck to race pace and beat their goal by a strong finish/race day performance not a pacing strategy.

                  I very rarely pick a time goal.  In good conditions I can usually find what I think is possible on that day pretty early and then negative split my way there. I’ve negative split 5 of 7 of them and one the misses was a 75 second positive split in Boston in 2015.  Poor conditions I am awful however

                  HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04

                  Brewing Runner


                  Cat Disliker

                    I wouldn't call it a crazy ability, it's just smart racing!

                     

                     

                    If you're worried about going out too fast and paying for it later, your best bet is to take at least the first few miles at a conservative pace. I'm not a strong believer of doing much running warm up (other than a light jog and drills), so I treat those first two miles as a warm up anyway. Then work into race pace over the next few miles.

                     

                    From people I have spoken to, going out too fast on the downhill miles at Boston will ruin you. Here are the splits from someone who ran close to a 2:40 equivalent (in last years conditions):

                     

                    So how would you extend this to a race like CIM, Chicago, Portland or Nashville marathon? Start all of them conservatively and just adjust the overall goal? Do you just happen to know what pace you'd want to run overall, or just run by feel that day?

                    1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                    5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                    10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                    Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                    Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                    Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

                    *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

                     

                    2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

                     


                    Elite Jogger

                      I very rarely pick a time goal.  In good conditions I can usually find what I think is possible on that day pretty early and then negative split my way there. I’ve negative split 5 of 7 of them and one the misses was a 75 second positive split in Boston in 2015.  Poor conditions I am awful however

                       

                      I thought you ran by power now which is supposed to be pretty accurate, so you must have a time goal in your head when it’s reasonable weather conditions. You negative split because you go out a lot slower than what your training paces indicate. That obviously works for you.

                      5k - 17:53 (2019)   10k - 37:53 (2018)   Half - 1:23:18 (2019)   Full - 2:50:43 (2019)

                      JMac11


                      Benevolent Leader

                        Yeah I will say that I've stopped negative splitting as much recently because I have a much better view of my fitness going into races. When I ran NY 2 years ago and negative split for a 2:54, I was just trying to break 3:00 so it was easy to negative split. I find this more evident in a half marathon: if you're not on the edge by mile 8 thinking "I've got nothing left" then you're running too slowly. Nobody should feel "great" past the 10K mark in a half. I would say the same is probably true in a full. If you feel good at mile 20, you ran too slowly. At best, you should think "I don't feel completely spent" which means you ran the first 20 well.

                         

                        Brew - having spoken (written?) with you a bunch, I still think you're too hung up on running exact paces and not learning what marathon pace, or honestly any pace, feels like. Once you get better at that, you won't be worrying about what the hills do to your pace. I know that I'm going to shoot for something like 6:05-6:10 pace in Boston, but if an uphill leads to a 6:20, I don't start panicking. I also don't go into this hill thinking "well, this is an uphill, so I need to run my pace times 1.0411 based on calculations I did earlier." It's just like running easy pace: you let the uphills take you where they will, while making sure not to fly down the downhills to protect your quads early in a race. I am telling myself not to go faster than 5:55 not because I'm pacing things out perfectly, but because I want to avoid the trap of going too fast in the early miles of Boston. I also know that if by mile 8-10, I'm running 6:15-6:20, that I won't intentionally try to speed up because my body is clearly telling me that my goals were too aggressive or I'm just having an off day. You shouldn't be running any marathon with each mile perfectly paced out, which is why I think pace bands are garbage and should be ignored at all costs, unless you are running a 100% flat marathon like Chicago and feel you need the band to "motivate" you if you're falling behind pace late in the race.

                        5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 35:59 (3/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                         

                        Next Race: Grete's Great Gallop 10K (10/5/19)

                        Brewing Runner


                        Cat Disliker

                          Yeah I will say that I've stopped negative splitting as much recently because I have a much better view of my fitness going into races. When I ran NY 2 years ago and negative split for a 2:54, I was just trying to break 3:00 so it was easy to negative split. I find this more evident in a half marathon: if you're not on the edge by mile 8 thinking "I've got nothing left" then you're running too slowly. Nobody should feel "great" past the 10K mark in a half. I would say the same is probably true in a full. If you feel good at mile 20, you ran too slowly. At best, you should think "I don't feel completely spent" which means you ran the first 20 well.

                           

                          Brew - having spoken (written?) with you a bunch, I still think you're too hung up on running exact paces and not learning what marathon pace, or honestly any pace, feels like. Once you get better at that, you won't be worrying about what the hills do to your pace. I know that I'm going to shoot for something like 6:05-6:10 pace in Boston, but if an uphill leads to a 6:20, I don't start panicking. I also don't go into this hill thinking "well, this is an uphill, so I need to run my pace times 1.0411 based on calculations I did earlier." It's just like running easy pace: you let the uphills take you where they will, while making sure not to fly down the downhills to protect your quads early in a race. I am telling myself not to go faster than 5:55 not because I'm pacing things out perfectly, but because I want to avoid the trap of going too fast in the early miles of Boston. I also know that if by mile 8-10, I'm running 6:15-6:20, that I won't intentionally try to speed up because my body is clearly telling me that my goals were too aggressive or I'm just having an off day. You shouldn't be running any marathon with each mile perfectly paced out, which is why I think pace bands are garbage and should be ignored at all costs, unless you are running a 100% flat marathon like Chicago and feel you need the band to "motivate" you if you're falling behind pace late in the race.

                           

                          I'm just trying to learn more  aspects of marathon training. Instead of thinking my way is the way everyone does it I start trying to incorporate other ways of doing things instead of taking the "well that works for you" strategy. Kind of like running by feel hasn't been impossible, I see how it becomes important, but I'd never had tried it without someone(s) throwing it out there as an option. Going into a marathon with no time goal seems foreign because I've always had a time goal so I thought it was what everyone did. Having a max pace not to exceed so I don't blow up makes sense. Having that "I don't feel spent" around mile 20 makes sense. Even allowing a little bit of slow down on hills makes sense as long as I know I'm still on time to hit a goal I set. This became evident during one of my CIM runs where I was going too hard on some downhills and was outside what I thought was a controlled pace for that mile or point of the race.

                          Finding out what I feel is possible on the day of a race....totally foreign concept. Even planning a negative or positive split is foreign so the "how do you plan that kind of thing" is what I'm after. I have yet to even attempt running a marathon starting slower than goal race pace and speeding up at the end, or even running one with no specific finish time goal. Something I'm interested in learning about. Almost like I should join a group instead of trust a bunch of "strangers" online. 

                           

                          EDIT: While I read a lot and try a lot I'm not expecting to be a sub 3 runner because I do things the way the sub 3 people do it. It's just a new part of running that lets me know I don't know everything, and maybe some day I can be a sub 3 or I can pass it on to non-online friends.

                          1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                          5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                          10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                          Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                          Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                          Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

                          *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

                           

                          2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

                           

                          JMac11


                          Benevolent Leader

                            Yeah I think it's a bit different for people shooting for very specific times, e.g. BQ or OTQ, where this sort of planning is absolutely crucial. You fit in that BQ bucket, so I get why you think that way. Most of us here aren't really shooting for anything like that going forward. More people blow up because they shoot for a specific time goal than probably any other reason.

                             

                            As long as you learn how to run by feel in training, then you're good to go.

                            5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 35:59 (3/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                             

                            Next Race: Grete's Great Gallop 10K (10/5/19)

                            Brewing Runner


                            Cat Disliker

                              Yeah I think it's a bit different for people shooting for very specific times, e.g. BQ or OTQ, where this sort of planning is absolutely crucial. You fit in that BQ bucket, so I get why you think that way. Most of us here aren't really shooting for anything like that going forward. More people blow up because they shoot for a specific time goal than probably any other reason.

                               

                              As long as you learn how to run by feel in training, then you're good to go.

                               

                              Yeah, not having a time goal is foreign. Even running without checking my calculated mile pace still seems foreign but I see why it's important as well as signs indicating I'm going to fast (see last Thursday) or the body doesn't know it's 20 mph winds and cold vs hot. Learning more about the running by feel, or how people approach different courses, is probably more beneficial for me right now and it seems logical to me to ask the people faster than me. I'm sure there are 3:30 runners who would look at me like "you don't do that?" Going out at 6:30 pace and feeling good around mile 10 to pick it up to a 6:15 for the next 16 miles just seems crazy but I guess that is a thing.

                              1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                              5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                              10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                              Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                              Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                              Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

                              *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

                               

                              2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

                               

                              JMac11


                              Benevolent Leader

                                In non tapering news, tried some Maurten gels during my LT workout today. They’re great! My favorite thing ABOUT them is that you don’t really have to dissolve/chew them before swallowing, plus that they’re not as messy. Definitely ordering a box now to arrive in time before Boston. I think I also will try to eat 4 of these during the race, so actually going the opposite of what I said a few weeks ago (which was eating fewer gels). These are just so easy to get down I don’t know why I wouldn’t go up one gel.

                                 

                                Now I just need to figure out if I want to take electrolyte pills during the race, because I’m avoiding Gatorade at all costs. There’s some sodium in the gels but not sure it’s enough.

                                5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 35:59 (3/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                                 

                                Next Race: Grete's Great Gallop 10K (10/5/19)